How do vaccines affect the body?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

This is an offshoot of a question asked elsewhere, and the "What causes autism thread".

I've stuck the post I put there...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...12#post5289412


here, to start any discussion:

Originally Posted by krissi

And returning to another angle with more of a vax connection, I would love to see more research done on how vaxing fundamentally changes the immune system and how immune hypersensitivity may interact with gut dysbiosis. The last few days in my own research quest I've been sifting through articles that mention how people with autoimmune disease like my own have hyperresponsivity to vaccines. I've often wondered if some kind of interplay exists with immune response and gut flora. What if, for example, some of those bacteria vaccines like Hib in a person with a hypersensitive immune system caused the immune system to attack beneficial types of bacteria too and that was what led to serious gut imbalances? If anyone knows of research that explores this possibility or an explanation for why it couldn't be true, I'd love to read more. This may be a stupid question that's already been discussed elsewhere but I've only been seriously reading about this type of stuff for about 9 months.

Okay, so lets run with this, since I've been wondering how to tackle this subject, because its important to know in the context of autism.

There are several aspects to this, so lets look at some of them:

Dan Olmstead has hit one on the head when he talked about one of Kanner children having got a smallpox vaccine at the age of 15 months, and then "regressed":

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/l..._Pox_--_Part_6

Kanner`s paper appeared in 1943 in the quaintly named journal The Nervous Child. Kanner believed autism was 'inborn,' present from birth. But if any of his detailed case histories suggest otherwise, it is Richard M.

There is no mention of 'going backward' by the parents of the other 10 children, making Richard the first plausibly regressive case of autism ever described in medical literature.

Thirty-eight years later, in 1976, an article appeared in a German medical journal under the title 'Autistiches Syndrom (Kanner) und Pockenschutzimpfung.' Translation: Autistic Syndrome (Kanner) and Vaccination against Smallpox.

The English abstract reads:

'3-4 weeks following an otherwise uncomplicated first vaccination against smallpox a boy, then aged 15 months ... gradually developed a complete Kanner syndrome. The question whether vaccination and early infantile autism might be connected is being discussed. A causal relationship is considered extremely unlikely. But vaccination is recognized as having a starter function for the onset of autism.'

U.S. health authorities emphatically reject the idea of any such 'starter function' -- they cite multiple studies that have found no cause-and-effect relationship whatsoever between immunizations and autism.

Smallpox vaccine was a pretty disgusting mix, scratched on to the outside of the arm, and while it didn't have any mercury of aluminium it was absolutely loaded with contaminants and made in a manner which would be unthinkable today, or should I say, people wouldn't "think" that something could be made that crudely.

So, what was the mechanism there? Infection into the brain?

How did that happen after a vaccine at the age of 15 months?

It would be interesting to know, for instance, what state Michael lived in.

For those who have studied the epidemic neuropathy in Cuba in the 90's, which the USA CDC first thought was polio, you will know that the residents of Guatamala Bay, while they also "caught" the Coxsackie virus, smoked and drank moonshine, had a diet high in selenium and other protective nutrients which studies later showed had protected them from any paralysis and neuronal damage.

We also know that selenium deficiency makes the flu worse, and increases the virulence of it, and its no coincidence that bird flu in both humans and bird is in areas of the world seriously selenium deficient.

Did Michael in Dan Olmsted's article live in a Selenium deficient State within USA?

http://www.saanendoah.com/map1.html

Did he have a mouth full of Amalgams and mercury overload?

http://www.*********/vaccine/quotes19.html

"I think that the biological case against Thimerosal is so dramatically overwhelming anymore that only a very foolish or a very dishonest person with the credentials to understand this research would say that Thimerosal wasn't most likely the cause of autism."--- Interview of Dr. Boyd E. Haley by Teri Small:

Then you have the Burbacher study which looked at mercury in the brain of monkeys which backs that up as one strand of the puzzle.

another quote from above

Toxic dentistry "A major cause of the Roman Empire's decline, after six centuries of world dominance was its replacement of stone aqueducts by lead pipes for the transport and supply of drinking water. Roman engineers, the best in the world, turned their fellow citizens into cripples. Today our own "best and brightest," with the best of intentions, achieve the same end through childhood vaccination programmes yielding the modern scourges of hyperactivity, learning disabilities, autism, appetite disorders, and impulsive violence."--Harris Coulter

America still has huge lead poisoning problems so what is the role of that in Autism?

then you have the MMR connection and I find it ironic that all Andrew Wakefield's detractors can come up with is looking where they shouldn't. Why is this researcher looking in the blood and not for MMR viruses in the gut and brain?

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/533545

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) May 31 - Contrary to the findings of some earlierstudies, measles virus genetic material was not detected in the blood ofMMR-vaccinated autistic children with development regression, according toa report in the Journal of Medical Virology for May.

A possible link between MMR vaccination and autism was first noted in a report released in 1998. Since then, several epidemiologic studies, conducted in various countries, have found no support for this association. However, in recent years, the controversy again surfaced as researchers reported finding measles virus genomic fragments in tissue samples taken from autistic children.

In the present study, Dr. M. A. Afzal, from the National Institute for Biological Standards and Control in Hertfordshire, UK, and colleagues used several assays to test for measles genome sequences in leukocyte preparations obtained from 15 children with autism who had received the MMR vaccine as part of the routine immunization schedule in the UK.

There was no evidence of measles genomic fragments in any of the children, by any of the methods used. The authors emphasize that the methods were "highly sensitive, specific, and robust" and were capable of detecting "measles virus RNA down to single figure copy numbers per reaction."

Given the rigorous methods employed, the researchers believe that measles virus material genuinely did not exist in the patient's blood samples. Moreover, "all children examined in this study responded positively to MMR vaccine and developed a normal immune response to the measles component of the vaccine."

J Med Virology 2006;78:623-630.

The least they could do is, like these people look in the right place!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...28/ixnews.html

Then another aspect to this has to be the role that aluminium in vaccines plays in deranging the immune system.

Revise this, from this post:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...29&postcount=7

Is it any wonder then, that you see this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...114328,00.html

THE number of children treated for life-threatening allergies to peanuts and other foods has more than doubled in five years, according to government research.

Figures from the Department of Health show the number of Adrenalin injections prescribed for children under six suffering severe allergic reactions rose from 15,100 to 37,235 between 1999 and 2004, an increase of 146%.

Jon Cruddas, MP for Dagenham and a member of the Anaphylaxis Campaign, a charity that lobbies for greater awareness of the condition, said: “These figures confirm what we have been saying for a while, which is that this is a growing problem. All the evidence points in one direction, which is a sudden and radical increase of anaphylaxis in the country.”

So you can see how in some children, aluminium could be one of the MAJOR components of allergy sensitization today, and all of you have seen articles posted here about the huge increase in allergies today. But what does aluminium also do to antigen components within a vaccine? Might it also set the body up to reacting to compounds in subsequent shots unrelated to food allergens?

then, don't forget this article here:

http://www.straight.com/Print_Page.cfm?id=16717

Vaccines show sinister side
By pieta woolley

Publish Date: 23-Mar-2006


If two dozen once-jittery mice at UBC are telling the truth postmortem, the world’s governments may soon be facing one hell of a lawsuit. New, so-far-unpublished research led by Vancouver neuroscientist Chris Shaw shows a link between the aluminum hydroxide used in vaccines, and symptoms associated with Parkinson’s, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS, or Lou Gehrig’s disease), and Alzheimer’s.

Shaw is most surprised that the research for his paper hadn’t been done before. For 80 years, doctors have injected patients with aluminum hydroxide, he said, an adjuvant that stimulates immune response.

“This is suspicious,” he told the Georgia Straight in a phone interview from his lab near Heather Street and West 12th Avenue. “Either this [link] is known by industry and it was never made public, or industry was never made to do these studies by Health Canada. I’m not sure which is scarier.”

Similar adjuvants are used in the following vaccines, according to Shaw’s paper: hepatitis A and B, and the Pentacel cocktail, which vaccinates against diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, polio, and a type of meningitis

To test the link theory, Shaw and his four-scientist team from UBC and Louisiana State University injected mice with the anthrax vaccine developed for the first Gulf War. Because Gulf War Syndrome looks a lot like ALS, Shaw explained, the neuroscientists had a chance to isolate a possible cause. All deployed troops were vaccinated with an aluminum hydroxide compound. Vaccinated troops who were not deployed to the Gulf developed similar symptoms at a similar rate, according to Shaw.

After 20 weeks studying the mice, the team found statistically significant increases in anxiety (38 percent); memory deficits (41 times the errors as in the sample group); and an allergic skin reaction (20 percent). Tissue samples after the mice were “sacrificed” showed neurological cells were dying. Inside the mice’s brains, in a part that controls movement, 35 percent of the cells were destroying themselves.

So there are obviously other things that Aluminium does, both as per the other post, and things not yet researched...

Also, I have another question. If mercury, AND aluminium can do damage independantly, what can they do together? What happens if you add flouride in the water (which potentiates aluminium in the water supply and makes it radically more toxic) and add in pesticides: There was this one, which I can't find a URL for:

Daily Mail Saturday 25th March 2006

Pesticides and Jabs 'to Blame for Autism Rise'

FIGURES SHOW RECORD NUMBERS OF CHILDREN ARE DIAGNOSED
FIONA MACRAE - Science Reporter


RECORD numbers of children are being treated for autism, figures have revealed.

More than 6,000 under-16s were diagnosed with the condition last year more than twice the number of new cases in the late Nineties.

The number of adults with autism and related conditions is also on the rise, bringing the total number of new cases in Britain in 2004-2005 to a record 9,170.

However the government figures which only take into account diagnoses by hospital consultants are likely to be the tip of the iceberg.

Other studies have estimated that as many as one in 150 children may have autism or related conditions such as Asperger's Syndrome.

Autism charities say the increase can be explained by a growing awareness of the condition. However, others believe the rise is linked to the MMR jab and even to chemicals found in pesticides. The MMR vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella hit the headlines in the late Nineties following research which linked it to autism and bowel disorders.

Although the research has been much disputed, take-up of the triple vaccine remains low, with many parents remain convinced it is linked to autism.

Paul Shattock, from the Autism Research Unit at Sunderland University, believes the vaccine has played a role in the surge of cases. He said: 'I am convinced the MMR jab is one factor in a small percentage of children but it does not explain the whole increase.'

He is also looking at a possible link between pesticide chemicals called organophospates and autism.

But the National Autistic Society said the increase in cases is likely to be explained by heightened awareness of the condition. A spokesman said: 'There are no known causes of autism and no known cure. But what we do know is that awareness has increased significantly among professionals and the public.

'I suspect a large proportion of the increase can be put down to the fact that people are just more conscious of the condition.'

The charity has been training health professionals to recognise the symptoms of autism at an earlier stage in a child's life. It estimates that around half-a-million children and adults in the UK have autism, although the majority remain undiagnosed.

'If health professionals continue to recognise autism symptoms, then the numbers will continue to increase,' the spokesman said.

The latest figures were revealed in response to a parliamentary answer to Tory health spokesman Andrew Lansley. They show that 6,170 children under 16 were diagnosed in hospital last year twice the 3,100 diagnosed in 1997 to 1998.

Among those aged 16 or over the numbers jumped from 1,110 to 3,000 in the same period.

Autism is a developmental disability that affects the way a person communicates and interacts with other people.

Although associated with childhood, the condition lasts into adult life, making ordinary activities like socialising difficult. It can also be found in highly intelligent individuals.

Some experts believe Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton both suffered a form of autism.

A Department of Health spokesman said techniques for diagnosing autism has improved greatly in recent years.

He added: 'There is no link between autism levels and the MMR vaccine. MMR remains the best form of protection against measles, mumps and rubella.'

[e-mail]

But if you put the title in Google it has been mentioned elsewhere.

given that they don't KNOW what vaccines do in the body apart from antibody production... see here:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...al-2305100.php

Vaccines work simply by producing antibodies, right? Well, probably not. And this misconception coupled with basic ignorance of how they do work is stalling the urgent quest for an AIDS vaccine, claim leading HIV researchers. They say no one has bothered to find out how highly successful vaccines like polio, measles and hepatitis B actually protect people from disease.

"I'm amazed by the amount of basic science we don't know," Philippe Kourilsky, director of the Paris-based Pasteur Institute, told the meeting: "We've had many successful vaccines over the past decades but we've missed a chance to see how these vaccines work. Each time a vaccine works the scientific community wanders off and leaves it to the public health workers to use it-and fails to invest in the research. If we had done that we would have been in a much better position to tackle the AIDS vaccine problem."

HOW....... are we going to sort out what does what?

It is obvious to me that vaccines play not just a major role in Autism for many children, but a whole spectrum of allergic or autoimmune conditions unrelated to autism in other children.

Seemingly, though, there are children who can have all these vaccines and NOT be affected. Why is that?

To research the issue, scientists would have to look at WHAT vaccines do in the body, keeping in mind that there will be so many variants of that, that its impossible to have a one size fits all answer to all children, and they would also have to research in in four catagories. Formula fed, breastfed, developed world, third world countries.

Though I'm sure there would also be sub catagories in that, like socioeconomic factors, education and a whole raft of things to make it even more complicated.

The point is, where do you as a parent start in trying to unravel the problem for your child?

For many parents they can point directly at situations involving toxic drugs, lead, vaccines which are all epigenetic in nature.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I deleted the question I asked Krissi, as that is specifically related to autism, but how about we discuss the whole broader field?

Okay, so whose next in the discussion?

[sohj]

g-Bump!

[krissi]

Oh goody. A new thread! This is such a fascinating subject.

I want to reply on this again from the perspective of my own health rather than DD's autism as I did in the other thread. I strongly believe that vaccines need further study for interplay with autoimmune diseases for reasons that have nothing to do with thimerosal.

First, I have a less than optimal understanding of how vaxes work, but since I've been reading about food allergies, I've seen a claim that the body stops producing antibodies when not exposed to an irritating substance for a set period of time. So, in order for us to have lifelong immunity to any disease, does that mean that the viruses have to take up permanent residence in our tissue? I am assuming something like this happens since chickenpox causes shingles later on. And then, wouldn't it be a natural conclusion that if you stimulate the immune system to respond to those viruses that are taking up residence in the tissue the wrong way, that the immune system might begin to attack the tissue that's hosting the virus?

Especially if the immune system has been messed with via stuff like aluminum?

I'd love to hear that this is scientifically implausible for some reason, but I've been reading this about my own condition, IgA nephropathy. Apparently the condition has been induced in laboratory rats with both the polio vaccine and the Hib vaccine (but of course my kidney doctor says neither causes IgA nephropathy in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

And the immune system is established as "hyperresponsive" in people with IgA nephropathy:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=329762

So mightn't it be a logical conclusion that diseases like IgA nephropathy, in which IgA deposits in the kidney cause progressive kidney damage that may or may not lead to renal failure, that the cause might be similar to Wakefield's findings re: measles virus in the gut? Maybe I have polio virus or something like that stuck in my kidneys and my immune system is attacking it with IgA? And maybe something like that could be the cause of stuff like arthritis and lupus and other autoimmune diseases?

This study sounds like it might support my theory, mentioning the presence of HepB antigen in renal tissue of a girl with glomerulonephritis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Oh, and IgA nephropathy occurs frequently in children...incidentally the most likely to be receiving vaxes. And the so-called treatment is drugs that suppress the immune system, like corticosteroids.

Just putting some further thoughts out there for discussion.

[taterbug1999]

Not sure if this is exactly relevent to this thread, but I forwarded the recent info on the Wake Forest researcher who found similiar "Measles in the gut" like Wakefields to a friend of mine who vaxes, but one ds has autism spectrum disorder and her mom has MS. She replied saying that her mother told her she had read research done on MS patients post mortem that showed measles in the gut as well. Have you all heard this too? Thought it was interesting...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

[krissi]

Further thoughts on this. I researched this study a little bit more:

The effect of sodium cromoglycate on the induction of experimental IgA nephropathy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

I learned that sodium cromoglycate is an agent that is supposed to prevent allergic reactions:
http://www.drugs.com/cons/PMS_Sodium_Cromoglycate.html

I wonder why they would be even studying the interaction of such an agent with a vaccine for this disease unless they have already concluded that the disease is caused by a vaccine response. And if I'm right, how many other autoimmune diseases might this be true for? And given that this study took place 16 years ago, I wonder where the research went from there. I am half tempted to pose as a reporter and start calling these scientists to find out.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Well, bearing in mind that they haven't tested vaccines for toxicity... who knows what they are thinking?

http://www.fda.gov/cber/minutes/tox120202.htm

[krissi]

Oh my... Am I reading this right?

I promise you that I will not give you the answer to the question of whether vaccine can cause autoimmune disease.

So the fact that this is being discussed at such a presentation means that it is very much up for debate even among pro-vax scientists.

If we go to the Group B meninges capsular polysaccharide vaccine, again we have an antigen which is very similar to capsular polysaccharide which is expressed in humans developing neural tissue.

So they're saying that in this vaccine, they are admittedly attempting to develop antibodies to an antigen that is "very similar" to developing brain tissue??? Even if they don't give this vax to children (which I don't know), what might those antibodies do if they crossed a placenta or through breastmilk?

We know also that some infection induced T-cells can be associated with an autoimmune disease. And here I list a few examples, which are rheumatic heart disease, chronic Lyme arthritis, or reactive arthritis where T-cells and corresponding epitopes have been identified.

So can one predict the risk of autoimmune response if there is a mimicking T-cell epitope on a vaccine? First, again, we go to the computer and search for sequence homologies with the human protein data bank, looking for small peptides which are homologous, six to nine [inaudible].

And there usually you get in despair. Because what you find is a large number of homologies. Here you just have an example from a study which was done by Joel Tonnard [ph], who gave me this data, where the frequencing of sequence similarities has been studied between tetanus toxin and 15 human proteins. And you can see that at the six [inaudible] level more than 200 human proteins have peptide similarities with tetanus toxin and tetanus toxoid. Even if you go to the eight [inaudible] level with one mismatch, you still have 95 proteins which have similarities. So if this would be important, no one could be immunized today with tetanus toxoid.

This is some scary stuff.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Ohyeah. Like this too:

Historically, the non-clinical safety assessment for preventive vaccines has often not included toxicity studies in animal models. This is because vaccines have not been viewed as inherently toxic, and vaccines are generally administered in limited dosages over months or even years.

As Dr. Midthun mentioned, the Office of Vaccines is giving consideration to whether or not, prior to proceeding into phase I clinical trials, there is going to be extra consideration given to whether or not non-clinical safety assessments will need to be supported by toxicity testing in animals.

And so we basically wanted to answer two questions: For which product category type should toxicity testing be performed? And, how to best design appropriate toxicity tests for preventive vaccines. Just to go over now what we're here for today and what we hope to accomplish, we plan to discuss, and would like to invite you to discuss, the methodologies to determine potential adverse effects of new vaccines and adjuvants. We plan to discuss toxicity study designs and animal models, relevant animal models.

And it could be tissue necrosis at the injection site during animal studies. Kidney lesions, also: I observed this kind of lesion in primates after the administration of a cancer vaccine with GM-CSF as an adjuvant. Also, a vaccine antibody binding to animal tissues. And we observed that with polysaccharide Meninges-B vaccine. However, this binding was not associated with adverse reaction. During clinical studies, I have listed here some adverse reactions. The old but very bad story of the Formalin inactivated RSV vaccine.

Sometimes we have to add some specific investigations to this classical toxicology study. And it is really on a case-by-case basis. I have tried to present here some examples. But I think it will be very difficult in a guideline to list all potential tests which can be required to assess the safety of a vaccine.

This one is extraordinary in the context of why the meeting was called - to work out how to test vaccines for toxicity. How is it that the first part contradicts the second?

Okay. So now I would like to conclude on this presentation by saying that a few decades ago vaccines were considered as safe, ipso facto. I think it's clear for all of us that today vaccine safety is thoroughly evaluated as well as all pharmaceuticals.

PARTICIPANT [In Audience]: My question to Francois was what he means with the cardiovascular importance introduced in the toxicity study, especially in primates. And when I was involved at the RAVM in the vaccine studies on pharmacology and toxicology, we found out that there were important cardiovascular effects on the blood pressure of the classical pertussis vaccines. And I am wondering whether this is a more general feeling in the vaccines, or whether it has been studied even?

PARTICIPANT [In Audience]: Have you given a look at the liver; as there are old studies on BCG and the effects on Hexobarbital duration, effects on Hexobarbital duration, sleeping time. Is there anyone that has included this type of evaluation in their vaccines? DR. VERDIER: I didn't get all the words. You mentioned the liver? PARTICIPANT [In Audience]: The liver, the liver metabolism, and Hexobarbital sleeping time is affected by the [inaudible] vaccine, and maybe also by pertussis vaccine. DR. VERDIER: No, we didn't do this type of specific assays. We have, obviously, the liver as part of the organs for the histopathological examination. We have also some liver enzymes as part of the clinical chemistry parameters. But we don't do any functional assays on the liver. We focus on hypertoxicity for some vaccines. I have in mind a yellow fever vaccine and [inaudible] vaccine using the yellow fever virus. In this case, we do some investigation on the liver, but it's mainly in vitro assays, rather than additional parameters in animal studies.

And another very specific question that I think was touched on towards the end by the first speaker, Dr. Sutkowski, and that is a great many vaccines are given to either newborns or very close to newborn humans. So I'm interested in hearing some discussion about whether the relevant age is newborn or suckling animals. And I'm not sure how commonly that's practiced, but I'd like to hear some discussion of that. Thank you. DR. HARGUS: Thank you. Who would like to take that? Francois? DR. VERDIER: I think you touched here on a very important question: Do we have to use juvenile animals for a pediatric vaccine? You know probably that there are new guidelines for pediatric drugs. I think today we need to get more information about the immune system of juvenile animal models. We are not yet ready to use these juvenile animals in toxicology.

Just a few gems huh?