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Questions for Christians re: Judaism and how Christianity came to be (spin off) - Page 3

post #41 of 305
Jew created the idea/the concept of the Moshiach. (Or rather G-d did...but anyway...) So Jews get to make the rules about the qualifications.

You can't apply for a position as a surgeon, and say to the interviewers:

"I realize that I'm a paralegal, but look here it says that you have to have a neat appearance and be orderly and be on time and live in the city of Chicago and agree to train others and remove objects from people's bodies (I can take out splinters) .... I meet most of the requirements."
"But you aren't actually a surgeon madam; this position is for a surgeon."
"But I meet many of the requirements."

If you change the rules of baseball, you aren't playing baseball, you're playing a game with a ball and a stick.

Jews made the game. Jews make the rules.

You do get to pick your own uniform.

mv
post #42 of 305
This all does remind me of an old joke. Christian and Jew are arguing about the Messiah, neither able to convince the other of the veracity of his stance. Finally the Jew says, "I have a solution. We are waiting for the Messiah to come and you are waiting for the Messiah to return.

So, let's agree -

when the annointed one comes, we'll ask him:

'Were you here before?'

Until then we shall agree to disagree and go in peace."
post #43 of 305
Thread Starter 
Rico'sAlice-- Thank you; in all fairness, you have answered my original question from your own point of view. I disagree, but we already knew that. I'm interested in hearing other answers (to the other questions raised and from other people) as well, but you certainly have answered the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kama'aina mama
In fact I find these books that take the tack of "here, let me mathematically prove to you that Jesus is the Messiah and G#D, etc... " rather misguided. If it can be catagorically proven it ceases to be faith. It loses it's mysticism and much of it's sacredness.
This is something else that I wonder about. I'm a geeky person, and I *need* to be able to rationalize things to a great extent before I can accept them. If I can't rationalize, I can't understand; if I can't understand, I can't have faith. This is just the way that my mind works. It bothers me when I ask questions and get the response, "It's an article of faith, you just have to believe it," or "God's ways are beyond human understanding." It sounds like a cop-out to me. I need an explanation at the very least of how something *could* have happened, even if it boils down to, "We can think of how this might have happened, but we have no way to prove that it's possible right now." See what I mean?

I don't think that anything would be less mystical or sacred for me if I could wrap my head around it. Take Noach's Flood-- I saw a show on The History Channel several years ago which explained how a great flood, as described in the Torah could have actually happened. It was absolutely fascinating to me, and made it easier for me to accept the idea that this had actually happened. It also explained the "separation of the waters," in scientific terms. That made it all the more sacred to me, that it was a plausible, rational phenomenon at work.

Maybe I'm strange that way, but I like to see, if not proof, evidence of possibility.

All said, none of that is relevant to the Jesus as Messaiah discussion; we're not talking about articles of faith, we're talking about actual prophecies within the Torah and even the Old Testament that weren't fulfilled. The whole Second Coming idea doesn't wash for me at all; if God had originally planned it, then it too would be prophesied in the Torah. If God didn't plan a Second Coming but Jesus was the Messaiah, then doesn't that mean that God screwed up somewhere? Wouldn't that pose an entirely different theological problem?
post #44 of 305
Quote:
As to martyrdom-- I can definately think of people who die for myths, even in the current era.
I would die for my faith, which some people consider a myth. However, I would not die for a lie that I'd created. I don't know anyone who would.

If the Resurrection was a lie created by Jesus' disciples to further some purpose of their own, would not even one of them, or one of the many others who died as martyrs having known the disciples, have admitted to the lie? Either they lied, or they all had the same hallucination, or it's true.
post #45 of 305
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom
I would die for my faith, which some people consider a myth. However, I would not die for a lie that I'd created. I don't know anyone who would.
But would you die for a lie that someone else created, or sentence your children to death for that lie? Would you, for example, encourage your son to join the military in a time of war, when that war was based on lies? Of course, things would be different if you didn't know that it was, in fact, a lie that you were dying for, but what if you did know? There are people who have known that they were dying for lies as they did it. (**Note: I'm trying to tread carefully here, I don't want this thread to get closed down and I'm simply trying to make a point, not get this thread banished to some realm halfway between Religious Studies and News and Current Events. Let's just say I'm talking about a hypothetical war, okay? ).

Quote:
If the Resurrection was a lie created by Jesus' disciples to further some purpose of their own, would not even one of them, or one of the many others who died as martyrs having known the disciples, have admitted to the lie? Either they lied, or they all had the same hallucination, or it's true.
Again, people have been willing to die for untruths, simply to make a point. They often make television dramatizations of such things, because it strikes most of us as outrageous, but it does in fact happen. A woman was trying to get her family to believe that she was being treated poorly by her husband so that she could have their support in the event of a divorce (and the support of the courts) eventually killed herself because she couldn't get anyone to believe that he was cheating on her (when, in fact, he wasn't). She died for a lie (in this case, a lie of her own creation) to be a martyr to her children. Terrorists who blow themselves up because they see "kill the infidels" and skip the part in the Koran which expressly states that Christians and Jews, as well as Muslims, are saved because they know Allah/The One True God; they're dying for a lie, a lot of the time, and many of them are aware of it. My understanding is that the boys and girls who do this are generally very bright, and very depressed; martyrdom is a way out of a bad situation for them. If I use examples of dramatizations from television, I could go even further. It happens all the time on CSI and Law & Order.

The self-preservation instinct is firmly enmeshed in the human subconsciousness, so much so that most of us have a difficult time understanding people who subvert it, but the fact is that many people are capable of such an act, for any reason at all. Real or imagined, true or false, human beings are capable of what is, essentially, suicide.
post #46 of 305
Dying for a cause doesn't make the cause right. Plenty of soldiers died in the US Civil War. That doesn't make slavery right. But they died fighting to protect, among other things, slavery. They believed it was right, but that doesn't make it so. Someone martyring themselves is no evidence that Moshiach has actually been here.

No evidence at all.

mv
post #47 of 305
Killing oneself to make a point isn't the same as submitting to torture and a long, drawn out painful death.

My point was that they *believed what they were dying for was true*. That they didn't just make it up to further thier cause.
Likewise people who go to war don't generally volunteer if they think the war is based on lies. Whether it is or it isn't, those who support it and are willing to die for it believe that it is a worthy cause.

If the woman in the example above had been threatened with torture, would she have submitted to it in order to prove her husband was abusing her?
post #48 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom
Killing oneself to make a point isn't the same as submitting to torture and a long, drawn out painful death.

My point was that they *believed what they were dying for was true*. That they didn't just make it up to further thier cause.
Likewise people who go to war don't generally volunteer if they think the war is based on lies. Whether it is or it isn't, those who support it and are willing to die for it believe that it is a worthy cause.

If the woman in the example above had been threatened with torture, would she have submitted to it in order to prove her husband was abusing her?
I couldn't agree with you more. I would die for Christ, that's how much I believe in him. If somebody told me: "reject Christ or you and your family will be persecuted", guess what I would pick? If that's not a definition of true faith, then I don't know what is. I think if disciples made up the resurrection, the whole Christian movement would simply not exist today. Paul who was initially persecuting first Christians, became a Christ follower himself and thrown in prison for it and died for it. So as many other disciples. After Christ was crucified all disciples ran in four different directions. Peter betrayed him, all ran away. There was no reason for them to start this whole movement if Christ was not ressurected and didn't walk amongst them for days. Their lifes would be a lot easier after all.
post #49 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven
when the annointed one comes, we'll ask him:

'Were you here before?'
If he's smart, he'll say "I don't remember."
post #50 of 305
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post #51 of 305
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom
Killing oneself to make a point isn't the same as submitting to torture and a long, drawn out painful death.
It can be.

Quote:
My point was that they *believed what they were dying for was true*.
Intense belief doesn't make something true. That's the point that *I* was trying to make-- people die for lies all the time. Most of the time, it's because they believe that those lies are the truth; sometimes, people choose to die because of something which they know to be untrue.

Quote:
If the woman in the example above had been threatened with torture, would she have submitted to it in order to prove her husband was abusing her?
Potentially. I've heard of people torturing themselves in order to prove a point, as well as submitting to torture. Again, strong belief doesn't make something true.
post #52 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom
I would die for my faith, which some people consider a myth. However, I would not die for a lie that I'd created. I don't know anyone who would.

If the Resurrection was a lie created by Jesus' disciples to further some purpose of their own, would not even one of them, or one of the many others who died as martyrs having known the disciples, have admitted to the lie? Either they lied, or they all had the same hallucination, or it's true.
There are more options than those 3.

The resurrection of the flesh is an exoteric skin over an esoteric gnostic theology and many people are more comfortable with the outer shell than the inner knowing.

www.gnosis.org
post #53 of 305
Quote:
All said, none of that is relevant to the Jesus as Messaiah discussion; we're not talking about articles of faith, we're talking about actual prophecies within the Torah and even the Old Testament that weren't fulfilled. The whole Second Coming idea doesn't wash for me at all; if God had originally planned it, then it too would be prophesied in the Torah. If God didn't plan a Second Coming but Jesus was the Messaiah, then doesn't that mean that God screwed up somewhere? Wouldn't that pose an entirely different theological problem?

Im still interested in what scriptures Jews point to as far as the coming of the Messiah. I know what chirstians look to as the verses that point to the jewish messiah but Im interested to see whether they are different to the ones jews look to. I have been keenly following this thread out of sincere interest. This is something I have always wanted to ask, heres my chance.
post #54 of 305
A couple good links that answer your question:
Jewish Criteria for Messiah
Maimonides on the Messiah
post #55 of 305
So, Im curious. What if anything does the Torah mention of the gentiles? Is God only for Jews or those who convert to judaism?
post #56 of 305
All human beings were created in the image of G-d.
Here are some links that will explain things better than I can:
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=541&o=387
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=541&o=83771
http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm
post #57 of 305
Sorry, double post.
post #58 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by genifer
So, Im curious. What if anything does the Torah mention of the gentiles? Is God only for Jews or those who convert to judaism?
That is actually to my mind one of the great things about Judaism. Everyone can have a relationship with G-d and everyone can "get into heaven", no need to convert. There are 7 basic laws called the 7 laws of Noah which are what we believe that non-Jews have to do in order to be righteous.
post #59 of 305
:
post #60 of 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven
That is actually to my mind one of the great things about Judaism. Everyone can have a relationship with G-d and everyone can "get into heaven", no need to convert. There are 7 basic laws called the 7 laws of Noah which are what we believe that non-Jews have to do in order to be righteous.
Yeah, G-d is jus G-d -- not "for" anyone at all. Jews are special because they have the Torah.
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