I just saw the most horrible thing ever - Page 8

[MiamiMami]

Originally Posted by dove

I'm not brandishing you or anyone else.
Exactly the opposite. And about the mdc comment - I am wondering where is everyone???? I cannot even believe this topic is going largely undiscussed. Where are the women that have had c-section and are now wondering or hurting? Where are the gentle birth advocates??? Is this topic really that played out? Have we really retreated to our own corners? God, I hope not.

I'm here.
No, I don't think a lot of people have gotten the jist of this thread. Women who have had c-sections are not failures. I don't think I am a failure. I think the medical establishment has failed many women and babies. They keep us selectiveley informed on what our options are...or rather they don't give us any options. There is a lot of de-humanizing going on by the powers that be.
I am perfectly ok with a woman who has chosen an elective c-section who has done her research and come to the decision herself, because that means that she has taken matters into her own hands.

[MiamiMami]

Originally Posted by edamommy

eh? How about those sections that are 100% needed to ensure the survival of the child? Why are they not given creedance? Why make this mama feel like SH** for not being able to "preform"? Why cheapen The section-mama's birth experiance? WHY? 'Cause that's what happens to me every time I have to hear the constant section-bashing that happens here.

If I have another child I will anything and everything to not have a csection. yet, I do not want to have to "look down" on my ds's birth in the process.

Thats why dove specifically said "unnecessary"

[dove]

I am very deliberate and careful in my wording. I give what I am writing a lot of thought and have been a "birth the way that is best/safest/insert adjective here" advocate for well over a decade. Both in practice and in word. Please, if you are jumping on me, re-read my statements with care and without feeling personally attacked because you have had a c-section. Thank you and blessings.

[edamommy]

Originally Posted by dove

I am very deliberate and careful in my wording. I give what I am writing a lot of thought and have been a "birth the way that is best/safest/insert adjective here" advocate for well over a decade. Both in practice and in word. Please, if you are jumping on me, re-read my statements with care and without feeling personally attacked because you have had a c-section. Thank you and blessings.

was the video of the csection an unnecessary one? Or, are you all assuming it to be? As usual.

[Peppermint]

Originally Posted by MiamiMami

I'm here.
No, I don't think a lot of people have gotten the jist of this thread. Women who have had c-sections are not failures. I don't think I am a failure. I think the medical establishment has failed many women and babies. They keep us selectiveley informed on what our options are...or rather they don't give us any options. There is a lot of de-humanizing going on by the powers that be.
I am perfectly ok with a woman who has chosen an elective c-section who has done her research and come to the decision herself, because that means that she has taken matters into her own hands.

Interesting irony here. I am thinking on the subject which is banned here at MDC, another surgical procedure performed on women. Basically, the general attitude is that any talk or questioning of that is innapropriate, most here give any women in *that* situation the benefit of the doubt that she is doing what is right for her self and her body, her body, her choice. And most will deny to the end that the majority are done b/c of outside influence on the woman. Also- if someone dares to speak up saying that they regret *that* surgical procedure or that they are forever harmed by it, she is quickly silenced and met with utter distain for her words about her own experience.

ETA- if I linked to a video of said procedure, people would all assume that was the absolute worse case scenario of it and that in general, they are not that way at all.

[dove]

Originally Posted by edamommy

was the video of the csection an unnecessary one? Or, are you all assuming it to be? As usual.

it's not even really about that (to me). What I have come to in regards to this particular video is that if watching a c-sec gives someone who has had one a visceral, knee jerk reaction of pain and horror over what they themselves (and their babe) has been through, then that mama deserves our support and care, irregardless of our own experiences.
They deserve care and consideration.

please check your venom.

[dove]

Peppermint, your replies are so true. It's really very heartwrenching the way we end up treating each other.

[teacup]

I don't normally get involved in threads like this.

Perhaps I don't completely understand. In fact, I'm certain I don't, because I've not had a C-section. However, after reading some of the latest posts in this thread I feel secure suggesting to you, edamommy, that you and dove are on the same side (since sides have been discussed). Sometimes I wonder if the final straw comes along in a relatively unrelated situation and all our feelings are vented in that instance?

[Finch]

Sigh. Okay. I've fed my child and been outside for a little bit, now I feel like I can come back to this.

As for the subject of brandishing women who have c-sections here, Dove, I do not think you specifically do that. I see it a lot here, though. Here's an interesting question...has anyone ever thought, for even a minute, that maybe the reason so many women have so much agony and grief over c-sections is because of attitudes like the ones I see so much of here, that c-sections are horrible? Think about it. If all you ever hear from your peers (I consider this my peer group) is how awful c-sections are, and see them blasting women who have c-sections, talking about how awful epidurals and hospital births are, don't you think that gets into your head? Don't you think that those voices and opinions echo in the head and heart of a woman who has an unplanned c-section? If all you ever hear is how awful and abnormal c-sections are, or how violent they are, and then you end up having one, don't you think all of those attitudes of those surrounding you could even slightly contribute to the depression, rage, and grief?

I love natural childbirth. I love it when it works. But sometimes, it doesn't, and as an advocate for women, I think that all women should be able to embrace their child's birth and not be made to feel that they are somehow less because they had a c/s or vacuum assist or epidural or whatever.

My son's birth was an emergency. I imagine it looked pretty "violent," but to me it wasn't. LOTS of time is dedicated here on this board to helping women heal after having a c-section or a less than ideal birth. LOTS. But hardly anyone recognizes the fact that for lots of women, having a c-section was neither violent nor a tragedy, and that we (who feel that way) resent hearing about how awful our child's method of delivery was. Our feelings aren't validated, because a c-section is taboo. How dare we have a good experience? And if we state that we did have a good experience, well then, we just aren't "NFL material."

[dove]

Finch - hmmmm, YES!
thanks for coming back.

I could see how other women talking about how c-sections are horrible, etc, etc could spark feelings of _____ in women who have had a c-section. But, really, c-sections have been normalized in this society and I think what we are seeing is a backlash-type response to that. It really isn't "normal" to have a c-section rate of 30% (and up in some areas). So, I have to wonder that if a woman who has had a section hears this kind of discussion (or any kind of discussion) about c-sections, what is it actually triggering? It is my belief that we all have the innate ability to know what our bodies are capable of or what is right for our body or baby in the circumstance. So, if you having had an emergent/warranted c-section was truly, innately what needed to happen with you and baby to keep one or both of you safe and/or alive, great. But a woman who is rushed along, degraded, treated poorly, whose inner voice is drowned out by loud voices telling her she can't do it ends up with a c-section, she is going to have a hard time reconciling her birth and when she hears others talking about c-sections as generally unnescessary in the average birthing woman, she is going to start to question and hopefully start a process of healing and discovery.

[Finch]

I agree, there is a way too high c-section rate here. We're inching up to Brazil. Scary. I just...I don't know. I guess I look at it kind of like divorce. Divorce used to be so hush hush and anyone who had one was horrible and a failure. Now, because people have some greater understanding (we hope), people realize that divorce is not a failure, and for some, it is a blessing. Like my sister. She had a divorce that in truth was a good thing. But because of my parents' attitude and her church's attitude toward divorce (bad, evil), she has lots of anger and grief that she still struggles with daily. She cries all the time. It's been 6 years. She has so much baggage and so many bad messages internalized from those around her that she continually beats on herself and is just full of rage and guilt. It's awful.

I think the same way about *some* c-section moms who have grief. Because they hear all this talk about how awful c-sections are, and hear their peers talking smack about women who have them, they feel like total crap and feel that they have failed. Even if it *was* a valid section, a true emergency, they still feel like they failed, like their birth was violent and abnormal and somehow "wrong." No woman should be made to feel like that.

I understand very much how and why women grieve over c/s. I see that acknowledged all the time here. What I don't see getting acknowledged is that sometimes, for some women, a c-section is a good thing, not evil, not violent, not failing.

I guess what it comes down to is you, Dove, see a lot of women not getting their grief acknowledged or downplayed, and I see the flipside, women being made to feel badly for what was originally a good thing for them. We just see different sides of the same issue, I guess.

Edited 'cause I forgot how long it had truly been since my sister's divorce.

[Ruthla]

I watched this video and the only thing that really bothered me was the way the baby was treated after birth. Why did they leave her in a basinette to cry by herself? Why did they cut the damn cord before she started breathing- the placenta was still attached at that point!!! Why didn't they bring her to her mother sooner?

My guess is that, in this hospital, her treatment wouldn't have been much different following a vaginal birth.

I was also kind of surprised at how small the incision was- it seemed like the maneuvering of the baby out of the incision was so similar to maneuvering out of the vagina that I couldn't really see the point in cutting the mother at all. Then when they enlarged the incision a bit it made sense!

[dove]

Well, yes, my position here on this thread is that some women just do not get the support they need when they feel badly about their birth experience.

I do see your position (eta- this is in response to Finch) and I think it sucks, too. I would be livid if I had an emergent c-section and someone tried to make me feel badly about it. And I would respond to that without a doubt.

There is a time and a place for an operative birth. I'm really sad that you may have ever felt like your birth experience was cheapened or looked down upon.

[Finch]

Originally Posted by dove

Well, yes, my position here on this thread is that some women just do not get the support they need when they feel badly about their birth experience.

I do see your position (eta- this is in response to Finch) and I think it sucks, too. I would be livid if I had an emergent c-section and someone tried to make me feel badly about it. And I would respond to that without a doubt.

There is a time and a place for an operative birth. I'm really sad that you may have ever felt like your birth experience was cheapened or looked down upon.

Well thanks, I'm fine, though. Because I do it for a living, I guess I had a really huge buffer zone around me to deflect all the negative stuff. My c/s was necessary. I know that.

I don't want moms to feel bad on either side of the coin...for having a good experience or for needing to grieve.

Childbirth is just such a loaded issue.

[Monkeyfeet]

Originally Posted by Finch

Sigh. Okay. I've fed my child and been outside for a little bit, now I feel like I can come back to this.

As for the subject of brandishing women who have c-sections here, Dove, I do not think you specifically do that. I see it a lot here, though. Here's an interesting question...has anyone ever thought, for even a minute, that maybe the reason so many women have so much agony and grief over c-sections is because of attitudes like the ones I see so much of here, that c-sections are horrible? Think about it. If all you ever hear from your peers (I consider this my peer group) is how awful c-sections are, and see them blasting women who have c-sections, talking about how awful epidurals and hospital births are, don't you think that gets into your head? Don't you think that those voices and opinions echo in the head and heart of a woman who has an unplanned c-section? If all you ever hear is how awful and abnormal c-sections are, or how violent they are, and then you end up having one, don't you think all of those attitudes of those surrounding you could even slightly contribute to the depression, rage, and grief?

I love natural childbirth. I love it when it works. But sometimes, it doesn't, and as an advocate for women, I think that all women should be able to embrace their child's birth and not be made to feel that they are somehow less because they had a c/s or vacuum assist or epidural or whatever.

My son's birth was an emergency. I imagine it looked pretty "violent," but to me it wasn't. LOTS of time is dedicated here on this board to helping women heal after having a c-section or a less than ideal birth. LOTS. But hardly anyone recognizes the fact that for lots of women, having a c-section was neither violent nor a tragedy, and that we (who feel that way) resent hearing about how awful our child's method of delivery was. Our feelings aren't validated, because a c-section is taboo. How dare we have a good experience? And if we state that we did have a good experience, well then, we just aren't "NFL material."

Wow, you said it perfectly, thank you!

[a-sorta-fairytale]

I have gotten many pms from people who are afriad to post on this thread

They are afraid of being slammed for not being happy with their cs. This used to be the one place where you could be sad about it and not get a "you should be haaaaapppy you selfish git!"

I dont know...i am sorry this has incited so much infighting and has gone way off track. I know my own part was posting prematurely when my own fear and panic stopped me from giving more info. Apparently you all dont study up on me (i dont know why not i am very cool!) and know my whole life history.

I am sad it got devalued into an arguement about who has it worse.

I know a few moms who are fine with their cs and so so so many more who arent. WE feel what we feel.

[MaryJaneLouise]

Kind of OT, but I thank the OP for posting that link. I had a c-section, and the only regret I had was that my epidural/spinal didn't work, and I had to be given Versed/morphine for pain control. So I wasn't "there" for my babies birth -- I just remember waking up later and poof, there were 2 babies So this gave me an idea of what I missed. Thank you, it really wasn't as bad as what I imagined it would be

[babybugmama]

This thread has been reopened. However, please remember the UA when posting...especially the name calling, sarcasm, and snarkiness. I understand that when we discuss birth it can be a charged topic with value beliefs of all sorts. And when you have feelings of loss of any kind it is even harder to see and speak clearly. Please, be gentle with each other. We have all had loss of one kind and another. We can never imagine what it is to truly walk in another's shoes and experience their pains.