Who has been to Eastern Europe with small children?

[udonandbroth]

I need all the advice you can give me. What did you do about car seats? Long airplane/train rides? diapers? am I missing anything here? any advice/tips/info would be much appreciated!

I hope this is the right forum.

[EVC]

Well, I gave birth to dd in Eastern Europe if that counts But we left when she was about 6 weeks old, so my experience is somewhat limited. We didn't have a carseat--I never even saw one where we were--but we only had to take her in the car twice (once in a cab home from the hospital, and then a cab to the airport when we moved). Both times I held her in a sling in the back seat and worried a lot. Disposable diapers are sold everywhere--cloth might be a hassle depending on where you are going and how long you are staying because many people in Eastern Europe don't have washing machines (so you might have to handwash them). Also, depending on where you are going and where you are staying, many places turn off the hot water in summer and some places (such as where we were living) don't have any water at all much of the day and at night (we had about three hours of water in the morning, then three hours in the evening). If you are staying at a nice hotel, however, then you shouldn't have to worry about any of that. The plane ride was indeed VERY long, but since dd was stilll pretty much a newborn, I just slinged her and she slept a lot of the way--with an older child it would obviously be more challenging to keep them entertained, but there were quite a few kids on our flight and aside from a few tears, they did OK.

DOCUMENTS!!! You need everything! Well, obviously a passport and maybe a visa depending on the country. But when we were leaving, they also required her birth certificate and our marriage license. I hope you are travelling with dh (baby's father)--otherwise you will need a document giving his permission for you to travel with your dc.

[udonandbroth]

Thanks for the info. We will be going to Russia this winter so I know it's a long way off but I just wanted to get people's advice so I know what to plan for (like if I need to buy anything I have to do it now, in the summertime, while we have extra money!) I am just having visions of having to lug three car seats, a stroller, packages of diapers and god know what other baby related stuff through airports and trains plus luggage! don't know if I am just going to have to forget the whole car seat situation... We'll be staying at my mother-in-laws in a large-ish city, so she has a washer but it is good to know that they have disposables for sale, too. Then to Minsk, Belarus to visit dh's brother. I have never been to any eastern block country, aside from the former east Germany (which hardly counts), so I have no idea what to expect.

Any and all advice is welcome from anyone.

[velochic]

We have. And I used to live in Russia pre-baby. First of all, about the carseats... even if you bring them, you won't be able to use them. Depending on where you're going, public transportation will be your likely method of transportation. Taxis do not even have seatbelts in the back seats most of the time, and the taxi drivers wouldn't wait for you to put the seats in. Also, you couldn't install them properly anyway without one of those T-shaped seatbelt locks, which take 5 minutes or more to install. Plus, they probably wouldn't fit into the smaller EE cars. I'm one of the few people on here that would say that taking carseats is a waste of time and effort. Even the idea of using them on a plane is overwhelming. They take up so much room in an already cramped area, you can't use the tray table to play and getting them on and off the plane is a PITA.

By flying internationally, you will probably be able to get seatbelt extenders for your baby to sit on your lap during take off and landing. That is, it is their own seatbelt that loops through and attaching TO yours (they are not in the same loop of seatbelt that you are in... that would crush them). Toddlers and up sit very comfortably and safely in the regular seat belt.

Be prepared to have strangers fondling your baby. Especially old babushkas that love babies... they are constantly pinching cheeks and touching feet and peeking in slings and strollers. OTOH, be prepared to make cultural mistakes and get yelled at by those very same babushkas that were just fondling your child.

The food is different - try everything because it is a very wonderful and delicious cuisine. Lots of pickled stuff, which can give gas. I guess just keep an open mind (it will be RADICALLY different than the US), try to learn some Russian if you can... they love it when foreigners put forth an effort to speak the language (my degree is in Russian, so being fluent was a godsend). Oh, and keep a keen eye on your purse/wallet/belongings and your surroundings. Pickpockets are everywhere, as are gypsies that do this little trick where the little kids distract you while the older kids take your belongings. Oh, one more thing... there is a mixed opinion of Americans, so you may find you get a warm welcome from some, while others hate you.

What ages are your kids that are going?

[Alana]

I know a couple who are living in Russia right now..with 2 young children....I will PM you their blog.

heehee...I love babushkas!! We are Orthodox, and have run into quite a few. Once we were visiting a Romanain Orthodox Church....a babushka came up to me said something in Romanian while gesturing to my 1yo. I said "huh?" She said "You no speaka no ROMANIAN!!!" I said no...she said BAH!!

Yes...I got a BAH! LOL! But, yes...they do love children...and often give them candy as well.

I love Russian culture and history. Im slightly jealous too. LOL!

[PrairieBohemian]

arg, my post just disappeared. I'll try again.

We came to Canada from Kyiv, Ukraine when I was 5 months pregnant with ds and we went back to visit when he was 13 months. There is no dount that the worst part of the trip was the fact that he got his days and nights reversed for about 10 days. This was HELL. The plane ride wasn't too fun either--20 hours of travel and 10 time zones (we were flying from Western Canada). It was impossible to get comfortable and sleep with him on my lap so when we got there, we were so so so so so so so so so so I repeat so exhausted. I strongly suggest resisting the temptation to rush out and see people/sites and get as much rest as possible, whenever possible, until everyones sleep patterns harmonize.

I agree with everyone else about carseats. I doubt there is even a word for carseat in Russian/Ukrainian. I never even saw one in the 2 years I lived in Ukraine. I'd say work on developing your FAITH that you won't get in an accident. The cabs are shaky and the drivers shakier. I did find that people took drunk driving VERY seriously and I think impaired driving rates are very low (at least in Ukraine--its zero tolerance). So this made me feel a little safer.

Babushkas really didn't like me carrying my son on my back. They keep telling me I was destroying my back and that my baby was suffocating. I pretended I didn't understand and made it look like I was thanking them for their advice--I found that to be easiest.

All this being said, our trip went pretty smoothly. We were in Kyiv and Prague for a month. Prague was much more comfortable (obviously) but we did pretty well in Ukraine. We had access to a washing machine which made all the difference.

There are some real treats foodwise in Eastern Europe. At least in Ukraine (prob Russia) there is a fermented drink a little like a cross between root beer and real beer called KVAS. It is so incredibly delicious and is sold out of barrels on the street and you can buy it in stores in the winter. Its low alcohol (1-2%) and very refreshing. KEFIR is also delcious--a milk product akin to buttermilk. And the cakes (tortes) are fantastic. Oh my pregnant mouth is so lonely for Ukrainian food... and I am not talking about the western idea of perogies.

oh and EVC is right! DOCUMENTS! Have EVEYTHING as complete as possible. Get the birth certificate that lists both parents. Carry photocopies with you at all times. It will make everything easier should a problem occur.

Do you best to relax and enjoy Eastern Europe. Everything is dirt cheap and the spirituality and family values of the people is a nice break from capitalism.

I am so jealous and already planning our trip back to Ukraine next spring. We'll be with a 1 and 3 year old then--should be a little more challenging but I'm up for it!

You'll be shaking your head a lot at some of the logic, or absense of it rather. Example: we went to a train station to buy tickets but were told that because it was international and we didn't have our passports on us, we had to PHONE in our request. So we walked outsdie the building to a pay phone and tried to call to the inside of the building but the line was busy for over an hour. You just have to laugh...there is no point in getting frustrated as it won't change anything.

Oh yeh, and there is NO SUCH THING as "the customer is always right"

Good luck and keep us updated!

[EVC]

Be prepared to have strangers fondling your baby. Especially old babushkas that love babies... they are constantly pinching cheeks and touching feet and peeking in slings and strollers.

But you don't have to let them! There is actually a fairly common Russian superstition that strange old women who try to look at your baby can give them the evil eye. So even when they try, you have a culturally acceptable "out" when you turn away. My (UKrainian) dh actually used to get really annoyed when I wasn't forceful enough turning the baby away from old women

OTOH, be prepared to make cultural mistakes and get yelled at by those very same babushkas that were just fondling your child.

Yes, you will get A LOT of crap if you use a sling. Or if it's cold and your baby isn't coverred from head to toe in fur and wrapped in 27 wool blankets (sorry, that's a bit of an MIL vent on my part ).

There are some real treats foodwise in Eastern Europe. At least in Ukraine (prob Russia) there is a fermented drink a little like a cross between root beer and real beer called KVAS.

Oy, I'm not a Kvas fan--except in okroshka (but that's a summer thing). But, yes, there is some great food. HOWEVER be very careful about what you feed your kids. Best to get bottled water (not from the tap), watch out for unpasturized milk, and wash and cook everything thoroughly. I have gotten some nasty food poisoning in Russia/Ukraine (and I'm a vegetarian, so it wasn't even from spoiled meat). Also, in winter people will probably offer you things like jarred mushrooms--be very careful! My (Russian) friend's mother actually got botulism (?) and died from eating mushrooms that had been improperly preserved

[EVC]

I agree with everyone else about carseats. I doubt there is even a word for carseat in Russian/Ukrainian. I never even saw one in the 2 years I lived in Ukraine

LOL, after we moved to the US and bought a carseat, dh took pictures of it and sent them to his brother (in Ukraine). He got a huge LAUGH out of the whole idea of them (and he has a 5 year old dd AND he works as a driver). So, yeah, car seats aren't too common.

[PrairieBohemian]

Originally Posted by EVC

Also, in winter people will probably offer you things like jarred mushrooms--be very careful! My (Russian) friend's mother actually got botulism (?) and died from eating mushrooms that had been improperly preserved

Yes, yes, do watch out for the mushrooms. Mushrooms absorb radiation readily so I would be especially concerned in Belarus. People are so poor they will sell ANYTHING on the street.

oh right--if you REALLY want a challenge, try being VEGAN in an Easter European country. There is a great scene in the movie "Everything is Illuminated" about how Ukrainians take vegetarians. Its definately worth watching the movie before going--it makes me miss my second home.

[VelmaLou]

First, velochic, "gypsies" are known as Rom -- at least most of them are Rom.

I've never had a baboushka try to touch my baby. Strange. They do smile and babble at her quite a bit, though. She's usually pretty well bundled up, though. And they've never seen a Moby Wrap! I get more grief in other CIS countries.

And I've travelled several times alone with dd1 (and once with both) and I've never needed to have permission from dh (and dd1 looks nothing like me and has dh's last name). The immigration officers just call her name to make sure she answers to her name (makes me so nervous sometimes 'cause dd gets distracted sometimes).

It's funny that poster said things are dirt cheap here. I consider it more expensive than Paris here! Where I was before? Now that was dirt cheap. But you can find self-service restaurants here in Kyiv that are good and inexpensive -- my dh, my dd and I ate for less than 10 bucks at lunch on Saturday. But we've also been stuck for $50 for a simple lunch. If you're outside Moscow, things should be reasonable. But a coffee in Moscow can cost you up to $10.

One can purchase all the major brands of disposables -- even in the small towns. In smaller towns you'll have to find a pharmacy.

I have no advice for long airplane trips. Just get through it. I have had dream trips and nightmare trips.

We don't have a carseat. I take taxis sometimes, and a wrap is good for that. Sorry, but I've been living in the CIS for four years now. We did have one for our car in the last place, though.

Minsk is pretty much like any other place in terms of product availability and restaurants (they even have a McDonald's -- ironic, no?). But things are eery there. You could be followed, have pictures taken of you, etc. But there are some cool things to see. There are some highly creative and talented people there.

[MamaBug]

Moving this to Childhood Years

[PrairieBohemian]

VelmaLou! You are in Kyiv right now! WOW! How long have you been there? What do you do there? What is your citizenship?

I think the reason I perceive Ukraine as dirt cheap is because I lived as a local, not as an ex-pat. I didn't visit any English speaking bars and the fanciest restaurant we would go to was Puzhata Hata (OMG it is yummmy--and not to expensive). I bought my veggies on the street and not from Bessarovka. I rarely had any relations with non-Ukrainians so I found things like hot smoked fish to be so cheap compared to prices out here in the Canadian prairies. My husband and I rented our own flat and lived reasonably comfortably on his $400US/month salary. That wouldn't even cover our rent here!!!

I personally didn't have any problems with documents but a friend of mine who was Ukr-Can had issues with proving fatherhood of her daughter when leaving Ukraine. Its such a gamble, I suppose.

Ukraine is amazing. I wish I was there right now...

[mata]

I've traveled through Poland and Belarus with a little one. I know the airport in Warsaw has a family room where you can sit and nurse, the kids can stretch their legs away from the crowds-other airports offer this & you might want to check if you need it. The long flights work best when taking the redeye-the kids sleep the whole way. I just pack a few toys they haven't seen before and that always keeps them busy. Carry on a change of clothes for them, and for you. Car seats were a problem-we brought ours, but my dh's family's car didn't have operational seatbelts in the backseat, sigh. Something to be aware of, after reading the observations about mushrooms, is that many people have different standards about food preparation, refrigeration, etc. My MIL would use the same knives and cutting boards for meats and vegetables, and would let uncooked food sit out. I ate a lot of yogurt (excellent yogurt in eastern europe, at least. )

[VelmaLou]

Hey arboriamoon!

We avoid expat restaurants like the plague, too. We just wanted to try a middle-eastern restaurant that one time we got such a high bill. But, for me, after living in a very, very cheap country, Ukraine is very expensive. Even Puzhata Hata is more expensive than the places we usually go. We've found some nice places down in Podil. And, yah, we go to the market at Lyukan'ivska -- by marshroutka! I guess we're not much like other expats. I don't know any who take the metro, for example.

We've been here since January. Dh works on a project in Belarus. Can't say more. I'm a full-time mama.

I wanted to say something about Russia and the hatred factor mentioned: I would 100% prefer to be a white American in Russia than a native Russian speaking Tadjik, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Uzbek or any other color than white.

[udonandbroth]

Hey you guys- I am loving every minute of reading about all of your experiences. Thank you thank you thank you! We will be flying to Moscow first, then taking a train to Minsk, than back to Moscow, then taking a train to Saransk and finally a train back to Moscow to fly home. I am so excited about this trip and here it is six months away and I am already posting about it

I've got to get going on my Russian! I probably know about 50 or 60 words, which really isn't going to get me very far. My MIL and other relatives speak no English so I've got to get going with the kids, too. what are your best tips for teaching the kids? My husband, who is the native speaker here, will not innitate the process, which would make my life a while lot easier :P So I kind of have to do it myself:

I would love to hear more about vegan experiences over there. We're macrobiotic, which includes fish but other than that we don't eat meat, chicken or other dairy (thought I am going to be somewhat flexiable on the dairy part because I am greatly anticipating those famous tortes!)

[EVC]

There is a great scene in the movie "Everything is Illuminated" about how Ukrainians take vegetarians. Its definately worth watching the movie before going--it makes me miss my second home

I just got this movie--I can't wait to watch it

taking a train to Minsk

Buy your tickets earlier to make sure you all get a compartment together. SV is generally more comfortable but only has two beds in the compartment. Since there are four (?) of you, just get a whole compartment in coupee, then you can all be together and close the door

I personally didn't have any problems with documents but a friend of mine who was Ukr-Can had issues with proving fatherhood of her daughter when leaving Ukraine. Its such a gamble, I suppose.

It is a gamble, that's why it's better to have too many documents than too few. I never travelled without dh so it wasn't an issue (although, as I mentioned, they looked at the baby's passports, my passport, dh's passport, then matched the names with those on the birth certificate, then examined our marriage license for some reason....). But I have seen others deal with a lot of crap in passport control when travelling alone with children. So it's best to be prepared

It's funny that poster said things are dirt cheap here.

I agree, especially in Kyiv. Our rent was cheap (about $200/month), but everything else was pretty expensive. We lived on about $800/month but that was with the majority of our food coming from the dacha. We almost never ate out. Toiletries, clothes, the occasional video add up pretty quickly. Of course, it's still a lot cheaper than where we live now. But, yes, if you go out to restaurants, clubs, etc--VERY expensive.

Puzhata Hata (OMG it is yummmy--and not to expensive).

Puzata hata When it first opened it was so good! Over the months, however, there was definitely a decline in quality and the prices starting inching up. But still a good deal

[udonandbroth]

guys- do documents need to be translated?

We actually watched Everything is Illuminated last night The potato scene was hilarious!!

[EVC]

guys- do documents need to be translated?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is no. Airport personnel are usually familiar with the documents and can recognize latin letters enough to at least read names. And your passports will have the correct spellings of your names, anyway--so as long as all of the docs match up, you should be fine.

[EVC]

One more thing about the train--bring food and bottled water (or juice, etc). You can buy tea and coffee (and sometimes cookies), but that's about it. Sometimes there is a restaurant car, but not always. And even if there is, the food is generally crappy and overpriced. So it's a good idea to have at least some bread, fruits, and veggies with you that you can snack on.

[PrairieBohemian]

Yeh, I wouldn't worry about translating documents. Most people can read Latin characters--all my husbands international documents use English. If you look organized and prepared, I am sure everything will be ok. The Ukr-Canadian girl I was talking about is a total scatterbrain so I am sure she drew a lot of attention to herself.

As for being vegan in Ukraine, lets just say it broke me. I had been vegan for about 3 years prior to living in Ukraine and it was very very difficult to maintain my diet there. Ukrainians take their food celebrations very seriously and I found I inadvertantly offended many people by refusing certain dishes. The same goes for alcohol. We were travelling with my mom through western Ukraine to visit relatives and were presented with huge celebratory meals constantly. This always involves vodka or at very least, wine. My mom is in AA and when we told our relatives that she didn't drink, they said "oh, ok. Then pour her some wine". Apparently no drinking means no hard alcohol? Beer isn't even considered alcoholic--you can drink beer on the metro but you can't eat ice cream! Go figure.

Anyway, back to veganism. I became very unhealthy as a vegan in Ukraine and had to ride the metro for 45 minutes to go to the Chinese market to get tofu. Soy milk is hard to come by but can be found in the strangest places--I think some people must make it themselves because they sell it in old pop bottles. I actually started eating dairy and fish again to deal with my health and social issues. The fish is heavenly, by the way. There are "vegetarians" in Ukraine but from my experience, they do tend to include fish and dairy in their diets. I didn't meet another vegan.

For anyone planning to go to (or already in!) Kyiv, I must tell you a secret. I found the world's best borscht and pampusky in a restaurant not far from Zoloti Vororta down on Yaroslav Val right before the Canadian Embassy. I don't remember the name exactly but there is a little cafe on one side and a restaurant on the other and some suit of armour (I think) at the door. Apparently they have had the same recipe for 20 years. It is so so worth going there. (Drool, drool, slurp)

Can you tell we are all feeling a little nostaligic for Eastern Europe?