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Who has been to Eastern Europe with small children? - Page 3

post #41 of 68
That's interesting

This is something I've been thinking more about lately--I've read that children can distinguish their native language from other languages as early as 9 or 10 months, so I feel like I need to get a plan in place. I recently read "Raising Bilingual Children: A Parent's Guide" and it actually kind of scared me. I didn't realize how difficult it was, I guess. I just figured she'd learn and speak Russian at home, learn and speak English at school, then we could start adding in Ukrainian and that would be that. I've come to realize that this "plan" is very naive The book talks a lot about some of the challenges it sounds like you've been facing--and evidently it only becomes more difficult as they enter adolescence. So I've been trying to learn more strategies. Right now we've been doing the "home language-outside language" approach, but have been considering "one parent-one language." Aaarrgghh. I don't know. But it's so helpful to hear about others' experiences. Thanks for sharing
post #42 of 68
I have a problem with OPOL. Every bi- or multilingual I've met has told me that his or her parents spoke whatever language they felt like in the moment. I don't think anyone should strive to have a perfect bilingual. What about all the people in the USSR who speak so many languages? I am sure they didn't have strict OPOL parents.

We should really go start a Ukraine tribe in the Europe area. There's another Ukrainian woman here on MDC. I can't remember her usernmame right now. Something with max in it, I think. I'll go through my PMs and send her a message if we start this other thread.
post #43 of 68
I think there was a Russian tribe at one point, but it fizzled out. There was also the "Cultural Clashes" thread in Parents as Partners. As I said, I would REALLY like MDC to have a multicultural/international families section where all of these issues could be discussed. I hope they decide to add one. In the meantime, though, I would be happy to join a "tribe."

udonandbroth, I am so sorry that we have hijacked your thread
post #44 of 68
Quote:
What about all the people in the USSR who speak so many languages? I am sure they didn't have strict OPOL parents.
Right--I think for most people (in the non-Russia republics), it tended to be "home language-outside language", but with varying degrees of success. In Ukraine, for example, most people are bilingual at least to some degree, but often are not really comfortable speaking both. My dh, for example, has Ukrainian speaking parents who always spoke Ukrainian at home, but then he went to a Russian language school and now--well, he understands Ukrainian, but doesn't speak it very well. Same with his brother. Now his brother has a 5 year old and he and his wife speak Russian to each other, but they decided to speak to her only in Ukrainian (so that she would be prepared for school). As a result, she doesn't really speak either (she speaks a kind of surzhyk I guess)--although she understands both.

But I guess it all really depends on how you define bilingual and what your ultimate goal is--whether or not understanding both languages is enough, or whether you're hoping for near native proficiency in both languages. The latter is probably very hard to achieve unless you make a point of travelling frequently to both countries.
post #45 of 68
Sorry I fell behind in the discussion.

We are doing OPOL simply because my Russian/Ukrainian aren't strong enough. My husband speaks Russian to ds 95% of the time (I still bug him about that 5%) but English to me 100% (minus a spattering of nouns). I was hoping he would speak Ukranian from the beginning but Russian is his first language and his family's language. So far ds isn't really vocal--he has something like 20-40 words but they are almost all English. What is interesting though is it seems he understand Russian well. If I am asking him to do something and he isn't responding, I ask dh to tell him in Russian and he more often than not responds! I think this could be because Russian sounds so SCARY! When I first went to Kyiv and would hear dh on the phone, I was SURE he was arguing with people--and he assured me he wasn't! Its just so angry and aggressive sounding!

I am just really, really hoping ds picks up the Russian so he can talk to his family in Ukraine. In my city there are tons of Ukrainians and we are thinking of sending ds a to a Ukrainian sadochuk when he's 3 (a few hours a week). I don't know if this is good or not--introducing yet a 3rd language that he will only hear occassionally.

Any ideas?
post #46 of 68
Thread Starter 
That's ok. All of these issues are interesting to me, anyhow, as I am also dealing with them. I agree that MDC needs a forum for us to go to. I have no idea how I am going to teach my three Russian. My husband won't speak Russian around them and as I said, I know about 50 or 60 words and phrases. I think I am going to go to Borders today and check out the foreign language section. I also have the 'Cheburaschka', 'Three from Sourcream Village' and other Russian cartoon tapes. I put those for the kids often and also have many Russian children's music (Nikitins, etc) but I really don't know how much good that is doing....? Hopefully they are subconsciously absorbing it

I am starting to feel the pressure, though. MIL isgoing to be soooo disapointed if the kids can't talk to her and she can't talk to them.

One question that you guys may or may not be able to answer: dh's passport is expired (actually it is still from the USSR!!) Have you guys had any experiences with the Russian Consulate/Embassy here in the US? I think we need to get him a Russian pass. before we go (he has a US green card, though). Is the Rus. consulate difficult to deal with? Do you guys have any tips? (just wondering bc. Misha keeps putting it off and putting it off as he says they are a nightmare to deal with... is this true? he is a notorious exaggerator )
post #47 of 68
Quote:
One question that you guys may or may not be able to answer: dh's passport is expired (actually it is still from the USSR!!) Have you guys had any experiences with the Russian Consulate/Embassy here in the US? I think we need to get him a Russian pass. before we go (he has a US green card, though). Is the Rus. consulate difficult to deal with? Do you guys have any tips? (just wondering bc. Misha keeps putting it off and putting it off as he says they are a nightmare to deal with... is this true? he is a notorious exaggerato
No personal experience yet (although dh's passport expires in about 2 years), but I moderate a forum on international marriages, etc and have seen people post about this several times. Like just about anything, it seems to depend on luck. Some people have had NO problems at all getting a new passport, for others it took repeated phone calls, not finding the right person to deal with, etc. At any rate, I would start the process right away just in case. I don't think you'll encounter any major problems.

Quote:
I don't know if this is good or not--introducing yet a 3rd language that he will only hear occassionally.
I think it's fine to do, but with kind of low expectations for it--there's a good chance he'll at least acquire a passive knowledge which will make it easier for him to learn later on if he chooses to. According to the book I referenced above, though, these "Saturday schools" aren't really very effective, especially if that's the only opportunity that the child has to use the target language simply because children have a tendency to be pragmatic about language--meaning, if they realize that they don't really NEED the language, then they don't really learn it. However, if you can hook up with other Ukrainian speaking parents/children you might do well to have Ukrainian-speaking playdates especially if the other children are stronger in Ukrainian than in English. That will help show your ds that he "needs" Ukrainian to play with these new friends and that will motivate him to learn more than the school's instruction will.
post #48 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by udonandbroth
T I also have the 'Cheburaschka', 'Three from Sourcream Village' and other Russian cartoon tapes.
HAHA! Ds LOVES Cheborashka! There is also a fantastic series of Russian animations coming out right now called "Gora Samotsvetov". They are about 10 minutes long each and feature fairy tales from all over the former USSR. You can probably download them pretty easily.

I have a question for all of you--how did you meet your Russian/Ukrainian husbands? Its so uncommon for the wife to be a westerner. I'll tell you my story:

I had a very good Ukrainian friend I met treeplanting. She eventually married a Canadian and became an immigrant but returned to Kyiv after her divorce. I went to visit her on a whim in 2002 and amongst all the vodka and sweet wine, ended up falling in love with her roomate (in a completely romantic way). As soon as I got back to Canada 3 weeks later, I bought tickets to return to Ukraine after I was finished my summer job with the Canadian Wildlife Service. Sooooo....after knowing my future husband only a few weeks (plus summer correspondance), we moved in together and it was PARADISE! Talk about jumping into a "sink or swim" relationship! We were married in Kyiv in March 2003--in Ukrainian! It was so beautiful. Shortly thereafter I became pregnant with ds and we decided to emmigrate to Canada so I could birth here. And so it began!

Just thought I'd share.
post #49 of 68
Quote:
I have a question for all of you--how did you meet your Russian/Ukrainian husbands? Its so uncommon for the wife to be a westerner.
We met when I was living in Kiev.

But I actually disagree with you--I don't think it's really that uncommon at all. I know A LOT of Western (mainly American) women (both on line and in real life) who are married to Russian/Ukrainian men. There's even a forum I participate in for American women in relationships with FSU men--the forum is fairly small because it's private (i.e. you can't find it through a search engine)--I think there are only about 15 or so members right now, but we did have discussion there about how many people each of us knows in this situation--everyone knew of several other such couples. So we are certainly around, probably just not as visible as Western man/FSU woman couples. And actually, it was the American wife of a Russian man who first told me about MDC
post #50 of 68
Actually, come to think of it, the woman who runs the forum I mentioned is starting a yahoo group. If you're interested (and hopeully she won't mind my posting this info):


Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aw_fsum


I don't know how "up and running" it is yet, though. And I'm sure "American" refers more to "North American"
post #51 of 68
These are also entertaining reads:

Good Russian Grooms
You wanna marry one of the local men? Why?
Wednesday, November 11, 1998, The Moscow Times
About Face: American Women Pursue Russians
By Lynn Visson

http://www.bellybuttonwindow.com/archives/000150.html

The Grass Is Greener
Reflections on Men and Crabgrass
by Michele A. Berdy

http://www.amherst.edu/magazine/issu...s_greener.html

I don't necessarily agree with everything in these articles, but I found them interesting.

And, hey, even the PRESIDENT of Ukraine is married to an American woman! : As is Sheva, I believe.
post #52 of 68
Well you proved me wrong, EVC!

I guess I was just sickened with the number of "mail order marriages" I encountered in Kyiv. I know some arranged marriages ARE love-filled but the couples I saw getting documents translated and waiting at the embassy certainly didn't seem like this.

I'll check out your links.

Thanks again!
post #53 of 68
Quote:
I guess I was just sickened with the number of "mail order marriages" I encountered in Kyiv.
Yeah, there are certainly more of those, but the other thing is, I think, that those couples just, well, stand out more, especially in the cases where it is a MUCH older man with a very young woman. Yes, even some of those couples are legit, but it's still something you have more of a tendency to notice....Honestly, how can you not?

Well, and a lot are green card marriages--obviously not all--but quite a few. My dh, for example, participates in a few forums for FSU immigrants in the US and he sees it there all time (including the ones who make false DV allegations to divorce their American husbands and get their green cards and then laugh about it to strangers on the internet : ). And some are for money--like those who post on the same forums about how physically disgusted they are by their husbands, but he just her a new corvette, etc.

Although, having said all that, I know some very happy couples who are really, totally, and sincerely in love with each other. So who's to say?
post #54 of 68
I have a confession. I have a major, major crush on the man who is the voice of krokodil Genya, Vasily Livanov. He plays Sherlock Holmes in the Russian version. I am so in love with him.
post #55 of 68
Quote:
I have a confession. I have a major, major crush on the man who is the voice of krokodil Genya, Vasily Livanov. He plays Sherlock Holmes in the Russian version. I am so in love with him
Don't worry, VelmaLou. You're among friends here. We won't judge you I've long had a crush on Yuri Shevchuk
post #56 of 68
And I am absolutely ENAMOURED with Sergei Bodrov Jr., may he rest in peace
post #57 of 68
Quote:
And I am absolutely ENAMOURED with Sergei Bodrov Jr., may he rest in peace
Oh, I really liked him too
post #58 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVC
around, probably just not as visible as Western man/FSU woman couples. And actually, it was the American wife of a Russian man who first told me about MDC
Me?!

Late to this thread due to nak making me internet lazy-- watching the world cup takes less effort, though today it was depressing! and they don't show any Ukraine games on ABC orESPN either

I have traveled twice to Russia w/ ds who is turning three shortly and this summer we will take ds and 2 month old dd.

To be fair, dh did the heavy lifting the first time when ds was 10 months flying alone w/him b/c of my job (dh is a SAHD/WAHD) at that time, but each time I was there for 2 wks, ds & dh for 4-- sucks but the grief from making dh's trip shorter would have been worse and hiring a babysitter for 2 wks instead of leaving him w/dh and the inlaws b/c I have to come back for work would have b een equally bad and to them insulting. Not very AP but c'est la vie in this case.

Anyway, we did not take car seat before-- ds was in a car rarely so I decided to pray for it and hope odds were w/ us for our relatively brief trips. Ds was already sitting though -- I feel less comfortable doing that w/ a small babyho can't wear even a seatbelt-- so I'm pushing to take hers esp since we are flyingto Helsinki this time and likely driving to Petersburg (where the in laws live, in a house in the 'burbs) with a friend and will be in the car on highways (yikes!) for four hours at least We will also take DS' b/c DH wants to leave it there for future use. As I understand it, they passed a new law in Russia requiring car seats-- I think it went into effect this year. I don't know the details but there was discussion on it on materinstvo.ru (a forum I've participated in) and it looks like a lot more people are buying them now (heck, if they can shell out 500 bucks for a stroller, which many do, they can get a bleeping car seat). Slings are also more in vogue than in the past among the young anyhow. A lot of the girls in my due date club on materinstvo are well-versed in Sears, slings, and other AP concepts and are battling their elders over it (or just ignoring them) so in the larger cities you might get less meddling than in the small towns. One woman in a smaller city was recently complaining how her elders give her grief about nursing on demand -- apparently they think you MUST feed only every three hours and MUST use a pacifier the rest of the time and breastfeeding past 3 months is not done. Fortunately younger women have different ideas, though of course there is a spectrum just like here. Sears is definitely popular among the middle class, internet connected types though, just what I've observed. His Baby Book was translated and is available free in Russian on the 'net, so you can stick that to someone if they give you too much grief. My MIL knows to back down now-- well, at least when she pushes me to the point where I start yelling at her, LOL. Although to be fair she was always cool witht he bf'ing -- it's other nutty things (like the serious way overwrapping, wanting to give DS unpasteurized goat's milk when he was only 11 months old, yikes!) that we have words about. She didn't like me HBAC'ing either but learned to keep her mouth shut. I have been a little harsh on her, but since she doesn't take a hint (it seems to be a trait in that family) you have to lay it out in black and white eventually for whatever IT is to stop. I speak Russian and she and I have spent A LOT of time together (she comes here every year also for extended stays) so we're real family now, including the ugly bits, if you know what I mean.

We're going on July 3-- if anyone's going to be in the Petersburg area during the month of July, look me up, please b/c I will be close to dying of boredome since going to a lot of interesting places with a small baby will be difficult and I won't leave her for long since I am NOT going to make pumping by hand a regular activity (and each time I try to take her anywhere will be fraught with the, "what are you taking her for? Why torture her like that-- blah blah blah"-- because she so loves staring at your walls and bloody cucumbers all the time, gargh). At least we can go to the park with some frequency, although going to town much will be out. If you have small children rather than babies though there's plenty to do most places-- children's theatre which I want them to take DS too this year (since I probably can't go with DD), the circus, some museums, fortresses, parks, etc. Petersburg is particularly rich in this but there are other places too. I'm definitely going to stock up on kids books and Russian cartoons while there. There's also a site where you can download Russian cartoons to your computer for dvd burning-- something I mean to do often and never do-- just like I still owe EVC Master and Marguerita (sorry, I will get to it eventually-- I've only watched one series myself, DH keeps asking me when we'll watch it).

If you can cook yourself in a house or apt food isn't a big issue since you can just buy what you like, I think. Veganism is definitely more difficult since dairy is huge. I've never had food poisoning and I'm not very careful, but I also don't like mayonnaise so that cuts out a lot of salads and potential food posinings I think since meat tends to be cooked well done over there in my experience and isn't much of a problem. The only salads I eat pretty much are the cucumber tomato one with oil or smyetana and vinagret. I also haven't had a lot of random stranger input into my childrearing (just plenty from non strangers, LOL) but then again we don't go out with DS on the town much (mostly just to local parks, etc where there are too many kids for anyone to pay attention to ours), I expect to get some comments with the sling this summer which I will either ignore or deflect if it's too persistent. Around the bigger towns I think they tend to mind their own business more, and more now than they used to-- younger people are more likely to tell them where to go than they used to, which has it's good and bad points I guess.

We took the umbrella stroller in the past and found it easy to handle-- this time I plan on buying one of those light cheap strollers that still recline (I think you can get them at Wal Mart) for DD (DS can go without) to deflect any possibility of MIL scaring up from some ancient neighbor some ancient rusty buggy that weighs a ton and you couldn't possibly do anything with except walk the neighborhood at a snail's pace and chat with other babushkas and which I know DD would hate anyway (she only likes the stoller when she's asleep) and will sling the rest of the time. In laws got used to me slinging DS and FIL joined in the fun too so I don't expect trouble from them on that front.

For the plane I hope (since it is overnight) DD mostly sleeps and DS we can take turns entertaining I guess. Last year I flew over with them and it wasn't too bad. We let DS walk the aisles a bit. We are going non stop to Helsinki from NYC so it should be pretty easy.

I'm taking cloth diapers b/c in my experience disposables are more expensive there than here and where in laws live you have to make a haul to town to get them and the nearest places sell small packages, so it'll be easier and cheaper to do what I do here-- use cloth and wash (they have a machine) at home and use disposable when we go out. If you are constantly moving around though cloth is not such a good idea probably.

Sorry for the rambling-- I think I touched the main topics covered. Can't say much about trains, have only done Petersburg-Moscow and w/o kids. DS would love it at his age I think though.

We go every year, which is how we're hoping the kids keep their language. We're doing in-home Russian, English outside the home language, approach-- DH and I mostly communicate in Russian anyway, we have Russian channels which is what we watch most of the time, and most of our socialing is done in Russian and we're lucky enough to have a circle of 4-5 couples with little boys' DS's age who are all Russian, plus there is Saturday school for some extra reinforcement, so hopefully they will speak at an advanced level, though I don't expect perfect fluency or accents. DS currently only really speaks Russian, which will change once he starts preschool in the fall. I really can't teach him the English stuff on top of the Russian stuff- I don't have time-- and DH isn't as big into doing the school type stuff with him at home. I know once they start regular school though I will have more English with them helping with homework etc. But with our yearly trip plus MIL's frequent visits, plus visits from SIL and her teenage son, none of whom speak English, I figure we might come out decently on the language front. Hopefully!
post #59 of 68
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input
post #60 of 68
Quote:
Me?!
Yup
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