Arg!!! Bible and spanking...again...

[mrsfatty]

So I'm in a bit of a debate with a friend about what God has to say about spanking...and I of course, had this awesome debate...then he goes he throws this in my face:

There are two specific Proverbs passages that I studied that I cannot get beyond to say that physical correction (spanking, etc.) is not biblically consistent. The first is Proverbs 22:15 which reads (from the NKJV):

"Fooishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him."

Earlier in this section is the familiar verse discussing training up a child in the way they should go, and when they are old, they will not depart from it (Proverbs 22:6). I find it hard to translate this concept of correction of with a rod as anything but physical reprobation. Again, I do not find it proper biblical hermenutics to interpret this as merely symbolic.

Furthermore, the strongest passage is Proverbs 23:13-14. It reads,

"Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell."

And I asked him if he really thought that in bibletimes parents hit their children with shepherd's rods...and if so, shouldn't parents of today hit with shepherd's rods instead of their hands...couldn't this be an analogy??? He hasn't responded to me...but what do you think about those two passages in relation to gentle discipline?

I hope this is ok...I just didn't know where else to talk about it--It's so frustrating to have Christians justify this kind of violence, in the spirit of "God says so"...when I feel that the completely opposite approach is correct.

[mama_b]

I don't believe that those passages are meant to be taken literally. As a Christian it makes me angry that others use these passages to justify hitting children.

[nora--not a llama]

I don't think that Christians should by any means disregard the teachings that can be found in the OT, but I think we are considered the NT church. Christ changed everything for Christians when he came, and we are followers of Christ, not bound by the old laws. That's just my take on it. HTH.

[Quinn'sMommy]

I'm not a christian but I do respect Jesus and I don't believe he would ever hit a child or tell someone else to do so.

[MissRubyandKen]

I'm not christian, but here's my opinion. How many different MEN'S hands has the bible passed through? How many times has the bible been rewritten and retranslated, some parts edited out, some parts added in? For that matter how many DIFFERENT translations and versions of the bible are out there today? Tell your friend to compare his bible version to several others and read the DIFFERENT translations for THE SAME EXACT PASSAGE before he decides HITTING A CHILD is something HIS GOD or JESUS would want a MAN to do, rather than a MAN'S literal translation of OLD, OLD words in a BOOK that have passed through several languages and hands over many, many years. Sounds more like a justification than a decree of divine will, IMHO.

[boongirl]

Aren't there all sorts of passages in the bible that even the most ardent christians don't follow? For example:

Deuteronomy 22 5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this. 11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

There are passages about how a man should not be sent to war in the first year of his marriage and passages about how men can have more than one wife, all sorts of things that American Christians mostly do not follow. So, why can't you interpret the passages about spanking children as arcane and not in keeping with modern christianity?

[familylove]

Originally Posted by Quinn'sMommy

I'm not a christian but I do respect Jesus and I don't believe he would ever hit a child or tell someone else to do so.

MissRubyandKen I'm not christian, but here's my opinion. How many different MEN'S hands has the bible passed through? How many times has the bible been rewritten and retranslated, some parts edited out, some parts added in? For that matter how many DIFFERENT translations and versions of the bible are out there today? Tell your friend to compare his bible version to several others and read the DIFFERENT translations for THE SAME EXACT PASSAGE before he decides HITTING A CHILD is something HIS GOD or JESUS would want a MAN to do, rather than a MAN'S literal translation of OLD, OLD words in a BOOK that have passed through several languages and hands over many, many years. Sounds more like a justification than a decree of divine will, IMHO.



Follow your mommy instincts!

[Joannarachel]

The general consensus is that when those Scriptures mention 'rod' the translation is specifically a Shepherd's rod, which was never used to hit sheep, simply to guide them in the direction the shepherd wanted them to go.

Tell him to check up on his linguistics and history before misusing scripture.

[GooeyRN]

WWJD? Can you see Jesus spanking a kid? I sure can't!

[coloradoalice]

Originally Posted by Joannarachel

The general consensus is that when those Scriptures mention 'rod' the translation is specifically a Shepherd's rod, which was never used to hit sheep, simply to guide them in the direction the shepherd wanted them to go.

Tell him to check up on his linguistics and history before misusing scripture.

That's exactly what I was going to say! Shepherds would never hit a sheep, that would scare them and scatter them and create distrust. They used the rod to guide them, coax them, direct them. Totally different implications!!

[dulce de leche]

www.aolff.org does a good job of addressing those verses!

[Melis]

Hello
I just wanted to "second" the PP's suggestion to check out the link she provided. It's awesome and helped me a lot. You will also find many good threads on this topic at www.gentlechristianmothering.com.

[canadiyank]

Also, I've found it intriguing lately that people think beating your kid can deliver him from hell. Hmmm. Really? Why do we need Jesus then, if we can beat salvation into him? Also, a few versus earlier it says to slit your throat re: gluttony...

[Charles Baudelaire]

Originally Posted by mrsfatty

So I'm in a bit of a debate with a friend about what God has to say about spanking...and I of course, had this awesome debate...then he goes he throws this in my face:

There are two specific Proverbs passages that I studied that I cannot get beyond to say that physical correction (spanking, etc.) is not biblically consistent. The first is Proverbs 22:15 which reads (from the NKJV):

"Fooishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him."

Earlier in this section is the familiar verse discussing training up a child in the way they should go, and when they are old, they will not depart from it (Proverbs 22:6). I find it hard to translate this concept of correction of with a rod as anything but physical reprobation. Again, I do not find it proper biblical hermenutics to interpret this as merely symbolic.

Furthermore, the strongest passage is Proverbs 23:13-14. It reads,

"Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell."

And I asked him if he really thought that in bibletimes parents hit their children with shepherd's rods...and if so, shouldn't parents of today hit with shepherd's rods instead of their hands...couldn't this be an analogy??? He hasn't responded to me...but what do you think about those two passages in relation to gentle discipline?

I hope this is ok...I just didn't know where else to talk about it--It's so frustrating to have Christians justify this kind of violence, in the spirit of "God says so"...when I feel that the completely opposite approach is correct.

Okay, to me, it's actually very simple. Ask him these questions, if you want:

1. Are you a Christian?
2. Who's the most important person to Christians?
3. So, Christ is more important than, say, Matthew?
4. How about Peter? Paul?
5. How about Abraham? Moses?

I am assuming that he will say "Yes" to #3-5. If he does, then ask him why Christ is more important than all of them.

6. So, if Abraham said X and Christ said Y, which one should a good Christian follow?
7. So, if the Old Testament said "An eye for an eye," and Christ said, "Turn the other cheek," which should I do?

By then, you have him boxed into a corner: you have him admitting that a central tenet of the Old Testament's law (an eye for an eye) is superseded by the Christian idea of "turn the other cheek." You have Christ being more important that Abraham and Moses, and that logically includes anyone of lesser importance...like Isaiah, whom I believe was the attributed author of Proverbs.

So, at this point, you get to move in for the coup de grace:

9. How hard did Mary spank Jesus?

If he argues that Jesus never misbehaved, bring up the fact that Jesus ran off from his parents and hung out in the Temple until they were frantic.

10. Would Jesus spank?

That should get him. Bottom line, if you're a Christian, you do as Christ does, or you try to. Otherwise, you're not really a Christian. You're a Testamentarian, or some other such thing, but you're not a CHRIST-ian.

[mrsfatty]

Thank you!

But I think I need more...we'll see what he says to my last comment...

...he really does believe that the wisdom of proverbs is applicable today...even though Jesus demonstrated a different response.

[Wugmama]

on askdrsears.com there is a section on interpreting the rod versus - that is pretty helpful.

I know, this is the most frustrating thing ever. It is the one thing that has me on the verge of turning away from the church.

~Tracy

[Millie Ivy]

One other thing to add to the wisdom already shared...

He said there was nothing to suggest that the proverb was an analogy. Ask him how it could be written that beating with a rod surely will not kill. The only way to take that statement is as an analogy! Beating with a rod *CAN* kill some one!

[angelpie545]

Originally Posted by mama_b

I don't believe that those passages are meant to be taken literally. As a Christian it makes me angry that others use these passages to justify hitting children.

As a Christian I do have to agree with you. I personally think when Jesus says "rod" He means discipline in general, not a rod to hit with. In those times, a rod was used to guide sheep. The sheep *feared* the shepard with his rod, becuase they knew he would keep them in line. When I say "fear" I don't mean the sheep were afraid they would hurt them, they just knew they had to listen to them.

I believe that Jesus simply means that we should not let our children run wild but rather guide them and raise them to be respectful and diligent. I do not think He meant we had to spank our children by any means. I think He was more saying that we need to protect our children and love them with discipline to warm their hearts to Him. I don't think by any means he mandated us to spank them, but rather to gently discipline them.

In Ephesians, it says "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right."
It also says in Ephesians "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger" and also in the new Testament(I'll have to find the passage and book, sorry: ) again no to provoke your children to anger and dishearten them. This, IMO, reiterates that we need to take great care with our children and discipline them with love and nuturing, not with anger and humiliation.

[Charles Baudelaire]

Originally Posted by mrsfatty

Thank you!

But I think I need more...we'll see what he says to my last comment...

...he really does believe that the wisdom of proverbs is applicable today...even though Jesus demonstrated a different response.

Then hit him -- metaphorically speaking, of course -- with this: Jesus said, "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 7:12). Apparently, Jesus knew that there would be people out there who basically would not get it, and so he thoughtfully provided the Cliffs Notes version of his philosophy: that the whole of the law, the summary of the Law and the Prophets, all comes down to treating others as you yourself would be treated. The next time your friend offends you, would he appreciate it if you spanked him? How about if you offend him? That puts another twist in the "turn the other cheek" idea, doesn't it?

Bottom line -- no pun intended -- your friend is ignoring the fact that Jesus' philosophy is fundamentally incompatible with much of Old Testament philosophy, and helpfully enough, the Bible happens to agree on this point.

Proof:

Ephesians 2:15 states, "He [Jesus] did away with the law of the commandments in regulations." Moreover, Galatians 2:14 states, "I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal. 2:14).

In short, if your friend is a believer in the Old Testament's law and believes that it supersedes the philosophy of Christ, then by all means, I suggest he convert to Judaism, although learning Hebrew's a real pain.

If he wants more proof that the New Testament's law supersedes the Old for Christians, check these references. Good luck to your goy friend on his conversion.

(Rom.13:8,9 & 3:21 & 7:6 & 13:8 & 13:10 - 2Cor.3:5,6 & 3:13,16 - Gal.2:12 & 3:2,3 & 3:5 & 3:10 & 3:11 & 3:19 & 3:23 & 3:24,25 & 4:31 & 5:2 - Eph.2:15 & 3:4,5 - Phil.3:8,9 - Col.2:14 & 2:16 & 2:20 - Heb.8:7,8 & 10:20).

[canadiyank]

Some people just aren't going to be convinced...I believe the "rod" verses speak to discipline...how that looks is going to be different in every family. I would speak my conviction that the Bible does not say you *have* to spank and that non-punitive discipline works well for our family.