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post #41 of 216
subbing and a bump...
post #42 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plummeting
You know, Wolfmeis, I was thinking about how you were probably feeling, when you said some posts were "insulting". I actually know exactly how you feel, and poor JaneS, it was her posts that offended me, too, in the dental forum. That was a while back, and I've realized since then that I was only offended because I didn't like what she was saying. I've also realized that she doesn't usually post unless she has a lot of knowledge on a subject. I'm not saying I always agree with everything she says, because I don't (what 2 people agree on everything, anyway?), but I always listen, because she always has useful information. And I feel bad that people like the two of us get upset at her, when she's really, really, really trying to help, kwim?
I was upset because my words have gotten twisted here. For her to say I am angry and then to further patronize me .... well that made me angry, yes. Up until then I wasn't... I just disagreed firmly with one point* and felt it important to keep it out there. When you can search again, you can see from my previous posts that I am very helpful and supportive of my "sister Mamas," thanks.

I DID step away from this post, I did read many links and journals and I did not come to a different conclusion.

The whole "healing the gut thing," whether one believes it or not, does encourage a healthier way of life. I never refuted that. Nutrition, and understanding how substances we ingest play a role in our body chemistry is very important.

However, in my research based off this thread, I have been finding website after website where the authors are stating (paraphrased) "Doctors say allergies are IgE based and if it isn't IgE based that it isnt an allergy. Well, I say that if the body is reacting improperly to a substance, then that is an allergic reaction as well..." It goes on from there, time after time.

My reason for always pointing out the difference is simple. When someone who does NOT HAVE a medical allergy says that they do, and proceeds to "educate" others, they put the truly allergic child's life in danger. I can't tell you how many people I run into on a weekly basis IRT who have a story about someone who said they have allergies "but they could eat a little bit." *People who misuse the term and choose to define it based on their own experiences really do make it worse for those of us dealing with true allergies.

It doesn't mitigate the challenges and pain that come from the other disorders. It doesn't change the amazing results people like JaneS have experienced from their journeys. I acknowledge and celebrate those victories. But one size does not fit all. I should be able to stand up and state that without being called out on a personal basis.

This is a very nice way of saying it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wendy 1221
And I actually agree with most of what you say, I just don't think what you say is the only reason/cure, which is what it seems that you believe by your posts. Gut flora is not the end all be all for allergies.
post #43 of 216
Wolfmeis
post #44 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfmeis
I was upset because my words have gotten twisted here. For her to say I am angry and then to further patronize me .... well that made me angry, yes. Up until then I wasn't... I just disagreed firmly with one point* and felt it important to keep it out there. When you can search again, you can see from my previous posts that I am very helpful and supportive of my "sister Mamas," thanks.

I DID step away from this post, I did read many links and journals and I did not come to a different conclusion.

The whole "healing the gut thing," whether one believes it or not, does encourage a healthier way of life. I never refuted that. Nutrition, and understanding how substances we ingest play a role in our body chemistry is very important.

However, in my research based off this thread, I have been finding website after website where the authors are stating (paraphrased) "Doctors say allergies are IgE based and if it isn't IgE based that it isnt an allergy. Well, I say that if the body is reacting improperly to a substance, then that is an allergic reaction as well..." It goes on from there, time after time.

My reason for always pointing out the difference is simple. When someone who does NOT HAVE a medical allergy says that they do, and proceeds to "educate" others, they put the truly allergic child's life in danger. I can't tell you how many people I run into on a weekly basis IRT who have a story about someone who said they have allergies "but they could eat a little bit." *People who misuse the term and choose to define it based on their own experiences really do make it worse for those of us dealing with true allergies.

It doesn't mitigate the challenges and pain that come from the other disorders. It doesn't change the amazing results people like JaneS have experienced from their journeys. I acknowledge and celebrate those victories. But one size does not fit all. I should be able to stand up and state that without being called out on a personal basis.
:

Btw, many allergist are now starting to recognize IgG allergies, which usually manifest more in delayed/GI reactions. It's hard to find someone who does testing for them, but they're out there. Personally, I often refer to allergies as "life threatening," moderate, or mild. My milk allergy is mild-moderate, I get "seasonal allergy" type symptoms plus GI reactions. My egg allergy is potentially "life threatening" since I had trouble breathing last time I had something w/ egg in it (a pancake.) Most of Liam's allergies seem to fall into the life threatening category, I assume, since he will get hives when *I* consume them. He also had hives covering his entire face and it took 2 weeks to heal the one and only time he had direct contact w/ peanut butter (older brother kissed his cheek after eating a PB&J.) But his wheat allergy I guess I would call moderate since it "only" gives him horrible rashes and diarrhea and makes him too uncomfortable to sleep for days when he directly eats something with wheat (either fed to him by 2yo brother or from scrounging under the table. )
post #45 of 216
This is all a matter of semantics really. I don't think that anyone who *believes* in the "healing the gut thing" believes that people with *allergies* can eat "just a little bit." An allergy is an allergy imo. Some produce life threatening symptoms, some only minor annoyances.
post #46 of 216
I definitely agree with it being semantics.
post #47 of 216
Apparently one of my earlier posts never made it though. Based on an email I just got here are my thoughts more simply...

How Not to Have an Allergic Child:

-Breastmilk and nothing but BM for at least 6 months with the exception of vitamins/probiotics if necessary. Get banked BM or milk from another mama if a supplement is necessary.

-No antibiotics for you or them.

-Do not vax.
post #48 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
Apparently one of my earlier posts never made it though. Based on an email I just got here are my thoughts more simply...

How Not to Have an Allergic Child:

-Breastmilk and nothing but BM for at least 6 months with the exception of vitamins/probiotics if necessary. Get banked BM or milk from another mama if a supplement is necessary.

-No antibiotics for you or them.

-Do not vax.
:

I will add to that: Avoid completely anything you know or suspect you are allergic to. This has come up on my other allergy board and may play a role. I haven't seen any research on it, though.
post #49 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfmeis
My reason for always pointing out the difference is simple. When someone who does NOT HAVE a medical allergy says that they do, and proceeds to "educate" others, they put the truly allergic child's life in danger. I can't tell you how many people I run into on a weekly basis IRT who have a story about someone who said they have allergies "but they could eat a little bit." *People who misuse the term and choose to define it based on their own experiences really do make it worse for those of us dealing with true allergies.

It doesn't mitigate the challenges and pain that come from the other disorders. It doesn't change the amazing results people like JaneS have experienced from their journeys. I acknowledge and celebrate those victories. But one size does not fit all. I should be able to stand up and state that without being called out on a personal basis.
I'm rather confused and reread all my posts here to be sure.

I never said one should eat foods they are truly allergic to, where was that exactly?

I said that I believed this is not "luck of the draw" and there was substantial evidence to back that up in the medical literature. If there is currently an epidemic of truly allergic children that automatically rules out genetics as the cause.

Therefore if it's not inherited that means what we do effects the outcome. I still think one of the keys to this is a problem with the mama's digestive/immune system and not just the child's.

Perhaps it is BOTH not eating potentially allergic foods AS WELL as paying attention to building up the immune system? I was merely focusing on the latter. And stating my experiences regarding the same was merely to illustrate the point that it can be done (rebuilding immune system).
post #50 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plummeting
Hell, I don't even think taking only one type of probiotic that contains several different bacteria is enough.
Just wanted to ditto this. The new favorite in our house is an old Goodpapa rec: L. Reuteri. One of the originals passed on from mama to babe thru bf'ing. Also just tracked down only US source of isolated L. Plantarum capsules for those who cannot do sauerkraut for this.
post #51 of 216
Ah, forget it. Wolfmeis, if you read all those studies, and still believe that allergies are not affected by the bacteria living in the gut, well, I just don't know what to say. I'm completely shocked that anyone could see all the evidence before them, and still decide not to believe. The evidence is overwhelming. If you don't believe, it's because you choose not to believe, not because the evidence doesn't support it.

I'm sorry you are dealing with anaphylactic allergies, which are, to my knowledge, not curable with probiotics. But again, that is not what this thread is about.
post #52 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
Apparently one of my earlier posts never made it though. Based on an email I just got here are my thoughts more simply...

How Not to Have an Allergic Child:

-Breastmilk and nothing but BM for at least 6 months with the exception of vitamins/probiotics if necessary. Get banked BM or milk from another mama if a supplement is necessary.

-No antibiotics for you or them.

-Do not vax.
Hey, I'm pretty new here and new to the allergy scene (21 months so far....) but wanted to mention that this thread has been really helpful to me. You all have done SO MUCH research and are so willing to share it. THANK YOU!
I am obsessed with how not to have an allergic kid since we are ttc and I have some good ideas on what to do after reading this
.
BTW, I am not allergic, nor is my husband. I didn't avoid any food while pregnant and since I am GBS + I had antibiotics during labor. Kelsey was born naturally at a birth center and is unvaxed. She was exclusively breastfed until 9 months and at 21 months is still about 90% bf. I about lived on peanut butter while I was pregnant and the first 2 1/2 months I nursed her, but she is NOT allergic to peanuts. However she IS allergic to eggs, dairy, wheat, rice, beef, pork, potato, pears and tomatos. We did a stool analysis of both her and me and discovered that we both have significant flora imbalances. Mine appear to be "worse" than hers even though I don't have any symptoms. (I don't have ANY lactobacillius). Anyway I am taking probiotics now and our ND is looking or some that will appropriate for Kelsey. So I am totally on board with the gut flora imbalance being a big factor. I am assuming that I passed my imbalance to Kelsey in utero or at birth and I'm sure the antibiotics are also a contributing factor as is my diet (then more than now, but I still have so much to learn).
However, her IgE level is significantly elevated and her blood test was positive for her allergens and among her other symptoms she gets hives, so her allergies are "medical" even if the root "cause" is nutritional. I am hoping to heal our leaky guts and I hope that that will "cure" the alleries. It ought to help things anyway. It's my understanding that if food is digested properly and the guts don't leak then whole proteins will not be passed into the bloodstream and the immune system won't have anything to attack.

I am probably over-simplifying what goes on in there, but I feel like I'm doing something positive and even if it doesn't help the allergy situation it should improve our general health (which, oddly, seems to be excellent anyway) and that should help Kelsey's body deal with accidental exposures to her allergens.

I think all the information in this thread is useful and I'm sorry people are disagreeing, but that's how we learn I guess! Thank you all for sharing your information and your stories and I hope everyone takes the initative to do the research to find out what is relavant and useful for their OWN situation.
You guys are great!

Pauli
post #53 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauli
So I am totally on board with the gut flora imbalance being a big factor. I am assuming that I passed my imbalance to Kelsey in utero or at birth and I'm sure the antibiotics are also a contributing factor as is my diet
Hi Pauli,

Yes, it would be very interesting to study the abx and GBS issue, that is so common these days.

Kirkman has a very reliable dairy free acidophilus.
http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/...id316_120.html

Another dairy free acidophilus from GI Pro Health:
http://www.giprohealth.com/Merchant2...ode=probiotics

And they also make a yogurt strain is dairy free:
(if you wanted to try to make other cultures with alternative milks)
http://www.giprohealth.com/starter.html

At birth the babe's gut is completely sterile until the pass thru the birth canal where it picks up the flora of the mama. This initial colonization I've read in studies is thought to be very hard to change. (However, mainstream medicine is just beginning to learn about manipulating intestinal flora too.)

More info on a babe's virgin gut here:

Just One Bottle
http://www.massbfc.org/formula/bottle.html

Good luck and please keep us posted
post #54 of 216
Quote:
A Gut Reaction to Antibiotics

Is the explosive rise in asthma and allergies being seen especially in children partially related to antibiotic use? Epidemiologic studies have found strong connections between antibiotic treatment and the later development of asthma and allergies. Yet, until recently, no studies had looked at how the two are linked. Now researchers at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor have created a mouse model that offers clues to the mechanism behind the association.

Immunologist Gary Huffnagle and colleagues are the first to demonstrate in a mouse model that the disruption of beneficial intestinal bacteria by antibiotics allows yeast to take hold and flourish. They developed their mouse model specifically to study the relationship between antibiotic use and allergies. When mice inhale fungal spores known to trigger allergies in people, the allergic reaction is more potent in mice with an overgrowth of yeast in their guts.

In their studies, the Michigan researchers first treat mice for several days with the broad-spectrum antibiotic cefoperazone to destroy the gut flora. Then the mice are fed Candida albicans, a yeast that commonly lives in people. "This represents the clinical scenario of getting a yeast infection after taking antibiotics," says Huffnagle. Next, the mice are exposed nasally to spores of the mold Aspergillus fumigatus (a major indoor contaminant) and to egg white protein.

Results are showing that both allergens produce significant increases in inflammation-related white blood cells in the lungs of the mice, and they elevate blood levels of key markers of allergic reactions, including IgE, interleukin-5, and interleukin-13. Mice not treated with antibiotics show much milder reactions to the allergens. The team's latest report appears in the January 2005 issue of Infection and Immunity. Future work with the model will investigate the actions of other antibiotics (such as amoxicillin) and allergens (such as pollen and dust mites).

How do changes in gut flora influence respiratory allergies? The answer likely involves oral tolerance, Huffnagle theorizes. Upon ingestion of allergens, the oral mucosa generate regulatory T cells, which circulate to the respiratory tract, where they suppress allergic reactions. "We live in a dirty world, and we swallow mold spores, pollen, dust, and other allergens constantly," says Huffnagle. These oral allergens trigger immune responses that instruct the rest of the body to be more tolerant of allergens so allergic reactions don't occur. Moreover, other studies have indicated that mice lacking gut flora cannot generate oral tolerance. When the gut flora are restored, oral tolerance returns.

Huffnagle plans to evaluate over-the-counter probiotics--concentrated supplements of beneficial bacteria--to identify which, if any, work best for replenishing gut flora. "[Probiotics are a] relatively new concept, and there's not a lot of precedent for their use now," says infectious disease specialist Bruce Klein of the University of Wisconsin-Madison. If future studies show that probiotics do replace flora, Klein adds, physicians may be inclined to recommend their use. Eating yogurt with live cultures also remains a good way to replenish gut flora following a course of antibiotics.
http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-6/forum.html
Development of Allergic Airway Disease in Mice following Antibiotic Therapy and Fungal Microbiota Increase: Role of Host Genetics, Antigen, and Interleukin-13
http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/full/...&pmid=15618138

Role of Antibiotics and Fungal Microbiota in Driving Pulmonary Allergic Responses
http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/full/...&pmid=15321991
post #55 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
At birth the babe's gut is completely sterile until the pass thru the birth canal where it picks up the flora of the mama. This initial colonization I've read in studies is thought to be very hard to change. (However, mainstream medicine is just beginning to learn about manipulating intestinal flora too.)
Hey there, JaneS:
What do you know about the poor babes born to us poor mamas who had yeast infections at the birth? Woe are we -- I didn't know it and I swear we had thrush before day 2. My new theory is that the thrush knocked out all her good flora and that that's why she now has CMPA and possibly an allergy/sensitivity to soy : What do you think? I told my preggo cuz to get herself on some probiotics before she delivers . . . they test for everything else now .. . why not a yeast infection? :
Also, JaneS, do you know of a good completely dairy/soy free probiotic for a EBF 7 month old? I'm having a hard time finding any.
THANKS!
post #56 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
Apparently one of my earlier posts never made it though. Based on an email I just got here are my thoughts more simply...

How Not to Have an Allergic Child:

-Breastmilk and nothing but BM for at least 6 months with the exception of vitamins/probiotics if necessary. Get banked BM or milk from another mama if a supplement is necessary.

-No antibiotics for you or them.

-Do not vax.
I still have an allergic child. I believe there is a genetic predispositon. One of my kids can eat almost anything and be fine. The other can't. One is allergic to animal fur- the other can put her face on any animal without a reaction.

I believe in healing the gut- but I also believe some people have systems that need more "tweaking"- as in they are genetically more reactive to their evironments. After all- some people are introverts, some extraverts, some people are more sensitive to sound and light. Why wouldn't some people's immue systems also be more reactive to their food and environments?
post #57 of 216
post #58 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazig
Hey there, JaneS:
What do you know about the poor babes born to us poor mamas who had yeast infections at the birth? Woe are we -- I didn't know it and I swear we had thrush before day 2. My new theory is that the thrush knocked out all her good flora and that that's why she now has CMPA and possibly an allergy/sensitivity to soy : What do you think? I told my preggo cuz to get herself on some probiotics before she delivers . . . they test for everything else now .. . why not a yeast infection? :
Also, JaneS, do you know of a good completely dairy/soy free probiotic for a EBF 7 month old? I'm having a hard time finding any.
THANKS!
Having a yi at birth means yeast was part of the initial colonization of the babe's gut flora. What that means exactly can only be inferred. I think that probably meant that the gut was never sealed up, as breastmilk and gut flora is supposed to do in a newborn? (refer to Marsha Walker's article "Just One Bottle".)

It only stands to reason if the gut isn't sealed up as nature intended from birth, whether by yeast or formula feeding or vaxs or abx, problems will occur. And that is why the current studies I just posted help make this link to the development of allergies.

Culturelle has done many studies showing using their probiotic taken during pregnancy reduces chance of a child having atopy. (However the strain in Culturelle doesn't colonize the gut, you need to keep taking it to get benefits, perfect for a "patented product". Other probiotics probably offer same benefit if they are strong enough.)

EBF babes are bifidus dominent. Natren makes a dairy free Bifido Factor. Country Life Baby Maxi-Dophilus is dairy and soy free but that contains other strains, which I do not know if they would be helpful or not for EBF babes.
post #59 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaMonica
I still have an allergic child. I believe there is a genetic predispositon. One of my kids can eat almost anything and be fine. The other can't. One is allergic to animal fur- the other can put her face on any animal without a reaction.

I believe in healing the gut- but I also believe some people have systems that need more "tweaking"- as in they are genetically more reactive to their evironments. After all- some people are introverts, some extraverts, some people are more sensitive to sound and light. Why wouldn't some people's immue systems also be more reactive to their food and environments?
Perhaps there can be. But since there is an explosion of allergies right now in our society, it cannot be due to genetics only. There is no such thing as a genetic epidemic.
post #60 of 216
I am nak so I didn't have time to read the whole thread, but this is my experience:
I have 3 children. DS1 has no allergies. DS2 had allergies to cow's milk, egg, soy, wheat, rye, pork, potato and peanut. He has since outgrown all allergies except for egg and peanut and he can tolerate most milk products except milk itself. DS3 has no signs of food allergies so far.
The ONLY difference in how I cared for myself during pregnancy:
I took a strong antibiotic in my third trimester with DS2. I believe it destroyed his healthy gut flora and left him open to these allergies.
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