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Questions for Christians re: Judaism and how Christianity came to be (spin off)

post #1 of 305
Thread Starter 
I'd like to know exactly how you came to understand, from the scriptures, that Jesus was in fact the Messaiah. Reading the scriptures in Hebrew, and even reading Jewish translations, there are many, things which prove, flat out, that he couldn't possibly have been Moshiach. Isn't Christianity ostensibly based on the fact that Jesus was the Jewish Moshiach? If so, wouldn't he then have had to meet the requirements laid out for Moshiach in the Tanach in order to be Christ? I'm asking an honest question here, one to which I do not understand an answer. Is it something within the scriptures that leads you to believe this, or something without?

***Note: I'm okay with debate, of course, and questions and answers, but I did not start this thread with the intent of attacking anyone's beliefs, only understanding. Please, no attacks! I really want to learn something here.
post #2 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
I'd like to know exactly how you came to understand, from the scriptures, that Jesus was in fact the Messiah. Reading the scriptures in Hebrew, and even reading Jewish translations, there are many, things which prove, flat out, that he couldn't possibly have been Moshiach.
I have not read the scriptures in Hebrew. I therefore can not judge them directly. I am interested in these "many, things which prove, flat out, that he couldn't possibly have been Moshiach."
Overall I have faith in the English translations I have read, but realize there are always things that change from language to language. I wonder which of these are things that are A) translated differently B) Simply understood differently or 3) Agree over meaning of prophecy, disagree over Jesus fulfilling them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
Isn't Christianity ostensibly based on the fact that Jesus was the Jewish Moshiach?
Yes. Although it certainly seems that Jesus did not fit the idea of the Messiah the Jews were looking for at that time. However, I believe he fit the qualifications set forth by the prophets and that due to their political situation that the Jews had expectations for the Messiah that were not accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
If so, wouldn't he then have had to meet the requirements laid out for Moshiach in the Tanach in order to be Christ?
Yes. I believe that He did.


I found one long list of OT prophecies/NT fulfillments on line.
http://www.vojo.com/rev/messianic_prophecies.htm
I have not had time to look at every single example listed here. However, when I was first doing my research to decide if I thought Jesus was real and the Saviour, I read similar lists. While other books were more readable, the one with the best setup for references was Josh McDowell's The Evidence the Demands a Verdict. I used the new revised version http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/078...Fencoding=UTF8
I can't seem to find the book at the moment (it may be in the basement.)
If I do, I may be able to type some of it up. But honestly, the number of fulfilled prophecies is so long, it would be a bit daunting to type it all in.


I have a feeling that a Messianic Jew might be better able to discuss this with you in terms you could relate to than I am able to.
There is a section at christianforums.com specifically for Messianic Judaism with a number of wonderful, knowledgeable people who know a lot more than I do. There are also some places where they have debates with "regular" Jews (those who don't believe in Yeshua as Messiah) which you may find interesting.
post #3 of 305
This link lays out the criteria for someone being the Messiah and might help you to understand where the OP's question is coming from.
post #4 of 305
[QUOTE=Rico'sAlice]
Quote:
I have not read the scriptures in Hebrew. I therefore can not judge them directly. I am interested in these "many, things which prove, flat out, that he couldn't possibly have been Moshiach."
Overall I have faith in the English translations I have read, but realize there are always things that change from language to language. I wonder which of these are things that are A) translated differently B) Simply understood differently or 3) Agree over meaning of prophecy, disagree over Jesus fulfilling them?
I or someone else can hopefully answer this one in a bit. I can't right now because my boys need me.


Quote:
Yes. Although it certainly seems that Jesus did not fit the idea of the Messiah the Jews were looking for at that time. However, I believe he fit the qualifications set forth by the prophets and that due to their political situation that the Jews had expectations for the Messiah that were not accurate.
It was actually the books of prophets that I think of which prophecies were not fulfilled. Perhaps you have something more exact in mind since the prophets have numerous books. I need to look at the link you provided earlier since as I dais my kids need me.

Quote:
I found one long list of OT prophecies/NT fulfillments on line.
We have absolutely NO belief in the new testament. The Jewish messiah needs to fulfill each and every prophecy in the Tanach. The NT is in no way connected to Jewish philosophy or beliefs so any quote from the NT would not be useful in this discussion (based on how I understand the OP's intentions).
post #5 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraFR
We have absolutely NO belief in the new testament. The Jewish messiah needs to fulfill each and every prophecy in the Tanach. The NT is in no way connected to Jewish philosophy or beliefs so any quote from the NT would not be useful in this discussion (based on how I understand the OP's intentions).
Look at the link. It goes like this:

OT Prophecy regarding the Messiah/ NT description of how JC fulfilled that prophecy


If you won't look at the NT as it pertains to JC's life I don't know how this conversation can take place at all.
post #6 of 305
I think she misunderstood, k'mama and thought the pp was saying there were prophecies in the NT.

I looked at the list, and I have to say that many of those 'prophecies', such as things from Proverbs and Psalms are not considered prophecies from a Jewish perspective and usually are talking about things that happend in the past, not the future. And then there are the things that are just mistranslations, like the part about his side being pierced, which doesn't mean that at all in the Hebrew original.

I posted a link to a list of what the Messiah must fulfill and is the origin of the Jewish rejection of anyone who didn't fulfill those requirements (there have been other claims to the title, btw). I am curious how theology works its way around that claim. Is it b/c that anything that wasn't done on the first go-round (such as all the nations of the world reconizing one true G-d) are relegated to the 'second coming'? Am curious also about a source for a second coming as well.
post #7 of 305
Yeah, I think "Wait for the second coming" may be the answer to a lot of the questions. That site youlinked is interesting. Thank you.
post #8 of 305
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven
I posted a link to a list of what the Messiah must fulfill and is the origin of the Jewish rejection of anyone who didn't fulfill those requirements (there have been other claims to the title, btw). I am curious how theology works its way around that claim. Is it b/c that anything that wasn't done on the first go-round (such as all the nations of the world reconizing one true G-d) are relegated to the 'second coming'? Am curious also about a source for a second coming as well.
: Thank you, Chava, for posting it more precisely. This is exactly the question that I was trying to ask, but failing so early in the morning.
post #9 of 305
Well, look at those lists. There is clearly no agreement on what the messiah is. No wonder we don't agree on who he was/wasn't.
post #10 of 305
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kama'aina mama
Well, look at those lists. There is clearly no agreement on what the messiah is. No wonder we don't agree on who he was/wasn't.
:

Okay; if what I'm reading is correct, then the primary rationale would be mistranlated scripture, followed by verses out of context (the favorite of my FIL, but I digress). So i have a follow-up question: if it is pointed out that a text you (general) read and put a great deal of stock in is, in fact, a misrepresentation, and that you have access to a far more accurate representation, wouldn't you want to explore that further? i guess what I'm asking is, why don't more Christians question Jewish translations? If they do, how could they possibly come to the same conclusions that they held before?
post #11 of 305
In all honesty, I am interested in what you are talking about. Perhaps you could lead me/us in the right direction. Perhaps you could take some of those quotes from Bible scriptures and insert the accurate translation, if you would be willing to do that, that is. I am interested. I came to know God not as a jew. I was searching for God and He drew me to Him thru christianity. However I know that my understanding is limited and that in some ways christianity HAS, since the first century christian church, placed God into a box. I do believe that alot of christianity or what some (possibly fundamentalists like your fil) christians believe is hearsay. They take what they hear from their pastors, vicars, preachers, elders and dont search things out for themselves. Im reminded of when the Israelites are waiting for Moses to come down from Mt Sinai and the mount of God trembled and flashed with lightening and the Israelites were afraid and told God not to bring them any further. (obviously paraphrasing here and forgive me, but the old testament is all I know, not the torah as you know it and Im not sure where it would be found in the Torah, its found in Exodus of the old testament). That is how I see some christians. They meet with God but actually find Him too terrifying to let Him take them any closer to Him. Im not like that. I know God is terrifying. I know He is incredible beyond words. I know that he is frightening at times but I know that I am safe with him, that He is good. That He is good to me. So full of comfort and love for me. However, I dont know it all! I know Him by faith. I trust Him by faith too. I have seen Him at work in my life and in the lives of the members of my family, particularly my dh. To me He is a great restorer (that and my marriage is another story). Something in me was healed when I 'met' Him, and accepted His free gift to be adopted into His family. God knows my heart and knows that I want to follow Him where He will lead me. That journey involves showing His love to others as well as growing closer and more mature in the things that make HIM who He is. Things like Love, compassion, mercy on others even when they arent particularly likeable, all for the sake of showing them His love for them.

I dont know if Ive gone off topic or not but I am a christian and I know Jesus, not as the jewish massiah but as mine. My saviour. To me He happened to be a jewish man who made some big claims about himself. And let others testify to these claims without rebuking them. After Jesus died and rose from the dead, it is documented in secular records that many of his original deciples were martyred or died in prison for their faith. I cant think of any reason why they all would have not given in and 'admit' they made it all up to just save their lives. Their only crime was to speak about Jesus being their massiah, or The Massiah. Why do you think they might have given their lives for a myth? And Christians are still being martyred for their faith in countries where they are the minority. For a myth? I wouldnt give my life for a myth. I dont know what else to say, and I expect to be flamed. I was wondering if this was something you might have prayed about? When people have questions about God that I cant answer I always say 'Why dont you ask God yourself?' Im certain he would give you the answers you are looking for.
post #12 of 305
Thread Starter 
Genifer-- That's a very interesting post, and I'd like to address it but part of me is hesitant. I'm not sure how I can ask/answer the questions without sounding like I'm trying to convert people, and that's really the farthest thing from my mind; in fact, it's antithetical to Judaism itself.

The verses & Hebrew & translations-- I would totally be willing to do that! Right now, though, I'm on my way out the door; I was actually just checking the status of a download. Someone else here may or may not be able to do it while I'm out, but if nobody does it before I have a chance to, I will.

In all fairness, I feel like I should say that my FIL has indeed studied these matters on his own. The trouble is that he's exclusively studied Christian scriptures, and mostly translations. He did learn some Greek back in the day, but it didn't stick and he had a hard time with it.

A question-- do you not think of Jesus, then, as the Jewish Messaiah? Or are you simply saying that it's not relevant to your faith, that as you percieve it Christianity and Judaism are separate entities?

As to martyrdom-- I can definately think of people who die for myths, even in the current era. Why anyone chooses such a thing... well, there are all sorts of reasons that I can think of. I'll say more when I'm back on.
post #13 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by genifer
I am a christian and I know Jesus, not as the jewish massiah but as mine. My saviour.
I have complete respect for that.

What bothers me is when people try to twist Judaism into a kind of "Christianity lite" by saying that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and that all Jews should follow his teachings.
post #14 of 305
Quote:
A question-- do you not think of Jesus, then, as the Jewish Messaiah? Or are you simply saying that it's not relevant to your faith, that as you percieve it Christianity and Judaism are separate entities?
I cannot answer that. I think it is a personal thing. It isnt reallly relevant to my faith unless I felt God was 'calling' me to convert Jews, but I dont. However, I dont see christianity and Judaism as seperate entities. I know Jesus was a jewish man who claimed to be the King of the Jews and that is part of the reason he was crucified. In the way he spoke the Jewish leaders of His day took his words to be blasphemy, that he was claiming to be equal with God. That is why they said he NEEDED to be crucified. See I havent researched all the relevant scriptures about how He fulfilled all the prophecies to be the Jewish Massiah, I cant answer that for you as a jewish woman. If a person, Jewish or not isnt interested in what Jesus said than He isnt for them, is He? To me He is the Massiah. To you as a jewish woman, who is He? I cant answer that. Some of the verses on that link above are a bit vague, I admit but some of them I can see clearly how they relate to Jesus.

Quote:
I'd like to address it but part of me is hesitant. I'm not sure how I can ask/answer the questions without sounding like I'm trying to convert people,
Im sincerely interested. We can think of it as a sort of study. Its called healthy, open, friendly debate. Its cool tho, because in my 'walk' (thats christian talk) with God, He will teach me one thing, lay a foundation only to completely blow me away a few years later with something new and unexpected. Ive come to expect the unexpected with God.
post #15 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by genifer
If a person, Jewish or not isnt interested in what Jesus said than He isnt for them, is He? To me He is the Massiah. To you as a jewish woman, who is He? I cant answer that. Some of the verses on that link above are a bit vague, I admit but some of them I can see clearly how they relate to Jesus.
I don't think we are asking Christians to tell Jewish women how to view J. We are simply asking you how is it that the Christian religion believes that J. is a fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies in the Tanach, when it is obvious to us that most of the "proofs" of this are mistranslations, taken out of context, clearly referring to other events, etc. etc. A debate (friendly, of course) on these points was welcomed. I planned to reply last night, but dh made me come to bed.

I will just take a few glaring mistranslations now, if I don't get interrupted.

Isaiah 7:14 - It does not say "virgin" here, it says "young woman".

Psalms 22:16 - It says nothing about someone being "pierced" in hands and feet. It says "like a LION" they are at my hands and feet!


There are many many more, but I have to go.
post #16 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
I'd like to know exactly how you came to understand, from the scriptures, that Jesus was in fact the Messaiah. Reading the scriptures in Hebrew, and even reading Jewish translations, there are many, things which prove, flat out, that he couldn't possibly have been Moshiach. Isn't Christianity ostensibly based on the fact that Jesus was the Jewish Moshiach? If so, wouldn't he then have had to meet the requirements laid out for Moshiach in the Tanach in order to be Christ? I'm asking an honest question here, one to which I do not understand an answer. Is it something within the scriptures that leads you to believe this, or something without?

***Note: I'm okay with debate, of course, and questions and answers, but I did not start this thread with the intent of attacking anyone's beliefs, only understanding. Please, no attacks! I really want to learn something here.
Well, first of all, I became a born-again Christian due to the grace of God, not due to an understanding of prophesy.
I was a poorly educated Reform Jew who knew little and cared less about what the Bible said.
My becoming a Christian was a matter of life - the Life of God Himself, as He revealed Himself to me and He now lives in me.
I have, since becoming a Christian, read the entire Bible and seen the prophetic verses.
The first verse that prophesies Christ is
Quote:
GEN 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The seed refered to in this verse is Christ.
I have read the list of prophesies in the Jews for Judaism site in the past - someone here pointed them out to me. I do believe that the ones that are not fulfilled will be fulfilled in the second coming which is referred to in Matt. 24:30 and Zech. 12:10-14.
Being a Christian, is a matter of life, not of education. It is organic. It is Christ in me the hope of glory. It is no longer I, but Christ who lives in me. It is loving God because He first loved me. It is a life of living God, loving God, growing in His life and giving my whole self to Him.
post #17 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by kama'aina mama
Look at the link. It goes like this:

OT Prophecy regarding the Messiah/ NT description of how JC fulfilled that prophecy


If you won't look at the NT as it pertains to JC's life I don't know how this conversation can take place at all.
I apologize. I completely misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the PROOF ITSELF was written in the NT, not the OT. THAT didn't make sense to me. Thank you for clarifying. I can't explain what I mean very well but I hope it's clear.

BTW-I don't use the words in caps to scream.
post #18 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinahYeteirah
I will just take a few glaring mistranslations now, if I don't get interrupted.

Isaiah 7:14 - It does not say "virgin" here, it says "young woman".
I don't know how to word this correctly without being offensive, so I hope you can get what I mean.
I do not agree that this is a mistranslation. IMO it is debatable if עלמה ever means virgin, if it always means virgin, if it means virgin in this specific instance. In your opinion, does בתולה always mean virgin? Is it the only word for virgin?
I do not have the individual expertise to definitively state what this word means in this verse. Scholarly opinions are divided and I can't say one is overwhelmingly convincing to me as compared to another. However clearly Matthew (gospel writer) translated this word as "virgin." Basically, without convincing evidence otherwise, I trust his judgment.

I understand that is not evidence to "prove" to you that it is so. That "because Matthew says so" doesn't mean much to you.
But hopefully you can understand why it works for me.
post #19 of 305
The word 'alma' is used to describe Dina after she was raped. It's hard to argue that it means she was a virgin.

Genifer - the original link I posted has a whole section where you can see an explanation of the verses in context if you look at the side bar to 'proof texts'.

I am hard pressed to understand how Genesis 3:15 is taken to refer to the Messiah, esp. when it is refering to Eve and the snake. But honestly, I don't have time to take it verse by verse when it is all at that first link I posted.
post #20 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinahYeteirah
II will just take a few glaring mistranslations now, if I don't get interrupted.

Psalms 22:16 - It says nothing about someone being "pierced" in hands and feet. It says "like a LION" they are at my hands and feet!
OK, I know that I'm the one who gave you that other list from which you took this, but personally if I were making my own list, I wouldn't have chosen this as a great example on its own. It also seems that in this region of the list, it is a bit unclear how the prophecies and NT happenings are linked up.
The NT verse they have attached doesn't seem precisely appropriate; rather it is an echo of Psalm 22:1. But, getting to the point.

Ok, so the two translations (well there are many variations, but you know what I mean) we have are:

Quote:
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [a] my hands and my feet. (NIV)

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet. (JPS)
According to my NIV text notes "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac" use this pierced translation. And that "most Hebrew manuscripts / like the lion,"

This web site has a chart with a variety of older renderings. (Overall this author IS making the argument for “like a lion”)
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pierce.html


TextActual ReadingTranslation
MT
Like a lion my hands and my feet.
DSS
They dig (?) my hands and my feet.
T
Biting like a lion my hands and my feet.
LXXωρυξαν χειρας μου και ποδας μου They dug my hands and my feet.
α' (1)ησχυναν χειρας μου και ποδας μου They disfigured my hands and my feet.
σ' ως λεων χειρας μου και ποδας μου Like a lion my hands and my feet.
OLfoderunt manus meas et pedes meosThey dug / pricked my hands and my feet.
VPfoderunt manus meas et pedes meosThey dug / pricked my hands and my feet.
LJvinxerunt manus meas et pedes meosThey bound / encircled my hands and my feet.
S
They hacked off / pierced my hands and my feet.
SL
They hacked off / pierced my hands and my feet.

They fettered my hands and my feet.

Like seeking to bind my hands and my feet.


I did agree with this author http://www.christian-thinktank.com/ps22cheat.html that “like a Lion” just doesn’t sound very nice to me. But some versions have the verb organized differently to make “like a lion” sound better.

Again, I don’t know for sure exactly what the best answer is. I do not have the education to try to say that X rendering is definitely correct, and that you should believe it. I am merely trying to explain how I can believe it.
Some feel that you can render it “like a lion” and still have a similar prophetical meaning. http://www.hadavar.org/Psalm_22_16.html
In either case, there are other references in the OT about being run through, pierced, etc. -ones that are more specifically alluded to in the NT than this one.


Quote:
The related verse Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed. (NIV)

But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. (JPS)

Quote:
Zehcariah 12:10

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [a] of grace and supplication. They will look on [b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. (JPS)

I also found it useful to look at this source- example here is Isaiah 53:5-is the word pierced or simply wounded? http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...7489-1962.html
And, so what if it is wounded?

To me they all work together to paint a general picture of piercing, injuring, wounding, damage to hands and feet, etc. And once combined they lead me to an image that is fulfilled by Jesus’ crucifixion.


As a side note, I know there are some schools of thought that the Christians have deliberately mistranslated these to supply additional proof for Jesus being the Christ. On the other hand, since certain pre-Christ translations use the same word, it is also possible to speculate that certain Jewish scholars deliberately rejected this translation for the same reason. I am not necessarily arguing either of these. I think it is very possible for translators to come to different conclusions through honest means, outside of their personal bias. Just wanted to mention these two ideas are out there.


NIV verses copied from here http://www.biblegateway.com/
JPS verses copied from here http://www.hareidi.org/bible/bible.htm
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