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I just saw the most horrible thing ever - Page 6

post #101 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by dove
yes, looking to others who are less fortunate can definitely put things into perspective, but it doesn't erase one's own feelings, nor should it. I don't see why the caring and compassion can't go both ways. That is what is actually really irking me. I remember feeling like I was just drowning in the absolute most horrific, hearwrenching time of my life, but it still didn't turn my ability to have compassion for others off, no matter what they were going through. I guess some people just have immense capabilities for caring and concern and some don't. I should not expect that of others, evidently.
Dove,
First, I am sorry for whatever you have been through. I don't know your story, but I wanted to address what you have said and let you know that I do have compassion and I do care for others. I have been through 9 months of hell. I feel completely empty inside but that does not mean I don't care about others feelings. It is very hard for me to show feelings to other people now b/c I am so wrapped in my own grief x 2. Something is important to everyone and I can respect that. What I have a problem with is the insensitivity that Kelly spoke of and that I have personally experienced. I try to think the best of people, but there is something a little bit cruel about a person approaching you and saying, "So, did you have a miscarriage or something? My sister had one of those and it was no big deal." Or, how about "Just be glad you can have more, honey." And yes, those were both comments made to me not 2 weeks pp. One was at my daughter's funeral!

Losing a child has taught me so many lessons about life that I probably would not have experienced had I not lost a child. I was overwhelmed by the caring and compassion of complete and total strangers from all over the world and also right here at MDC. I could write a novel about what people have done for us since Reagan died. People I will probably never meet, but that took the time out of their lives, their busy schedules, forgot about their own problems and completely enveloped my family with love.

Honestly, people need perspective sometimes. I have a hard time being compassionate and feeling sorry for those who mourn their birth not going the way they planned. They do have a right to how they feel but to say something like that to a mother who's arms are empty is completely out of line. Forgive me, but I would trade places with them in a second.
post #102 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dove
yes, looking to others who are less fortunate can definitely put things into perspective, but it doesn't erase one's own feelings, nor should it. I don't see why the caring and compassion can't go both ways. That is what is actually really irking me. I remember feeling like I was just drowning in the absolute most horrific, hearwrenching time of my life, but it still didn't turn my ability to have compassion for others off, no matter what they were going through. I guess some people just have immense capabilities for caring and concern and some don't. I should not expect that of others, evidently.
Yes, this is what i mean. I had a mc at 12 weeks - would i bargain with the devil and have another cs if it meant i could have a live baby? yes.

Do i think my mc was sad and terrible and unfiar - yes. A woman i was friends with at the time was 2 weeks behind me in pg. Right after i had the mc she said she hated her baby and wished she would mc. She punched herself in the stomach infront of me. She was having marriage issues. Did it really really really hurt me? yes. Did i lose it on her - nope - i figured she jsut didnt get it and her issues were so big to her that she could not see that she was being insensitive.
I know moms who have lost full term babies and i think "wow that would be so hard, i cannot even imagine" but it isnt up to me to decide whose grief is worse you cannot judge grief. Your pain is what it is and it is NEVER helpful to say "your feelings arent okay, you SHOULD BE GRATEFUL etc"

Like someone on another board siad "you dont tell a rape victim - hey it could be worse - at least you werent murdered"

Maybe this is the worst thing they have experienced to date. Maybe it will be the worst thing ever. You dont know and you cant choose thier pain and grief for them.

And again, i was not trying to be insensitive just saying this is the most horrifying thing i have ever seen. I dont work in an area where i see death or do surgery so this was shocking for me.
post #103 of 158
my son was an emergency c section after 20hours of hard labor. I am pregnant now and when I spoke to my OB I have already agreed to a repeat csection. does that mean that its an elective surgery for me? perhaps it does.. and maybe that makes me a lazy person in your opinion or a glutton for punishment but I will take my chance with other peoples opinions and what I feel is right for my safety and my unborn childs safety. I did not watch the video.. you scared me and I want to be oblivious. I just wish that by choosing a csection I wasn't frowned upon. I am a damn good Mama..and a cesarean Goddess to boot..:
post #104 of 158
Wow, I am really shocked and my emotions are a mess.

I was crying tears of sadness and happiness over Amy(HDM's), A_D's, and Finch's posts...and now I am just angry.:

I guess I probably need to stop reading this topic. I don't know if I am taking this too personally or what.....

The rape and murder comment is WAY OUT OF LINE! Don't even get me started on that.


Like Amy, I DO have compassion and I do care about people and their feelings. I think people have the right to complain about their traumatic births...but I also think it's important for those people to look at it in a different perspective. It really could be worse! That's the truth.

And for anyone that wouldn't let lose on someone who punches their own unborn baby in front of me....well I guess you are a better person than me.... I can't even explain my emotions on that subject. :
post #105 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaxmama
my son was an emergency c section after 20hours of hard labor. I am pregnant now and when I spoke to my OB I have already agreed to a repeat csection. does that mean that its an elective surgery for me? perhaps it does.. and maybe that makes me a lazy person in your opinion or a glutton for punishment but I will take my chance with other peoples opinions and what I feel is right for my safety and my unborn childs safety. I did not watch the video.. you scared me and I want to be oblivious. I just wish that by choosing a csection I wasn't frowned upon. I am a damn good Mama..and a cesarean Goddess to boot..:
post #106 of 158
I admit I only skimmed most of the thread.

First to the mamas who have lost babies and those who had traumatic c-sections.

I have had 3 c-sections, the first 2 were ok, the last one was a really rough surgery compared to the first 2, it wasn't the Dr. necesssarily so much as scar tissue and what not being an issue. I think experiences can vary greatly with this surgery.

I am hoping to TTC soon, and will have another c-section (elective- yes), I could not view the link from the OP, but it will give me something to discuss with my new OB should I be so lucky to get to it again. I will talk to him about my hopes for a more peaceful c-section (barring no problems with my health or a baby's), and explain the general respect for the "birth" that I want.

These discussions are always so very painful for so many

PS- as for the title of this thread, the OP should consider herself blessed if a a rough c-section is *truly* the most horrible thing she has ever seen.
post #107 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaxmama
my son was an emergency c section after 20hours of hard labor. I am pregnant now and when I spoke to my OB I have already agreed to a repeat csection. does that mean that its an elective surgery for me? perhaps it does.. and maybe that makes me a lazy person in your opinion or a glutton for punishment but I will take my chance with other peoples opinions and what I feel is right for my safety and my unborn childs safety. I did not watch the video.. you scared me and I want to be oblivious. I just wish that by choosing a csection I wasn't frowned upon. I am a damn good Mama..and a cesarean Goddess to boot..:
Everyone has to choose what they are comfortable with. And i did not ONCE say cs was lazy..i dont get where all these opinions "i" have are coming from??
post #108 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by a-sorta-fairytale
I watched a video of a live cs...i nearly threw up and had a bit of a panic attack

It was so violent. I have more to say but i just cant right now

http://www.or-live.com/distributors/NLM/rnh.cfm?id=213


ETA
OKAY, i am coming back on to "defend" myself. I had a cs. It was necessary BUT my baby suffered a stroke because of it. She has been permanently harmed. I was in maternal special care because of it. I signed out of the hosp AMA after 7 days. DD was in the NICU for 10 days. We are both still suffering (over 2 years later) because of this.

I am sorry that seeing a mother torn up and treated like meat makes me sick to my stomach. I am sorry that seeing a baby yanked up by her tiy little feet makes me have a panic attack. I did NOT say i am discusted with anyone who has a cs. I am so so horrified that it is such a "nothing" procedure that 30% of births are happening this way. Everyday i talk online with moms who are still hurting form thier cs. Being denied vbac. They have been bullied, lied to and pressured. I think the whole thing is sad. I think the doctor was rude and that baby had some trouble. Now with this disclaimer can i go back to showing a link that i think others would find interesting? Having NEVER seen it myself it was HORRIFYING to see what they did to me (actuallu this was better because at least they didnt take out her uterus to sew it up.
Just wanted to quote op to hopefully get back in line with the original topic. I am sad to see the insensitivity of posters advocating c-sections for others via thumbs up (more than once now - even a thumbs up for a mama who regrets her c-section and felt like it was rushed/unnecessary) in light of the fact that op was bringing this up specifically because of the way the video triggered her anguish over her own daughter having had a stroke and losing brain function from her operative birth.

I ,for one, want to talk about this more without feeling like we are trampling the feelings of those who have lost miscarried or given birth to a stillborn
babe. It seems to me to be two separate issues. The c-section might be in common, but the outcome and feelings are not. If it is too painful to listen to moms grieve their birth (with the result of a healthy baby or a baby who became disabled, as in the case of op) maybe this is not the thread to be on (saying this with the utmost respect). It is very appropriate to grieve birth issues and sometimes I wonder if living every day with a baby who has become disabled as a result of the birth/technique employed, etc is not so hellish in itself that we need to hear op out and give her some support here. What I find interesting is that despite having a disabled child secondary to her op birth, she is able to hear out other stories with compassion.

Thanks for listening. I was going to step back from this, but I feel it is important to continue without the anger and the battle over grief.
post #109 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly81
Wow, I am really shocked and my emotions are a mess.

I was crying tears of sadness and happiness over Amy(HDM's), A_D's, and Finch's posts...and now I am just angry.:

I guess I probably need to stop reading this topic. I don't know if I am taking this too personally or what.....

The rape and murder comment is WAY OUT OF LINE! Don't even get me started on that.


Like Amy, I DO have compassion and I do care about people and their feelings. I think people have the right to complain about their traumatic births...but I also think it's important for those people to look at it in a different perspective. It really could be worse! That's the truth.

And for anyone that wouldn't let lose on someone who punches their own unborn baby in front of me....well I guess you are a better person than me.... I can't even explain my emotions on that subject. :
Maybe i just rub you wrong. I did not ever say in this thread that cs is lazy - living healthy babies are not important - or start a debate on the merits of cs v vb.

I even stated many pages back that you can ALWAYS find anyone with a better situation or a worse situation. The woman i spoke about also ate nothing but junk (um 6 sodas a DAY!) throughout her pg - had a scare that she would have a very small unhealthy baby etc. I tried to gently support her because i CARE abot this baby and i care that she not get cut. She ended up with a perfect very short very pleasant home waterbirth. I was jealous about the unfairness of it all. I ate right, excercised read all the "good" books etc and i got cut and both my and my dd were hurt.

As for the rape/murder comment it is the same thing - they could have had it worse. I have gotten that comment before as i have the coment of "well it really wasnt a baby - 12 weeks isnt long enough to really be attached. youll have another" etc. It is the same vein of "you cant complain because i or someone else has it worse"
And when people were complaining of thier baby nursing all night while my dd was in the nicu i was thinking "well at least you CAN nurse your baby - my baby is too hopped up on drugs to be able to nurse and has a feeding tube"
But i didnt say it.
BECAUSE The "you could have it worse - you should be grateful " game is NEVER productive or helpful.

On another list i am on we frequently have a talk aobut this "grateful" line

When someone says "a healthy baby s all that matters" what they are saying is "healhty moms dont matter" "moms dont matter" sick babies dont matter" "dead babies dont matter"
They take value away from all those other groups.

I had an unhealthy baby so when i hear "all that matters is a healthy baby" i hear that both me and my baby dont matter.

Please go read this if you really think the "grateful" game is productive

http://www.birthtruth.org/grateful.htm

And again. I have felt sorrow, loss, etc. I have not met the sadness of losing a full term infant. I was told my dd and i were not going to make it that we would both die. But i stand firm in my resolve.

The "you could have it worse - you should be grateful " game is NOT productive or helpful.
post #110 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by dove
Just wanted to quote op to hopefully get back in line with the original topic. I am sad to see the insensitivity of posters advocating c-sections for others via thumbs up (more than once now - even a thumbs up for a mama who regrets her c-section and felt like it was rushed/unnecessary) in light of the fact that op was bringing this up specifically because of the way the video triggered her anguish over her own daughter having had a stroke and losing brain function from her operative birth.

I ,for one, want to talk about this more without feeling like we are trampling the feelings of those who have lost miscarried or given birth to a stillborn
babe. It seems to me to be two separate issues. The c-section might be in common, but the outcome and feelings are not. If it is too painful to listen to moms grieve their birth (with the result of a healthy baby or a baby who became disabled, as in the case of op) maybe this is not the thread to be on (saying this with the utmost respect). It is very appropriate to grieve birth issues and sometimes I wonder if living every day with a baby who has become disabled as a result of the birth/technique employed, etc is not so hellish in itself that we need to hear op out and give her some support here. What I find interesting is that despite having a disabled child secondary to her op birth, she is able to hear out other stories with compassion.

Thanks for listening. I was going to step back from this, but I feel it is important to continue without the anger and the battle over grief.
I too, thought I was done with this topic...

If you were in anyway referring to the thumbs up I gave Zaxmama....it wasn't a thumbs up because she had a c/s....... I really don't see any problem with c/s vs vaginal deliveries..the focus should be on what's important...the baby. It shouldn't matter how he/she was brought into this world. The thumbs up was because of her positive attitude! She wasn't going to sit and mourn her unideal delivery. She was willing to do anything (ie: elective c/s) as long as it benefited her child.

I am willing to bet most women would rather delivery vaginally, but that's not the way it goes all the time. Yes it's sad...but yes really there are worse things than a c/s. Period.

As far as thing mihgt not be the thread for bereaved mothers....you are a wrong. This thread was not titled "Let me mourn my brith experience, even thougt I had a perfectly healthy child" If that was the case, you bet I wouldn't have read it. I opened this thread because I thought it was really about something horrible. You may not like this but it needs to be said.... In my life experiene a C/s is not horrible. Watching doctors working on you dying child, watching them make mistakes, watching her fight for her life, and then in the end, holding her in your arms, crying, pleading for her life, she takes her last breath and dies, is something horrible. Having a funeral for your child is something horrible.
post #111 of 158
you continue to discount the feelings of mamas who have legitimate grief over their births by comparing their situation to yours. Having a healthy baby is not the only thing that is important.
post #112 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by dove
you continue to discount the feelings of mamas who have legitimate grief over their births by comparing their situation to yours. Having a healthy baby is not the only thing that is important.
I am not discounting it... I do actually feel bad for women who had a terrible birth experience, really I do. But I feel worse for the ones who lost their baby. Life will go one after a terrible birth, but after a loss, life changes completely. It's life changing. And for some, life doesn't go on.
post #113 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dove
Just wanted to quote op to hopefully get back in line with the original topic. I am sad to see the insensitivity of posters advocating c-sections for others via thumbs up (more than once now - even a thumbs up for a mama who regrets her c-section and felt like it was rushed/unnecessary) in light of the fact that op was bringing this up specifically because of the way the video triggered her anguish over her own daughter having had a stroke and losing brain function from her operative birth.

I ,for one, want to talk about this more without feeling like we are trampling the feelings of those who have lost miscarried or given birth to a stillborn
babe. It seems to me to be two separate issues. The c-section might be in common, but the outcome and feelings are not. If it is too painful to listen to moms grieve their birth (with the result of a healthy baby or a baby who became disabled, as in the case of op) maybe this is not the thread to be on (saying this with the utmost respect). It is very appropriate to grieve birth issues and sometimes I wonder if living every day with a baby who has become disabled as a result of the birth/technique employed, etc is not so hellish in itself that we need to hear op out and give her some support here. What I find interesting is that despite having a disabled child secondary to her op birth, she is able to hear out other stories with compassion.

Thanks for listening. I was going to step back from this, but I feel it is important to continue without the anger and the battle over grief.
Thank you again with your eloquence...


I am going to share though i wil probably regret it...i dont think i an be beaten down on this thread anymore.

I was mostly having a panic attack because now i see what they did to me..to my baby. It makes it so much more real. Now i can see how roughly they treated her, i felt it before, i felt the yanking, i head and felt them pull out my uterus to sew it up, i felt the staples and heard them going in. It was scary - i kept yelling at the comp screen for them to stop hurting that baby.

Once my dd was out and i was told she was okay i just sent somewhere else...that is what you do when your mind is telling you to RUN to FIGHT to get away form these people who are hurting you. That is what you do - hide somewhere else...

And yes, i am lucky. We both made it out alive. I had heavy therapy for ptsd from this whole thing. I cant drive by the hosp without my bp going up and feeling very frightened. Which is hard since the university is a block away and i find myself in that area at least 3 times per week.


I am lucky - dd nursed for 2 years after our bad start.
If you saw her you would think she was an average kid with just a bit too much aggression.

But, she didnt start to let us cuddle, hug, or hold her till she was around 18 months. Touch SCARED her. The neuro said "stroke babies" are often like this. So when i saw people cuddling close thier nursing newborns it cut deep as dd hated to nurse only because she HAD to touch me - so she would sit as far away as possible and actually hold the breast away from her.

She will still not really tolerate anyone to touch her head/neck at all. It freaks her out big time.

During her EI eval they said she has the emotional skills of a 13 month old and she may never catch up...that was the part of her brain that was destroyed. She doesnt get it when someone is hurt and sad - it doesnt connect in her brain. She has really innappropriate responses to things that should be sad or scary.

She doesnt hold a spoon

She still throws up out her nose. the neuro siad "yeah alot of tube babies throw up out thier noses for awhile - she'll probably grow out of it."

Yes it could be worse - she could still be on the tube. That does not mean i am not sad about what is.

I have busted my ass to work everyday on HEALING her. Getting her healthy. Damn right i am pissed that she could have been okay had they just not messed up.


They told me we would both die, but we lived...but add that to the trauma of having planned a hb and then having a cs.

And like that essay says it does play on your sense of womanhood.

The thought process is "i could not birth my first baby - i am not a woman"
"i could not keep my second baby alive - i am not a woman"
"i cannot get pg again - i am not a woman"

My mom had 5 kids - i was a footling breech at home - how could i NOT birth a baby??

Do i still feel for those who have never been pg? Whose children passed at birth? at 4 years old? Yes. But i still grieve. My grief does not take away from thiers and thiers does not take away from mine.

This is all i can say for now. Gotta go get my tire fixed.
post #114 of 158
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly81
I too, thought I was done with this topic...

If you were in anyway referring to the thumbs up I gave Zaxmama....it wasn't a thumbs up because she had a c/s....... I really don't see any problem with c/s vs vaginal deliveries..the focus should be on what's important...the baby. It shouldn't matter how he/she was brought into this world. The thumbs up was because of her positive attitude! She wasn't going to sit and mourn her unideal delivery. She was willing to do anything (ie: elective c/s) as long as it benefited her child.

I am willing to bet most women would rather delivery vaginally, but that's not the way it goes all the time. Yes it's sad...but yes really there are worse things than a c/s. Period.

As far as thing mihgt not be the thread for bereaved mothers....you are a wrong. This thread was not titled "Let me mourn my brith experience, even thougt I had a perfectly healthy child" If that was the case, you bet I wouldn't have read it. I opened this thread because I thought it was really about something horrible. You may not like this but it needs to be said.... In my life experiene a C/s is not horrible. Watching doctors working on you dying child, watching them make mistakes, watching her fight for her life, and then in the end, holding her in your arms, crying, pleading for her life, she takes her last breath and dies, is something horrible. Having a funeral for your child is something horrible.
And not to be picky but i did not have a perfectly healhty child as i have stated many times. But i guess like all things her "damage" is not "bad enough" to warrant my feelings.

And i do think cs is waaay to prevalent. i thnk it is important to work towards lowering the primary cs rate. cs is dangerous for mothers and babies. Yes in 5-10% of cases it is necessarry but even moms who have a necessary cs still deserve compassion. I still dont want my worst enemy to have a cs if it is not needed and even then i want it to be as peaceful as possible for her and baby. It isnt a fight against each other it is a fight FOR moms and babies.
post #115 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by a-sorta-fairytale
And not to be picky but i did not have a perfectly healhty child as i have stated many times. But i guess like all things her "damage" is not "bad enough" to warrant my feelings.

And i do think cs is waaay to prevalent. i thnk it is important to work towards lowering the primary cs rate. cs is dangerous for mothers and babies. Yes in 5-10% of cases it is necessarry but even moms who have a necessary cs still deserve compassion. I still dont want my worst enemy to have a cs if it is not needed and even then i want it to be as peaceful as possible for her and baby. It isnt a fight against each other it is a fight FOR moms and babies.
I've never once said that your daughter's birth wasn't "bad enough" to warrent your feelings. I have ONLY been talking about those who mourn a horrible birth, but get a healthy child. I never said anything about your personal situation. My opinions came from when this thread got off topic and was talking about how most c/s's were terrible.

Birth is dangerous for mother's and babies. There are risks with both c/s's and vaginal births.
post #116 of 158
I found elements of that "grateful" poem pretty annoying. I don't think of my son as having been simply "removed" from my body. Ya know, just because he wasn't pushed out of my vagina doesn't mean he wasn't birthed. You remove a tumor. You birth a child. My child is not a tumor.

I must say, and I'm sure this will step on some toes but right now frankly my toes are feeling pretty squished....there is an overly pervasive attitude here that c-sections are just flat out evil, and that a woman who has one has failed somehow. Starlets that had c/s for breech delivery (a legit reason to me, having seen gruesome results from vaginal breech deliveries) are raked over the coals for having "unnecessary" surgery. Maybe they felt it was necessary. Maybe the risks of a vaginal breech delivery were too great in their minds. Having a c-section doesn't make you the devil. I had a great c-section and by golly, intend on having repeats with any subsequent children.

So you don't agree with c/s. Fine. But not having pushed a baby out of my vagina does not make me a lesser mother nor does it make me a lesser woman. If a woman chooses UC or HBAC I don't go bashing her for being a reckless nutcase who's endangering her child's life. I swear sometimes I feel the need to put a scarlet "C" on my chest around here.

I just had to get that off my chest, it's been bugging me and festering for quite a while.
post #117 of 158
Whoa. I'm so done w/this thread. It's hurtful and I really hope those of you who think I'm uncaring and uncompassionate b/c of my loss never have to suffer a loss. FWIW, I'm not in a contest, but this thread needed some perspective and I'm not sorry for what I said.
post #118 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly81
Life will go one after a terrible birth, but after a loss, life changes completely. It's life changing. And for some, life doesn't go on.
Life changes completely for the mother who has a uterine or bladder prolapse, the mother who loses the ability to ever again get pregnant. Life changes completely for the mother who can never move the same way again because of a poorly done c-section, life changes completely for the woman whose traumatic birth reminds her of her past rape experience and so on and so forth.

Does the mother who lost her 12 year old to cancer trump the mom who had a stillborn? Is there a hierarchy of grief? Of course not. When patients in a medical setting are asked to rate their pain, they are taken at their word and then medicated accordingly. Why? Because there is no way for us to know exactly how painful, or life changing someone's traumatic experience was. For you the highest good would have been a live birth, some other women would feel differently. I miscarried a pregnancy, knowing now the problems that child had, I'm glad that the child did not make it into this world. I know that would make some of you think I'm Satan incarnate, but that's my right.

I just don't see the point in the competition here. Your pain is your right and it is valid, but if you can do nothing but put other mothers down for their suffering, then why say anything at all?
post #119 of 158
I am now done as well. For good this time.

What started all of this was the original post. It stated that this c/s video was horrible and that the OP almost threw up. Yadi Yadi Yadda.... Of course now the OP has changed the first post..how convient. In the first post there was no mention of how horrible her c/s was and the pain it caused her and her daughter. Had all of that been mentioned in the begining I feel this thread wouldn't have taken on the direction it did. And I am truly sorry for what she and her daugther endured or anyone that lost a child or anoyne else whos child suffered from a violent birth. I am not sorry for the people that whine about their birth not being "ideal", because yes, it could have been worse. Their child could have been born with developmental problems or died.

I also tried to give some perspective, but for the most part, most don't want to hear it. They think I am playing some sort of game.

For the record, rape and murder are NOWHERE near the same content as a loss or horrible C/S. I don't know how anyone in their right mind would believe so.

Lighten up, C/S's are not the end of the world.

If you reply simply to bash me, don't bother, I will not read it.

:

I am glad there were a few women on here that "Get it"
post #120 of 158
I see both sides. I can see why she would think it's the "most horrible thing ever" after reading her story.

I'm an elective c/s mama, and I think it's a wonderful thing. Especially for those who need it.

I was raped, and it was a very traumatic experience for me. If I had to watch that, I would feel the same way the OP is feeling about the c/s video.
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