Spanking from an anthropologic perspective - Page 2

[Trinitty]

It is often argued just how many hundreds of thousands of years old the modern human race is, discoveries are made every year that push the "date" back farther, if "it" can ever really be pin-pointed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4526264.stm

Regardless, I meant modern day humans AND our older incarnations/ancestors when I said millions of years. Hominids.

I should have been more specific though!

[crissei]

I know thats what you meant. I was just trying to be funny.:

[freewitheft]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

But perhaps its not so much that hitting is natural, so much as its a sign that a lot of other things they are experiencing are NOT natural.

Everything from shoes to carseats to diapers to arranged playdates to the nuclear family itself, and on and on.

Well, duh, I should have posted the website b/c there is a lot to be read there until one gets the book.
http://www.continuum-concept.org/

I think this is a good overview article:
http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...an-nature.html

I think it's interesting to note that this book was not written as some kind of parenting manual. It was intended to help us, as adults, understand our own issues and challenges due to our society & conditioning as compared to the Yequana - people who have no word for "work" in their language and are full of joy. Sears then extrapolated her ideas into parenting "how-to's".

[freewitheft]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

so if there is a tribe of humans that never ever does, even as children, I would find that really exceptional.... although I wouldn't need THAT as proof not to spank children.

Yeah, according to Liedloff, the Yequana are pretty exceptional and most other tribal societies have moved away from their continuum in one way or another. The only thing she mentions that even remotely qualifies as "discipline" among them is a "tsk tsk" kind of sound when a little one soils the floor inside a hut, to remind him/her to go outside to eliminate. And that's the key - to give them reminders, rather than shame or punishment.

I hear ya about your cousin. My boys are the same way - no guns, t.v.-free, etc. but there has been some hitting and pushing. I think it would be about 99.9999% impossible to raise them completely isolated from the conditioning of US society, because there would be no one else for them to ever talk to! Not to mention that I would have to completely erase my own conditioning in order to raise them that way (I've come a long way, but still...).

I do have to say, though, that there has never been an incident of one of them chucking a wooden truck at the other's head, which I was told by one AP'er (at another board) would most definitely happen at some point. They've never played the "I'm ripping off my diaper every chance I get" game, the "I'm going to run in the opposite direction instead of following mom" game, or the "I'm only eating PBJ's this week" game, etc. I really believe a lot of it can be chalked up to my expectations (or lack of), whether or not they've been verbalized. Liedloff discusses this, I think in one of the online articles too, about how we relate our *real* expectations to children even if we don't mean to. For instance, overpraising or saying something like "WOW, look at what you did!" very enthusiastically tells the child that you are surprised and didn't really expect it of them. :

[2bluefish]

Hi, I read this thread today and have really been thinking about - had a rough day with dd (20 months). First I wanted to give a to Trinity for thinking about this parenting stuff ahead of time. It's true that there's alot to learn "on the job", but I encourage anyone who wants to think about it ahead of time.

I feel my discipline is mostly gentle, but I too have problems with the no punishment, no consequences aspect of GD. However, I had some thoughts on spanking/hitting. First I *do* think that hitting/physical agression is a completely natural way for animals to interact. I have herd animals and pack animals in my household/on my homestead, and they all use physical agression daily. Second I do find that posturing and nonverbal communication is very effective with toddler age children. They pick up very subtle cues, just like animals. However, animals do some cruel things - sometimes when hormones, environment, etc. isn't right, mothers savage their young; fathers fight agressively with their sons for alpha status, etc. - things that are not and should not be socially acceptable within the human herd/pack/tribe.

The fact is when the heat gets dialed up, the hormones get to raging, the environment is stressful, etc., even the most gentle, loving mother can turn savage. In those times we fall back on what we've been practicing. The mother who smacks little hands may find herself reaching for the fly swatter (especially if the fly swatter was used on her as a child). The mother who nags all day long will yell and scream. The mother who has learned to react with humor, tolerance and love, will... that blank is hard for me, because I really haven't seen it modeled much, but I'm betting the results are better.

[lauraess]

subbing

[Trinitty]

Crissei, no worries, I knew you were trying to be funny, but I’m a major geek and love the study of ancient man, so that’s why I got excited and posted links.

2bluefish, thanks for the thumbs up. I’ve always been interested in human development, pregnancy, etc. I find it fascinating in a Jane Goodall kind of way.


Very interesting points on the animal behaviour that many of you observe! I’ve noticed very similar things in the animals I have contact with.

So, perhaps what we could strive to do is to create or foster an ENVIRONMENT in which the natural thing to do IS be calm and constructive, rather than triggering the fight or flight instinct due to stress?

When food is nutritious and the home is safe and clean and time can be spent thinking and planning, and discussing, can we say that spanking or hitting is less likely to “naturally” occur due to a lack of knee jerk reactions caused by frustration and strain?

Could the consciously created calm home atmosphere perhaps be a microcosm of “civilization” or higher learning using reason, one in which violence is disapproved of?

Or is that too high-handed, considering the tribal behaviour that has been referenced by freewitheft? Is hitting and spanking and other forms of physical punishment or alteration less frequent in some tribal societies when food is plentiful and conflict with other people or the weather is minimal?

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

So, perhaps what we could strive to do is to create or foster an ENVIRONMENT in which the natural thing to do IS be calm and constructive, rather than triggering the fight or flight instinct due to stress?

I love that! What a wonderful place to take this discussion

Or is that too high-handed, considering the tribal behaviour that has been referenced by freewitheft? Is hitting and spanking and other forms of physical punishment or alteration less frequent in some tribal societies when food is plentiful and conflict with other people or the weather is minimal?

Makes sense to me!

[Joannarachel]

I have nothing remotely intelligent to contribute at this moment but this thread has been a fascinating read. Please continue

[mollyeilis]

That is REALLY interesting about the submissive pose, and how spanking while in that pose (er, adult spanking with child in submissive pose...OOH that just reminded me of an old movie in the Thin Man series where the husband takes his wife played by Myrna Loy over his knee and spanks her *in front of HIS parents*...the movies are SO great and that scene is SO awful...) defeats the purpose.

I've recently been watching DS and our cat greet each other in a natural kitty way by bonking heads together, so thinking more about all that is cool. And if he gets rough, I will only take him away from her, but I do remind him that HER natural consequences towards those who are bothering her is to use her claws, and that if someday I can't take him away she might very well scratch him...she has hissed at him once, and he's been FAR more gentle since then, it scared him so much.

*******

"So, perhaps what we could strive to do is to create or foster an ENVIRONMENT in which the natural thing to do IS be calm and constructive, rather than triggering the fight or flight instinct due to stress?"

Absolutely. That's what my big experiment has been these last 2 years.

My mom was a lovely woman and did her absolute best, but she had been abused by her father, and MY father abused her as well. She had really only seen those sorts of family dynamics, so while I don't remember her ever spanking us, she had QUITE a temper. Look of death, tone of death, and when I was a teenager we would frequently engage in slap-fests while arguing (so embarrassing to think about now).

I too have a temper (had anger management therapy in my 20s), and sometimes DS, who is now 2, drives me to the BRINK.

So what I work on is keeping myself OK, so the natural thing for me is to be calm, and to NOT react out of rage.

****
I'm interested why some people see GD as having no "natural consequences" and/or no consequences at all? I'm no expert, but I don't understand that. Conversely, I become utterly mystified to try to figure out how, say, hitting, would be a "natural" consequence of just about anything, unless you're in a boxing ring or something.

[pookel]

Originally Posted by mollyeilis

I'm interested why some people see GD as having no "natural consequences" and/or no consequences at all? I'm no expert, but I don't understand that. Conversely, I become utterly mystified to try to figure out how, say, hitting, would be a "natural" consequence of just about anything, unless you're in a boxing ring or something.

I once was in a debate with someone who said that spanking would be a "natural consequence" for a toddler who shoved a peanut butter sandwich into the VCR. I had to ask, why don't you just say, "the VCR is broken now, so we can't watch videos for a while"? Is there anything more natural than that? (No, I didn't get a satisfactory answer.)

[marsupial*mama]

Trinity wrote:

Could the consciously created calm home atmosphere perhaps be a microcosm of “civilization” or higher learning using reason, one in which violence is disapproved of?

Are you familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs? According to Maslow, once an individual's physical and emotional needs are met a person becomes capable of much higher functioning leading to self-actualisation. I think avoidance of violence would be one aspect of that.

1. Physiological (Biological needs)
2. Safety
3. Love/Belonging
4. Status (Esteem)
5. Actualization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

[Piglet68]

Trinitty: as a scientist myself, and an avid follower of evolutionary behavioural theory, I can totally relate to your question. I, too, have given a great deal of thought to how GD "fits" with human behaviour. I practice punishment-free (including so-called "consequences") discipline, and this is how I look at it.

While there are great similarities between humans and apes, I think one thing that distinguishes us is the ability to make a concious choice between our instinctual response and an alternative response. While this isn't always possible, we humans do attempt to do it, with greater or less success depending on the individual. Example: the priest who dedicates himself to a life of celibacy; the spouse who dedicates themselves to monogamy with their partner; the provoked person who chooses to walk away rather than fight back, the hungry person who chooses not to steal food from a weaker individual, etc...Every day we make choices based on our version of morality.
I don't believe apes do this.

To me, and my own personal morality, hitting those who are weaker than myself is unacceptable. I first came across this issue with horse training: many people use the excuse that horses nip and kick at each other as part of their herd dynamics. And while I find most such people are so inept at "speaking horse" that their hitting doesn't approach an attempt at communication, the fact is I, as the human, am in a position of power over this animal and can use my higher brain to come up with better ways of training that don't involve crossing my moral boundaries.

Similarly with children, I don't believe in hitting. I also don't believe in punishment. And it's not just morality, either. I actually think they are ineffective tools, given my goals as a parent.

I think both these things trigger the "fight or flight" response of a child's brain and thus are ineffective at anything other than behavioural modifications (at best). Plus, I believe they serve to amplify that response so that it comes into play in situations that a person might better "think their way out of". My goal as a parent is to stimulate the "problem solving" part of the brain, the higher parts of the brain that deal with "emotional intelligence" (for an idea of what I mean by that, read the book of same name by Daniel Goleman). Thus, punishments work on the wrong region of the brain for what I'm trying to achieve.

I believe that any parent, armed with the tools of GD, can successfully raise and discipline children without every resorting to punishments (physical or "consequences"). And, given the goals of most parents (which are loftier, I dare say, than the goals of your average ape primate), I believe that such an approach to discipline will yield much better results.

[Catrinel]

Originally Posted by freewitheft

[...] The tribe Liedloff was with had children who absolutely did NOT hit, ever.

There is, however, an instance in that book where a father hit his child.

[freewitheft]

Wasn't that a man who had lived away from the tribe for part of his life (it's been a while...)? Same as the man who loafed for several years before deciding on his own to work? Same as the child who had spent time in a village and hit some of the Yequana children? I think it's really quite amazing that they weren't contaminated by outsider behavior b/c it seems like we (humans I mean) are so easily influenced and affected by it.

There's also an instance of a father (not an outsider, came up with it all on his own. lol) building a makeshift playpen out of sticks, but he realized what a mistake that was when the child started screaming. I think Liedloff's point is that the difference between them and us is that they live much closer to their continuum and are therefore more in touch with what is naturally right and wrong, so mistakes aren't repeated (let alone touted as legitimate parenting "choices", like we do in Western society).

[rmzbm]

Originally Posted by freewitheft

There's also an instance of a father (not an outsider, came up with it all on his own. lol) building a makeshift playpen out of sticks, but he realized what a mistake that was when the child started screaming.

Yes, that was impressive to me. After all his hard work constructing it he immediatly broke it apart when the little boy was upset. None of this "You don't appreciate what I do for you" crap!

[mollyeilis]

Originally Posted by freewitheft

I think Liedloff's point is that the difference between them and us is that they live much closer to their continuum and are therefore more in touch with what is naturally right and wrong, so mistakes aren't repeated (let alone touted as legitimate parenting "choices", like we do in Western society).

Plus, no one was spending $100+ on a fancy pack n play, falling in love with how cute it is (even I admit that those things, when looked at without the thought of what they are for, are dang cute), imagining the baby in it cooing and such.....only to have it so soundly rejected, necessitating packing it all back up, saying goodbye to the cuteness, and driving ALL the way back to babies r us to return it and get hassled b/c maybe the receipt disappeared.....


EDITED b/c I thought I was in the CC tribe.

[tatermom]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

For example: in a family group of primates, say, chimpanzees, if a young chimp starts acting up, jumping all over the mother, etc, she puts up with it for a while, and then pushes him or her away and ignores him or her, doesn’t give attention to the behaviour and it dissipates.

If the situation escalates, say, if an older “child” bites or hits an infant, or insists on nursing with the infant, the mother will physically discipline the perpetrator. She will yank him or her away from the scene, or smack him or her, or bear her teeth and scream at the older child.

So, while hitting the buttocks seems to be counter-culture when it comes to primate behaviour, hitting in general is not.

Interesting thread... don't know how I missed in in the past few days! I'm an anthropologist (primatology) and I just wanted to comment on the primate angle. One of the species that I study are bonobos (pygmy chimpanzees) who, along with "common" chimpanzees, are our closest primate relatives. The above quote may be a valid description of chimpanzee interactions, but it's not generally true for bonobos. Bonobo mothers are very gentle with their offspring, and essentially never punitive with them (this has been noted by many primatologists). They are famous for the "make love, not war" approach to social interaction in general, and they demonstrate quite a contrast to the fairly violent social interactions found in chimpanzees. So, when we are talking about what is "natural" for primates, there is clearly some variability, and if we are thinking about what our ancestral heritage might have been, it is equally as likely to have been the "gentle bonobo" type than the chimpanzee one that everyone usually knows about. Just thought I'd throw that out there...

[Trinitty]