ARGH, I guess Dr. Sears had easy kids....

[AllyRae]

Seriously. I just went through amazon.com and the ONLY books on strong willed children were written for parents who spank. Most of the books were done by James Dobson. I need something for *my* strong willed child--the one that refuses to listen to ANYONE. The one of whom redirection, talking, time-outs, modeling, removing priveleges, and even bribing don't work. The one who flat out has a mind of his own and nobody can get through to him.

Where's the AP book for my kid. :sigh: I need something...anything... How do you AP a child who is so strong willed that the entire Gentle Discipline book just doesn't work on him? Tonight we are removing all of his toys except a handful of them (and we'll just rotate toys) because I'm sick of him throwing every toy he owns on the floor and then staging 2 hour long protests when it's time to clean it up. I am already at my whit's end with the food dumping and the bolting out the back door when he's supposed to be cleaning and the ignoring of everything we say.

I love my kid, but man...why hasn't anyone written an AP book for kids like this? Either we're just AP failures and our kid is ruined or people with kids as strongwilled as mine just turn to James Dobson or people with kids as strong willed as mine are too dang busy dealing with our strong willed kids to actually have time to write or read a book like this...

[Cate]

Have you tried Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka? I haven't read the whole thing yet... keep meaning to (I have a *very* strong willed, independant, stuborn (but sweet, adorable, smart, I love her to death) daughter). It seems really good, and I've heard a lot of good things about it.
I hope you find a way through. Parenting spirited children is deffinatly a challenge.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by Cate

Parenting spirited children is deffinatly a challenge.

Amen to that one. The Fussy Baby Book was my lifeline when he was a colicky high needs baby. Now that he's a very strong willed almost-preschooler it's a whole different ballgame. : I should have seen this one coming when he became way too independent.

I haven't tried that book yet--I'm going to see if my library has it and if so, I'm headed there tonight. I'll try anything. I don't want to break his spirit or cause him to lose his strong will. But I want to know how to work with it so that I'm not stressed every time I know that we're going into another multihour battle.

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by AllyRae

I'm sick of him throwing every toy he owns on the floor and then staging 2 hour long protests when it's time to clean it up. I am already at my whit's end with the food dumping and the bolting out the back door when he's supposed to be cleaning and the ignoring of everything we say.

Holy cow..... our kids are twins Seriously though, I just posted in here a question/rant about Owen this morning. Much to the same tune you did : 240ish miles away and they still act the same :

[AllyRae]

Steph, we do have the same kid. Then again, they do share some genes. : Or maybe Brandon taught Owen a little something about being strong willed.

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by AllyRae

Or maybe Brandon taught Owen a little something about being strong willed.

I forgot to thank you for that Now get him over here to teach Owen a thing or two about the potty and all will be forgiven

[DevaMajka]

It sounds like you need more than techniques from a book. Perhaps a new perspective for both you and ds.
I'd suggest The Continuum Concept. It changed all my perceptions of kids.
Or perhaps Becoming the Parent You want to Be. I like their discipline stuff a lot.

Tonight we are removing all of his toys except a handful of them (and we'll just rotate toys) because I'm sick of him throwing every toy he owns on the floor and then staging 2 hour long protests when it's time to clean it up. I am already at my whit's end with the food dumping and the bolting out the back door when he's supposed to be cleaning and the ignoring of everything we say.

My ds is quite cooperative. But I know he'd do what your ds does, if I *insisted* on him helping clean up toys. lol. I think that sounds like a normal toddler to me!

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by AllyRae

Tonight we are removing all of his toys except a handful of them (and we'll just rotate toys) because I'm sick of him throwing every toy he owns on the floor and then staging 2 hour long protests when it's time to clean it up. I am already at my whit's end with the food dumping and the bolting out the back door when he's supposed to be cleaning and the ignoring of everything we say.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. It isn't easy with toddlers, especially ones with extra spirit. If I may make a suggestion, why don't you wait until he's asleep and then pick up his toys? Or as he finishes playing with one toy, go over and say, "Oh it looks like you are done with this toy, so let's put it away," and then put it in the toy box casually. It may be that he is freaking out because you are putting all the toys away at once.

He is 2 right? Two is too young to expect to sit there and clean up when you tell him to. Ignoring everything you say is so frustrating (believe me I know!), but to be expected at this age. I think you need to change your expectations and get to the bottom of what's bothering him.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

My ds is quite cooperative. But I know he'd do what your ds does, if I *insisted* on him helping clean up toys. lol. I think that sounds like a normal toddler to me!

I kinda agree here, though I know we haven't heard the whole story. My dd is 6 months older than your ds, and I know her response to time-outs and removing priveleges would be a power struggle. Trying to punish my dd has only ever resulted in huge fights. I also avoid power struggles like the plague, however, so maybe you're less wimpy than me. Seriously, though, with some kids I think that unless you're willing to punish them severely, you shouldn't try at all. Does that make sense? Or sound crazy?

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by natensarah

Seriously, though, with some kids I think that unless you're willing to punish them severely, you shouldn't try at all. Does that make sense? Or sound crazy?

Doesn't sound crazy at all. Its exactly right. If you are going to use punishment to change behavior, then use something harsh, or you will simply be teaching them to tolerate discomfort.

There's an interesting study on this. I don't have a link because I didn't see it online; I read it while working with kids with developmental delays. Basically, when you use punishers, if you start out with what is "reasonable" to meet the behavior, over time that punishment ceases to work, and you have to try something a little harsher.

Better to not use punishment at all, IMHO.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by natensarah

Seriously, though, with some kids I think that unless you're willing to punish them severely, you shouldn't try at all. Does that make sense? Or sound crazy?

Makes total sense. I could see that ds might be that way if we were more authoritarian. (That's just based on times I've reacted harshly, and his reaction to that)

[Dar]

The Sears had a high-needs child - Hayden. Google "Dr Sears Hayden."

I think searching for something that will "work on" a child is missing the point, though. I'd focus more on adjusting expectations and creating situations where your son can succeed...

dar

[mamaley]

Ok, I know you were asking about books, so I hope it's ok if I share some personal experiences.

My son is almost 6, and for the most part is an absolute angel. I mean, a really good, sweet, kind kid. But when he was a toddler...well, let's just say it's a miracle that ds has a little sister. It was SO hard. My dd is extremely spunky but she is also pretty easy to discipline. Ds on the other hand was so difficult for me at that age. He'd hit kids on the playground. Throw tantrums everywhere. When I would say something to him in attempt to discipline, it was like he couldn't hear me. Time outs didn't do anything.

Somethings that helped, some of which you probably know about:

*know his patterns. If he melts down at 3pm, try not to do anything in the afternoon. Etc. Not that this always worked, or even worked most of the time. But it did help.

*give choices, and stay firm. "We're going now. Would you like to go out this door or that door?" Again, didn't always work, but helped.

*Use "this too shall pass" as your toddler mantra. When he is older he will not be like this, as long as you continue discipling. It's hard, and it's long, but you've got to hang in there until this stage passes. With ds, I thought it was his personality and not a stage but thankfully I was wrong.

*Try to get some time to yourself.

Probably not very helpful, but I've so been there and it was so hard. I feel for you. Good luck

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

He is 2 right? Two is too young to expect to sit there and clean up when you tell him to. Ignoring everything you say is so frustrating (believe me I know!), but to be expected at this age. I think you need to change your expectations and get to the bottom of what's bothering him.

It's even just one toy. If I ask him to put one toy away because he's done with it, he'll run and dump over buckets and shelves of toys on the floor. It's so not funny.

I know he *can* clean though--at kindermusik he gets mad at the other kids because he wants to clean up all of the stuff at the end of each session. He just hates cleaning at home I think...

[boheime]

Originally Posted by Cate

Have you tried Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka? I haven't read the whole thing yet... keep meaning to (I have a *very* strong willed, independant, stuborn (but sweet, adorable, smart, I love her to death) daughter). It seems really good, and I've heard a lot of good things about it.
I hope you find a way through. Parenting spirited children is deffinatly a challenge.

I checked this book out from the library. Coming from an unconditional parenting type of place - I didn't care for a lot of the advice in the book. It was, however, worth reading for the information on where your kids are coming from and thinking - spirited kids are sensitive kids.

[AllyRae]

Thank you everyone... : Another thing I forgot to mention is that he also has SID, and is currently being screened for a PDD, so we've had to work with that a lot. He usually is very cooperative, but cleaning his toys and eating without dumping his food (on purpose...not even on accident) are two things that we've been struggling with for a very long time. He's very much "I'll do it this way and my way is right".

I won't clean everything up *for* him because that's what he wants...I will gladly help him, but he needs to be a participant in the cleaning. But, he just stages sit-ins (I swear, I need to set him up with PETA or something...he's very good at protests). Making it into a game worked for about a day. Then he caught on, flipped it around on us and tried to make it into a game for me to clean it up myself (smart kid...)

I do know what's bothering him--he hates when we say something he doesn't agree with. At kindermusik, he'll clean for his teacher and he'll volunteer to clean. At a friend's house he'll clean when it's time to go. For us, he won't do it. I guess toddlers do that but he's just more strong willed than the average toddler--he came out that way at birth I think. I don't want the room to be completely clean, but I do want him to respect his belongings by making sure that he takes care of them (by putting them on the shelf when he's done or whatnot...right now, he'll chuck them at the brick fireplace when he's done with them. It's leaking into him being disrespectful of the family belongings too by using something and then throwing it and leaving it). I guess maybe he'd do better if he didn't have so many toys out tempting him to throw them, so that's an issue I'm going to resolve (seriously, he has away too many toys).

I do hope that he can be strong-willed and determined without driving me to the rubber room though. :

[Aeress]

I would go with the floor time plan model because with a child who tends to be on his time all the time, you will be less fustrated. have you read anything by stanley greenspan?
in floor time, you follow the child's lead and vary how you respond to the child to get them to connect and respond to you.
i know what you are saying about picking up but i think if you start trying different approaches to your interactions with your ds, then you may find he is connecting with you more to get things done.
o.k. with that said. I am working with a little boy, who throws everything all the time and will not clean up, no matter what and we just started using signs (in last few months we have been signing, but he has started using in hte last few days ) and following his lead and he is interacting with us so much more intently.
I hear your fustration

[kindacrunchy]

Haven't read all the posts but I just wanted to highly recommend the Raising your Spirited Child book by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. It has helped in a lot of areas. Now we are working on him getting enough nutrition and sleep. Get the book. It helps you identify his temperment, you and your husband's, where you might gel and clash and how to work with the differences so everyone is happy. I highly, highly recommend it!

[Tonia80]

I disagree with saying he is too young. I have three hn kids so I can relate to your stress here. I am in no way saying my kids are angels. BUT I have had to make certain things non negotiable in our house. Like, they clean thier own messes up, they do NOT ruin out of teh house without asking first, they help daily with a chore and they do not hurt people with words or physically. If they break a rule (btw, they are 5 and 3) I get down to thier eye level and speak firmly but qyuietly thatthey cannot ____(throw toys, yell at me, bite the baby, etc...) I remind them that if they do it agian they will need a time out. I do not yell or strap them ibn a chair. time out can either be time alone on a mat in teh hall or on my lap in my room. Just a time for them to gather themselves as often they melt down due to overstimulatin or tiredness. They are free to get up as soon as they are calm and can acknowledge in some way the thing they did wrong by apologizing to me or picking up tehtoy, etc....
I agree about working with his personality. I love how stubborn and determined my son can be because it will serve him well in th future. BUt it is my responsibility to guide him in teh right direction with his determination. He can have his own opinions without disrespecting other people. I expect the same from adults. You can disagre with a persons religious beliefs but you dont go throw eggs at the church they attend. KWIM?
He may just be bored withthe toys. My kids have alot too and what I do taht works wonders is I only keep out a third at a time and the rest are in bins in a closet. Every week or two I rotate so its new stuff for them. You would be amazed how QUIET my home is that first day with teh "new" bin of toys!
Maybe he would help you more with tidying up if you made a chart of some kind where he could put stickers or earn rewards as he went along? I am not thrilled with the bribery concept but habve done it myslef. It worked wonders for us and now my kids have discovered how "fun" it is to clean house and they fight over who does the bathroom. (weird kids) LOL And perhaps when he throws a toy put it up for its own time out. I do that with my 3 yr old and it only took a coupe days of this before he realized he hated it. He would lose the toy for a day and it got the message sent home easy. I think iots different to make it clear you expect respect from him then to squelch who he is.

[mbravebird]

Originally Posted by AllyRae

I won't clean everything up *for* him because that's what he wants.

I do know what's bothering him--he hates when we say something he doesn't agree with. At kindermusik, he'll clean for his teacher and he'll volunteer to clean. At a friend's house he'll clean when it's time to go. For us, he won't do it.

Both of the things you said above sound like power struggle issues, which are hard for both of you, but *can* be avoided, although it's certainly more difficult with a spirited child. For example, not cleaning up for him "because that's what he wants" you to do is actually YOU initiating the power struggle. I know it feels fair to you -- I hear ya. But maybe what he needs, and what would avoid the power struggle, is you telling him how you feel when you clean up by yourself -- as you continue to clean up. That way you're focusing on the relationship between the two of you, not his compliance or non-compliance. As you de-escalate the situation, he may feel the freedom to follow suit. Or he may not. This is where you may want to "take one for the team", and just continue relationship building, even when he is pushing your 'power struggle' buttons.

FWIW, I am not a very "pick up after myself" type of person. I love a clean house, but I only have one about once a week. I am the type of person that lets things get messy and then cleans it all up with great joy and satisfaction. Luckily, my husband is the same way. In our house, you might hear me say to my 2 year old, "It's cleaning day!!" and proceed to fill our morning with cleaning-related activities, which he either marginally helps with or undoes after me. I offer him chances to help many times, which he sometimes takes me up on. I find he feels most satisfied and successful when I give him very specific information, like "Will you put this in the red basket, please?" But if he doesn't want to, or forgets on the way there, or puts it in the blue basket, I don't make an issue of it. At the end of all the cleaning activity, I am usually exclaiming with satisfaction at the room, like "Look how clean it is in here!", because I am genuinely excited about it, and I find he follows suit. He also notices when it is messy, just like I do. It seems that he is actually learning to value the clean house, even though I have never asked him to value that.

The reason I described that to you is not to pressure you into being a less clean person -- I envy you for having a clean house all the time; I would love it. But I am saying that toys being picked up every night does not in itself have intrinsic value. It is something you value, and I think it's totally fair that you communicate that to him. But, in order to avoid power struggles, you may have to cop to the fact that he just doesn't value that cleanliness yet, and by getting into power struggles with him over it, you may actually be tainting whatever future cooperation and enjoyment he may be able to learn from you. You may just want to set the example, find a way to connect with him as you do it, and move on.