Update...happy ending!--eye drops story and question!

[poetesss]

My cousin called me this morning to say that his wife has gone into labor and unfortunately he is several hours away from her due to work. As he's rushing to get to where she's at (in NY) he tells me that the hospital is giving a hard time about the eye ointment, and what should he do? I gave some suggestions and he called back later and said that they will wait until he comes before they do anything but they are warning them that the state law requires them to file a report detailing refusal of the eye drops to cps (what a freakin' waste of the state's money! : )

I suggested that he tell them he is opting for an exemption and is there a form he can sign? Or can they just put in on the chart that the parents refused and have them sign it. I also suggested that if that doesn't work they say that they plan to defer the eye drops to their first well baby visit with their ped. At the least I suggested that he demand up front that whatever procedures are done to the baby that he and / or his wife be present.

Anyone else have success with thwarting the cps card in this case?

[orangebird]

Yikes. I don't know. I had to have my DS see a different doc other than our regular doctor one time, I forget, he was sick or something, but when she saw we hadn't vaxed him she told us she was filing some papers with the state about us. So ridiculous! I would try the defering until ped visit but I don't know if that would fly in their eyes with the eye drops because it's all about what the baby picked up in the birth canal, so they want it done right away if it's to be done, YK? But still, I would try it. Why does the state have to be such a pain in the ass. And the CPS thing, that's crazy. I just don't see how that is CPS worthy, if I were in a state that was going to pull the CPS card over stuff like that I would never go to the hospital for sure. But in their case it's too late for that idea.

[Belle]

I don't see how that is CPS worthy either. Even if they did involve CPS I don't think that and sane caseworker would find that a problem.

I think that they're just bluffing. Have him tell the hospital workers that he'd be glad to discuss why he wants to waive the eye drops with a caseworker. More than likely they'll drop it.

[pamamidwife]

religious exemption. any patient can refuse anything under a religious exemption and BY LAW the provider has to comply.

[boscopup]

Does the wife have in her prenatal records that she is free of STDs? I think if CPS came knocking, that'd be a good thing to show them. The purpose of the eye ointment is to prevent blindness caused by picking up certain STDs in the birth canal. If the woman doesn't have those STDs, there's no medical reason to give the eye ointment. In fact, I'd probably ask the doctor how the baby is going to pick up an infection if the woman doesn't have any STDs.

It *is* probably the law that they have to have a signed waiver. I know that's the law in TN, where I'm hoping to birth out-of-hospital. My midwife has to turn in forms saying I've refused Vit. K and eye ointment. And if I were to refuse GBS or PKU, I'd have to sign a form for those too. I don't know if they go to CPS or not. I don't live in TN anyway, so they'd have to hunt me down.

And when I delayed vaccines for my preemie boy, my ped at the time had to send it in to the state that I had not gotten those vaccines at the appointed time, even though she agreed that it'd be better to wait until he was bigger. They usually vaccinate preemies on the same schedule as full term babies, which means if I'd followed that schedule, he would have been less than 7 lbs and would have not even been at his due date yet for the 2 month vax. Ridiculous! I never had anyone knocking on my door though. The state knew I hadn't vaccinated at that time, and they did nothing about it.

I think they probably just hand stuff to CPS so that IF you were ever investigated for something later on, they'd already have it on record that you'd done that. Still annoying, yes, but I don't think CPS will come knocking just because you refuse eye ointment.

[courtenay_e]

Yup, it's a law in Michigan, too. I'll have to check out the religious exemption, what a grand idea. The hospital where I had my babies (w/cnms) does call the social workers who threaten cps if you refuse the ointment, but the midwives are more than happy to wait 'till baby goes to sleep after nursing to put ointment in. Of course the powers that be at the hospital also mandate a test to LOOK for said diseases, during pregnancy, so they KNOW that I don't have them, just want to bully people about the whole thing. Other hospitals in the area are totally laid back and ask if it's okay and say it's totally fine to decline the ointment. *sigh*. More med style people, needing to throw some weight around, I guess. How tiresome.

[ckhagen]

It's "law" here too but... I all had to do was tell them that I was STD free and in a monogomous relationship and asked to sign the informed consent waiver.

[pbreffe]

Living in NY and having asked my midwife about it I can confirm that it is the law in NY regardless of your STD status or whether you are un a monogomous relationship. My midwife said that basically the hospital contacts the state and tells them you are refusing, so they temporarily take custody of the baby, stating you are unfit, long enough to administer the ointment and shot then they give custody back to the mother. You then have a file with CPS.

Stupid if you ask me!!

[Panserbjorne]

That is bizarre and disturbing.

[maxmama]

It's state law here, and I'm required to report to CPS if parents decline, regardless of the reason. I don't care, CPS doesn't care, but I have to report. There is no waiver for eye ointment in WA because to have a waiver would mean that we (the hospital) were planning to assist parents in circumventing the law, so we just write a progress note and document that it was declined and CPS was notified.

[Panserbjorne]

Weird. I never had any issues...lucky I guess.

[poetesss]

So here is what finally happened with my cousin and the drops. Long story but happy ending

First off, pbreffe is right about NY state law...it and the state of VA have the requirement of CPS reporting for eye drop refusal.

My cousin was *very* adamant that these drops not be admitted, so he spent a fair amount of time arguing with doctors and nurses. He explained that his wife was STD free, he used the culture and religion argument, and finally he told them "look, you have to admit that these drops are effective in preventing infection within the first 1-3 hours after birth. It's already been 24+ hours. Obviously, this is no longer about medicine but rather beauracracy and the hospital is just trying to cover its ass."

No go--they insisted that it was state law, and there was no option to sign out of it or claim a religious exemption. Next step, they sent a social worker to their room. She proceeded to ignore my cousin, who was the one handling the issue, and try to work on convincing his wife. She very patronizingly explained the "medical rationale" behind the drops, being very syrupy and ignoring my cousin's attemps to engage her. Finally his wife responded, "Don't patronize me. I have over 10 years of experience in the pharmaceutical industry and I am quite aware of what these drops are for." Go mama!

Anyway, the social worker gave them a final warning that the hospital would send a nurse with the drops and if they refused, they would commence the CPS reporting process. They requested a delay till the next morning. Meanwhile my cousin calls everyone he can within the department of health, CPS, etc, and everyone gives him the same answer.

Finally next day the nurse comes with the drops. In a last ditch attempt my cousin tells her, "How do you feel about the fact that I as a parent am being overruled by the state in a matter that obviously has nothing to do with my child's health and is mere beauracracy? Can you in all conscience administer this?" She explained that she *had* to, it was her job. He got back to the religion/cultural argument and it turns out that she's from a country where there are a lot of people of the same faith as his, etc. So he says to her, "If your hand slips and the drops spill, trust me, I won't notice." So she proceeds to smear the eye goop on the baby's face just under the eyes, then says out loud, "let me go ahead and clean off the excess." She cleans him up, checks off his chart, winks, and leaves. I wanna give that nurse a big hug

The doctors came back to see the mom/dad and when they saw my cousin with a contented smile on his face they said, "Well, sir, you seem to be taking this very well." Little did they know!!

[TurboClaudia]

Originally Posted by poetesss

So he says to her, "If your hand slips and the drops spill, trust me, I won't notice." So she proceeds to smear the eye goop on the baby's face just under the eyes, then says out loud, "let me go ahead and clean off the excess." She cleans him up, checks off his chart, winks, and leaves. I wanna give that nurse a big hug

The doctors came back to see the mom/dad and when they saw my cousin with a contented smile on his face they said, "Well, sir, you seem to be taking this very well." Little did they know!!

:

i want to hug that nurse, too.

and then laugh, laugh, laugh my head off with your cousin and his wife...

:

~claudia

[gentlebirthmothr]

Originally Posted by boscopup

Does the wife have in her prenatal records that she is free of STDs? I think if CPS came knocking, that'd be a good thing to show them. The purpose of the eye ointment is to prevent blindness caused by picking up certain STDs in the birth canal. If the woman doesn't have those STDs, there's no medical reason to give the eye ointment. In fact, I'd probably ask the doctor how the baby is going to pick up an infection if the woman doesn't have any STDs.

It *is* probably the law that they have to have a signed waiver. I know that's the law in TN, where I'm hoping to birth out-of-hospital. My midwife has to turn in forms saying I've refused Vit. K and eye ointment. And if I were to refuse GBS or PKU, I'd have to sign a form for those too. I don't know if they go to CPS or not. I don't live in TN anyway, so they'd have to hunt me down.

And when I delayed vaccines for my preemie boy, my ped at the time had to send it in to the state that I had not gotten those vaccines at the appointed time, even though she agreed that it'd be better to wait until he was bigger. They usually vaccinate preemies on the same schedule as full term babies, which means if I'd followed that schedule, he would have been less than 7 lbs and would have not even been at his due date yet for the 2 month vax. Ridiculous! I never had anyone knocking on my door though. The state knew I hadn't vaccinated at that time, and they did nothing about it.

I think they probably just hand stuff to CPS so that IF you were ever investigated for something later on, they'd already have it on record that you'd done that. Still annoying, yes, but I don't think CPS will come knocking just because you refuse eye ointment.

poetesss,

, to what Vera said to you above here.

Originally Posted by poetesss

So here is what finally happened with my cousin and the drops. Long story but happy ending

First off, pbreffe is right about NY state law...it and the state of VA have the requirement of CPS reporting for eye drop refusal.

My cousin was *very* adamant that these drops not be admitted, so he spent a fair amount of time arguing with doctors and nurses. He explained that his wife was STD free, he used the culture and religion argument, and finally he told them "look, you have to admit that these drops are effective in preventing infection within the first 1-3 hours after birth. It's already been 24+ hours. Obviously, this is no longer about medicine but rather beauracracy and the hospital is just trying to cover its ass."

No go--they insisted that it was state law, and there was no option to sign out of it or claim a religious exemption. Next step, they sent a social worker to their room. She proceeded to ignore my cousin, who was the one handling the issue, and try to work on convincing his wife. She very patronizingly explained the "medical rationale" behind the drops, being very syrupy and ignoring my cousin's attemps to engage her. Finally his wife responded, "Don't patronize me. I have over 10 years of experience in the pharmaceutical industry and I am quite aware of what these drops are for." Go mama!

Anyway, the social worker gave them a final warning that the hospital would send a nurse with the drops and if they refused, they would commence the CPS reporting process. They requested a delay till the next morning. Meanwhile my cousin calls everyone he can within the department of health, CPS, etc, and everyone gives him the same answer.

Finally next day the nurse comes with the drops. In a last ditch attempt my cousin tells her, "How do you feel about the fact that I as a parent am being overruled by the state in a matter that obviously has nothing to do with my child's health and is mere beauracracy? Can you in all conscience administer this?" She explained that she *had* to, it was her job. He got back to the religion/cultural argument and it turns out that she's from a country where there are a lot of people of the same faith as his, etc. So he says to her, "If your hand slips and the drops spill, trust me, I won't notice." So she proceeds to smear the eye goop on the baby's face just under the eyes, then says out loud, "let me go ahead and clean off the excess." She cleans him up, checks off his chart, winks, and leaves. I wanna give that nurse a big hug

The doctors came back to see the mom/dad and when they saw my cousin with a contented smile on his face they said, "Well, sir, you seem to be taking this very well." Little did they know!!

:, to how your cousin and his wife how they handle it. If I was I would report on the survey that shes given when they are discharged from there to report the nurse that put the drops on their sons face after they talked about because she had no right to do it in the first place. Or get an attorney, in my eyes a woman, and her sue the nurse, the other that they had contact with this issue.

When your cousin dw becomes pregnant with their next tell them to visit here, get a midwife, and give birth at home or freestanding birth center so they don't have deal with they dealt with this baby.