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A Woman took DS out of his carseat - Page 8

post #141 of 171
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post #142 of 171
I am so sorry, mama! What a scary thing to happen, but at least now you know better. If I saw a baby alone in a car I would start looking around and shouting "is this your baby?" to everyone around. Then I would stand by the car and wait, but I would only remove the baby as a last resort.
post #143 of 171
Quote:
I just cannot get over the fact that your eyes were off the car long enough for someone to look in, see your child, open the door, unbuckle your baby, and then walk into the restaurant without you even noticing. I know that you were only 6 feet from your car but if you aren't paying attention it doesn't matter if you're 2 feet away or 200
ITA.

6 feet is about how far I am away from my child sleeping in bed... I can hear her sigh and breathe. Maybe, if you have your back to the car, I can understand how you couldn't see... but how could you not hear the car door open and close?
post #144 of 171
I have a hard time believing anyone who says they would leave a child they believed was "soaking wet", "really hot",and "abandoned" in a car while they patiently wait for an ambulance/policeman. Have you ever had to wait on an ambulance, or watched Cops and see how long it takes them to get there? At best it will be 4-5 minutes. How awful would you feel waiting for an ambulance, leaving the child in the car, only to find out it later died of heatstroke? The time I waited for an ambulance with a girl having an asthma attack it took 10 minutes, and there was another ambulance 100 yards away A friend of mine while growing up had a barn that caught fire. She lived in the middle of nowhere and when they called hte fire department, they said they didn't need directions. It takes 15min. to get there from the fire station (w/out speeding and sirens). It took them 45 min.
post #145 of 171
Lisa, your area probably has a volunteer fire department. They have to tone out for firefighters, who need to leave what they are doing, drive to the station, pick up the apparatus, and then respond to the call.

Oh, the ambulance you saw didn't necessarily belong to the service that does 911 for your community.
post #146 of 171
I am so tired, and just sat here and read all 8 pages of this thread... so please forgive me if I don't express all my ideas very clearly.

OP, I'm so sorry this happened to you

To those of you who don't believe it could have happened, I can imagine how it would happen. I think you're all intentionally refusing to imagine the actual scene. Here's how I read it and imagine it: The baby's seat is in the passenger's side rear seat. The car is parked right at the curb, and the family is sitting at the nearest table. Since the blanket is in the baby's window, direct view of the baby and the back seat of the car is obscured from their perspective. People are passing by the other side of the car as they come and go from the restaurant, so someone passing in that space isn't unusual and doesn't command their attention. The woman passes on that opposite side of the car, sees the baby, and slips in through the rear car door on the opposite side. Remember, the back seat is obscured by the blanket. Unbuckles baby, stands back up and shuts the door, and walks away. The two noticeable actions - entering the car and exiting the car - each happen within two seconds and are very easy to miss.

2 min 51 seconds? First, that was the amount of time between calls, she does say that she spoke to her sister briefly as well. So, we can estimate it was at least three minutes. I imagine this all happened very close to the restaurant door, as most outdoor restaurant seating is located in close proximity to the restaurant. So, yes, I could imagine this happened within three minutes, give or take a few seconds. Heck, the woman could have entered the car as the OP was walking away from the car in the first place.

Personally, when I've similarly left my daughters sleeping in a car I actually opened the car door so I had full view of them, not just a glimpse through the car window (or worse, an obscured view with a blanket in the way). It's really easy to chronicle the OP's mistakes. But, you know what? I've made a hell of a lot of mistakes as a parent, and I am willing to bet that everyone else here has too. We've all just gotten lucky. If the OP was arrogant and refused to admit that her attention had wandered and that she'd done the wrong thing, perhaps I'd judge her more harshly. But, she's not. She is absolutely right - the other woman's attitude was horrendous, her action was extreme and uncalled for, and while the OP wasn't fully innocent, her treatment at the hands of the other woman was uncalled for.
post #147 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by tboroson
Since the blanket is in the baby's window, direct view of the baby and the back seat of the car is obscured from their perspective.
BINGO! As I'm sure the OP knows by now, this was a big mistake. She could see the *car*, but she couldn't see the *baby*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tboroson
the other woman's attitude was horrendous, her action was extreme and uncalled for, and while the OP wasn't fully innocent, her treatment at the hands of the other woman was uncalled for.
While I don't think the other womans actions (of taking the baby to, what she believe, was safety) were "extreme and uncalled for", I do agree that the treatment she gave the OP was extreme and uncalled for. There was no need for her to treat the OP like that, especially without knowing the full story.
post #148 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by tboroson
I am so tired, and just sat here and read all 8 pages of this thread... so please forgive me if I don't express all my ideas very clearly.

OP, I'm so sorry this happened to you

To those of you who don't believe it could have happened, I can imagine how it would happen. I think you're all intentionally refusing to imagine the actual scene. Here's how I read it and imagine it: The baby's seat is in the passenger's side rear seat. The car is parked right at the curb, and the family is sitting at the nearest table. Since the blanket is in the baby's window, direct view of the baby and the back seat of the car is obscured from their perspective. People are passing by the other side of the car as they come and go from the restaurant, so someone passing in that space isn't unusual and doesn't command their attention. The woman passes on that opposite side of the car, sees the baby, and slips in through the rear car door on the opposite side. Remember, the back seat is obscured by the blanket. Unbuckles baby, stands back up and shuts the door, and walks away. The two noticeable actions - entering the car and exiting the car - each happen within two seconds and are very easy to miss.

2 min 51 seconds? First, that was the amount of time between calls, she does say that she spoke to her sister briefly as well. So, we can estimate it was at least three minutes. I imagine this all happened very close to the restaurant door, as most outdoor restaurant seating is located in close proximity to the restaurant. So, yes, I could imagine this happened within three minutes, give or take a few seconds. Heck, the woman could have entered the car as the OP was walking away from the car in the first place.

Personally, when I've similarly left my daughters sleeping in a car I actually opened the car door so I had full view of them, not just a glimpse through the car window (or worse, an obscured view with a blanket in the way). It's really easy to chronicle the OP's mistakes. But, you know what? I've made a hell of a lot of mistakes as a parent, and I am willing to bet that everyone else here has too. We've all just gotten lucky. If the OP was arrogant and refused to admit that her attention had wandered and that she'd done the wrong thing, perhaps I'd judge her more harshly. But, she's not. She is absolutely right - the other woman's attitude was horrendous, her action was extreme and uncalled for, and while the OP wasn't fully innocent, her treatment at the hands of the other woman was uncalled for.
Nope still don't buy it. Don't buy that someone was just waiting there as the mom exited the car. She would have seen her. And in your scenario, the woman would have to get into the car to reach the child. Sit down next to him to unbuckle, which is very hard. Take him out etc....Three minutes, sorry no way!
post #149 of 171
Ok - I am a bit confused here.. I dont know what kind of society it is you have but where I live I think most women have left the kids in the car unattended for a short period of time. Ofcourse it isnt freaking hot here even in summer - and I have never heard of a baby dying in a car here - dogs yes - but never babies. I have left my two children alone in the car (both under 3) several times - when going shopping for 5 minutes - when going inside the bakers for bread, when my daughter has been sleeping to drop of my son at daycare and DH and I have done it when being on the road to sit a gasstation restaurant to eat - from a place where we could stand up and see that our kid/s was not crying or awake. I always lock the doors - because I have heard of thieves stealing cars then finding a baby in the backseat - but I would never worry about someone kidnapping my babies - especially not when the doors are locked. If a woman ever took one of my children out of MY car I would turn her over to the police for attempted kidnapping.
I do not feel the least bit guilty for leaving my kids in the car for shopping for 5 minutes. The car is my property and anyone breaking inthere is also breaking the law.
SO you are NOT a bad mother for leaving your kid in the car even for 5 minutes - but taking away a kid from someone elses car is BAD - especially without asking around first.

But ok - I admit to come from a country where we also leave the babies outside to sleep in the buggy. I have friends who live in houses with several appartment - and they leave their babies down in the yard in the buggy to sleep while they themselfes are in the appartment with the babymonitor on or an open window. And we are not talking a few bad parents here - we are talking this is what EVERYONE does - this is just how we do here. We leave the babies outside in the buggy while we go shopping. They sleep outside even in winter and that is just how it is. We never hear of kidnappings - very rarely it happens that someone attempts to steal a buggy and accidentally forget to notice that there is a child in it.. but what is this hysteria all about?

The problem here is not the mother if you ask me but the lady who steals away a kid that isnt hers. Nomatter her intentions..
post #150 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inca
Ok - I am a bit confused here.. I dont know what kind of society it is you have but where I live I think most women have left the kids in the car unattended for a short period of time. Ofcourse it isnt freaking hot here even in summer - and I have never heard of a baby dying in a car here - dogs yes - but never babies. I have left my two children alone in the car (both under 3) several times - when going shopping for 5 minutes - when going inside the bakers for bread, when my daughter has been sleeping to drop of my son at daycare and DH and I have done it when being on the road to sit a gasstation restaurant to eat - from a place where we could stand up and see that our kid/s was not crying or awake. I always lock the doors - because I have heard of thieves stealing cars then finding a baby in the backseat - but I would never worry about someone kidnapping my babies - especially not when the doors are locked. If a woman ever took one of my children out of MY car I would turn her over to the police for attempted kidnapping.
I do not feel the least bit guilty for leaving my kids in the car for shopping for 5 minutes. The car is my property and anyone breaking inthere is also breaking the law.
SO you are NOT a bad mother for leaving your kid in the car even for 5 minutes - but taking away a kid from someone elses car is BAD - especially without asking around first.

But ok - I admit to come from a country where we also leave the babies outside to sleep in the buggy. I have friends who live in houses with several appartment - and they leave their babies down in the yard in the buggy to sleep while they themselfes are in the appartment with the babymonitor on or an open window. And we are not talking a few bad parents here - we are talking this is what EVERYONE does - this is just how we do here. We leave the babies outside in the buggy while we go shopping. They sleep outside even in winter and that is just how it is. We never hear of kidnappings - very rarely it happens that someone attempts to steal a buggy and accidentally forget to notice that there is a child in it.. but what is this hysteria all about?

The problem here is not the mother if you ask me but the lady who steals away a kid that isnt hers. Nomatter her intentions..
Denmark is a verrrrry different culture when it comes to the treatment of babies and kids. Don't you have mega paid maternity leave as well? I am envious of your culture. I wished I lived in a society where one could leave the baby buggy outside without fear.
post #151 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inca
I have left my two children alone in the car (both under 3) several times...
This would be considered illegal in the US and you could be arrested. There have been several cases in my area of children being removed from the home and/or the parents charged with neglect.
post #152 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inca

The problem here is not the mother if you ask me but the lady who steals away a kid that isnt hers. Nomatter her intentions..
ITA.
post #153 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inca
Ok - I am a bit confused here.. I dont know what kind of society it is you have but where I live I think most women have left the kids in the car unattended for a short period of time. Ofcourse it isnt freaking hot here even in summer - and I have never heard of a baby dying in a car here - dogs yes - but never babies. I have left my two children alone in the car (both under 3) several times - when going shopping for 5 minutes - when going inside the bakers for bread, when my daughter has been sleeping to drop of my son at daycare and DH and I have done it when being on the road to sit a gasstation restaurant to eat - from a place where we could stand up and see that our kid/s was not crying or awake. I always lock the doors - because I have heard of thieves stealing cars then finding a baby in the backseat - but I would never worry about someone kidnapping my babies - especially not when the doors are locked. If a woman ever took one of my children out of MY car I would turn her over to the police for attempted kidnapping.
I do not feel the least bit guilty for leaving my kids in the car for shopping for 5 minutes. The car is my property and anyone breaking inthere is also breaking the law.
SO you are NOT a bad mother for leaving your kid in the car even for 5 minutes - but taking away a kid from someone elses car is BAD - especially without asking around first.

But ok - I admit to come from a country where we also leave the babies outside to sleep in the buggy. I have friends who live in houses with several appartment - and they leave their babies down in the yard in the buggy to sleep while they themselfes are in the appartment with the babymonitor on or an open window. And we are not talking a few bad parents here - we are talking this is what EVERYONE does - this is just how we do here. We leave the babies outside in the buggy while we go shopping. They sleep outside even in winter and that is just how it is. We never hear of kidnappings - very rarely it happens that someone attempts to steal a buggy and accidentally forget to notice that there is a child in it.. but what is this hysteria all about?

The problem here is not the mother if you ask me but the lady who steals away a kid that isnt hers. Nomatter her intentions..
Yes, but Denmark is markedly different than the US. We have the Amber Alert for a reason, because babies and children are kidnapped on a regular basis. Kids are snatched from their front yards. Babies here DO die in the heat because they were left alone in cars. Child neglect is a big problem and what the OP did could have easilly been considered neglect. Nobody can say for sure how long the baby was left there and if he was left long enough and the mother was so oblivious that someone was able to grab the baby and WALK BY HER with the baby in her arms w/o the mother or father noticing than she could be charged with neglect if someone wanted to persue it. In Denmark, I may be comfortable enough to leave a sleeping baby in a buggy outside while I was inside eating...maybe. Here, there isn't a chance in Hell that I'd ever even consider it.
post #154 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWine
Denmark is a verrrrry different culture

Yes and a very different country. The weather simply is not comparable. A top story on MSNBC yesterday was about children dying while left in hot cars.

A person who takes a child to whom no attention is being paid out of the car and into a cool restaurant and into the hands of a security guard has done NOTHING wrong.

It is Illegal in almost every state to leave a child unattended in a car. A child who is carried out of a car without the parent noticing would absolutely be considered "unattended"
post #155 of 171
Yes, I 3rd or 4th that Denmark is a completely different culture than the U.S. I grew up in a town started by immigrants from Holland. A teacher of mine was married from an immigrant from holland (he immigrated, not his grandparents or anything like that if that makes sense) and they took a trip back. Her husband insisted it was ok to leave the car unlocked, they saw numerous babies left outside, etc, etc. AFAIK, denmark has a pretty lax gov't. Said husband also recieved numerous speeding tickets because in Holland, you just don't get tickets unless you're driving at an absurd speed. He could hardly believe you get pulled over and ticketed for pretty much anything over 5mph.

I was just in Wal-Mart the other day. There was an infant in a carseat in a cart near the curb who looked to be around 2mo old. I didn't see a parent (yes, father's are liable too) around so I walked up to the baby with full intentions on calling the police, until I saw the mother sitting on the curb. She was hidden by the cart so I didn't see her at first. You're damn right I would have picked that baby up if she was crying, or looked to be in danger.

Quote:
Lisa, your area probably has a volunteer fire department. They have to tone out for firefighters, who need to leave what they are doing, drive to the station, pick up the apparatus, and then respond to the call.

Oh, the ambulance you saw didn't necessarily belong to the service that does 911 for your community.
You're probably right that the fire department was volunteer, but the firefighters also admitted they had gotten lost (said friend lives in the boonies) As for the ambulance scenario - it was at an outdoor event I was working for. The ambulance was there specifically for the concert. But that's not really the point anyways. The point was even in an emergency, it can take awhile for emergency personel to get there.
post #156 of 171
I know...I just thought you might like an explanation :

Inca, I'm sorry, but your experience in Denmark is pretty much irrelevant to the OP's scenario. You could be arrested here for what you described doing in Denmark. And in this country, a woman who rescues a child left in a car is generally lauded as a heroine. She certainly wouldn't be arrested as it is not considered a crime to save a child from a potentially deadly situation.
post #157 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inca
I have never heard of a baby dying in a car here...we never hear of kidnappings... but what is this hysteria all about?
If you never hear of babies dying in cars or being kidnapped where you live, can you explain to me how anything in your post is relavent to this thread?
post #158 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inca
Ok - I am a bit confused here.. I dont know what kind of society it is you have but where I live I think most women have left the kids in the car unattended for a short period of time. Ofcourse it isnt freaking hot here even in summer - and I have never heard of a baby dying in a car here - dogs yes - but never babies. I have left my two children alone in the car (both under 3) several times - when going shopping for 5 minutes - when going inside the bakers for bread, when my daughter has been sleeping to drop of my son at daycare and DH and I have done it when being on the road to sit a gasstation restaurant to eat - from a place where we could stand up and see that our kid/s was not crying or awake. I always lock the doors - because I have heard of thieves stealing cars then finding a baby in the backseat - but I would never worry about someone kidnapping my babies - especially not when the doors are locked. If a woman ever took one of my children out of MY car I would turn her over to the police for attempted kidnapping.
I do not feel the least bit guilty for leaving my kids in the car for shopping for 5 minutes. The car is my property and anyone breaking inthere is also breaking the law.
SO you are NOT a bad mother for leaving your kid in the car even for 5 minutes - but taking away a kid from someone elses car is BAD - especially without asking around first.

But ok - I admit to come from a country where we also leave the babies outside to sleep in the buggy. I have friends who live in houses with several appartment - and they leave their babies down in the yard in the buggy to sleep while they themselfes are in the appartment with the babymonitor on or an open window. And we are not talking a few bad parents here - we are talking this is what EVERYONE does - this is just how we do here. We leave the babies outside in the buggy while we go shopping. They sleep outside even in winter and that is just how it is. We never hear of kidnappings - very rarely it happens that someone attempts to steal a buggy and accidentally forget to notice that there is a child in it.. but what is this hysteria all about?

The problem here is not the mother if you ask me but the lady who steals away a kid that isnt hers. Nomatter her intentions..
I'm glad that you live in a society like this. I really am. Unfortunately, the US is not like this. Don't believe it's this serious? Read these.

"on a 75-degree day the temperature inside a Chevy Venture can reach higher than 120 degrees in just half an hour"


"temperatures can still rise to deadly elevations with the windows down."


6 year old boy kidnapped during a car theft, adults left for *just a minute* to go inside a gas station

Or how about a 3 year old is kidnapped when his dad put him in the car then went back inside the house to get his infant.

There are many many more news stories of baby/young children being left in cars and dying, suffering brain damage, or being kidnapped. Here, in the States, it is not a safe thing to do.
post #159 of 171
Another link to a site about preventing car-related deaths:
http://www.4rkidssake.org/
post #160 of 171
Cosleeping kills.
Homebirth is risky and dangerous.
Refusing to vaccinate is neglect.
Breastfeeding preschoolers is abuse.

These beliefs are also a part of American culture.

I think the OP knows she made a mistake. In the U.S., leaving a child unattended in a car is illegal and and considered dangerous. Therefore, a passerby will understandably assume that (a) a baby in a car has been forgotten about or that (b) the parents aren't taking proper care of the child. Most decent parents in the U.S. don't leave their children alone in the car, due to a combination of fear, legal concerns, and social concerns.

Notice I said most. A parent CAN make a reasonable decision to leave a child in the car.

I don't think what the OP did is automatically a bad thing. She felt in touch with the temperature of the car, and she and the rest of the family were nearby. Child abduction, for all the play that it gets in the media, is VERY rare.

I do think that given our culture and laws, it was a bad idea. And if I saw a baby in a car alone, I too would take him or her out and find help. Not from a security guard, because statistically security guards are more likely to have criminal backgrounds than the average person, but I'd probably call the police. I just couldn't take the chance that the baby had been forgotten or was being neglected.

Here on MDC, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that the OP was making an informed and conscious decision to do something unpopular.

How many of us never do the same?
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