"bad guys" and other violent play - Page 2

[Pigpen]

Originally posted by Hera

I think it is important to let them play this stuff out without giving it a bunch of negative energy. We can't shelter them from their dark feelings, nor should we if we want them to feel good about themselves.

That's the conclusion I have finally come to about this. It took me a while, and a lot of frustration for my older son. I think my hang up is related to two things. #1, fear of raising a violent child, #2, feeling like I look like a "bad" parent for allowing this type of play. I have really gotten over myself about this and it's been beneficial to all of us.

[beanma]

this is a really interesting thread. i don't have much to add from personal experience since dd is just 2 and very non-violent at this point, but i wanted to put a plug in for a book. i picked up "playful parenting" by lawrence cohen at the library and i really liked it although i only got halfway through before it was due. he's a psychologist and play therapist and columnist for a boston paper. he says that play is kids' primary means of working through things and communicating. he addresses the issue of violent play and suggests that parents not try to squelch it, but instead participate in it and introduce concepts of empathy and compassion that way. i remember in one example he gave he talked about kids playing "army" and mom or dad might be the medic that took care of the "wounded". he had a couple more scenarios, too, some involving mom or dad acting out very elaborate death scenes with lots of humor. unfortunately my brain has apparently deleted that and i can't recall too much more :, but y'all might wanna check it out if you get a chance.

hth

[Pigpen]

beanma, I was hoping someone would mention that book. I remember hearing about it but totally forgot the title, thanks!

[Openskyheart]

boysrus said: So, I do not see any problme with redirectiong them to another game and not allowing violent games. We never make a big deal about it, we just put it all very matter of factly.

If my redirection of gun play had resulted in a "no big deal" responses from my ds, then I'm sure I would have been satisfied with that and further gun play wouldn't have been an issue. The difference between your experience and my experience is that your dc didn't like that type of play, and my ds did. He really does understand the difference between pretend play and reality. When he was 4, I didn't understand that, and because he really needed to work strong feelings out with this kind of play, I violated his creative way of working these feelings out by trying to change him. When I stopped trying to change him and began honoring him instead, the "problem" stopped, because it wasn't a problem any more. He is not at all violent in his play now, at 8.

It's so nice when our values and our children's values match. The challenge comes when our values and our children's values differ. Can we, then, come to accept their choices, and love them as they are? Can we put away our beliefs and and fears long enough to really listen to them? I believe that if we can, we can come to new understandings, and deeper love and trust in our relationships with our children.

***We can't shelter them from their dark feelings, nor should we if we want them to feel good about themselves.***

I Love This Statement. So true.


Omegamama said she felt: #1, fear of raising a violent child, #2, feeling like I look like a "bad" parent for allowing this type of play. I have really gotten over myself about this and it's been beneficial to all of us.

Exactly! I had the same feelings, and am also glad I got over myself.

Peacefully (expecially today with the countdown happening and all - Ugh!)

Laura

[beanma]

omegamama, no problem on the book title. hope you enjoy it if you get a chance to check it out. maybe one of these days i'll get back to it again, too. i really did like it.

[imakebelieve]

We try to limit ds4 exposure to things, but he does love Star Wars. Dh and ds really share a love for these movies, but he won't be seeing the newest one. Dh feels like it has too much hatred and violence. I would of rather waited a while longer before he saw these movies, but we had a long discussion about it and I agreed that it would be okay on a limited basis. I worry more about ds seeing violence that doesnt' use weapons, fist fights etc... Star wars violence seems less real, no blood.
I would of liked him to see none, but parenting is for two people to decide, so...
The good news is that our non violence message is getting through. Here is a snip from a conversation my little guy who is just shy of 4 had yesterday in a dollar store with another child.

ds-I see you have a toy gun there. You really shouldn't play with those types of toys. Toy weapons are bad, even if it is just pretend. You should choose some better things like I did. I picked out some art supplies. Now that is a great choice.

This child was only TWO. So, he didn't say anything back, but he started blasting my son with his gun. Ben blasted back with his finger and then said "That's not nice, we don't play that way here!"

The mom was pretty POed, and then ds said to her, "you shouldn't let your child play with toys guns." Then she was really mad and stomped out of the store.

I was so proud!!!

[Dunn_Dad______]

It probably never occurred to her that there was anything wrong with toy weapons, gave her something to think about!

[Openskyheart]

Ya know - I think I misrepresented how we handled the violent play thing.

Our ds did not have toy weapons when he was little. And the only reason he has army men is because his uncle gave them to him for Christmas (our ds is 8 1/2), and since then, I think he's played with them 3 or 4 times - not a big draw for him. The one exception was/is squirt guns, which we call "squirters," cuz they're fun on a hot summer day!

We decided, though, to not stop him from creating guns out of sticks, pieces of toast, tofu chunks (!), etc. . We were uncomfortable being shot at, and told him so. It's a really important theme in our house that everyone involved has to enjoy the game that's being played - everyone.

I guess what I was saying is that, if there was some theme he was playing out involving good/evil concepts, I tried to really understand where he was coming from and let it play itself out. I could really see that he needed to work out "scary" themes in his own way. For several months, at 4 years old, he played police officer - and dh and I got put in jail as "bad guys" often.

Now his understanding of "bad guys" vs. "good guys" is far more nuanced. He has questions like "Is President Bush a bad guy for sending soldiers to war where they might be killed?" Excellent question. His conclusion? People do things that they think are right. Even if the result is negative to others, the person doing the negative thing thinks he's doing a good thing, or at the very least, the right thing.

I didn't explain that very well : Hope you get the idea!

Laura

[Pigpen]

I thought you explained yourself very well. I think it's funny what they'll make weapons out of (tofu chunks :LOL) My 4 year old has gotten so good at telling me exactly what he's thinking so I can understand why he's doing what he's doing (usually). They are complex little people...

p.s. My son just proudly showed me the bowtie he made out of tissue, stuck to his shirt by a booger.

[Theo's Mama]

Openskyheart, I loved the comments about when our values and our children's don't match. . . I guess this is part of what I was grappling with. . . I thought they would match a lot longer than three years. I thought he'd just immediately take on my values, not challenge them, not think for himself, at least not yet. Well, guess what? Silly me. Today at breakfast he told me, "I'm one of those boys!" "What boys?" "a Mean and Nasty Boy!"

If I'd been able to redirect the play, no big thing, but it obviously is really important to my son, for some reason. However, I will say that while all this has been going on, he has shown some really tremendous emotional/social growth in negotiating/problem solving with friends around toy sharing, what to play, etc., so I'd like to think that this major growth has come from all the grappling and learning we do. I always try to remember in my parenting when the hard times come that some great growth is going to come out of it, for all of us, me as a parent, him as a child.

No, we can't keep them from facing the dark side, and they have to deal with their fears and issues of power and how they can gain it/use it. I guess it makes me sad that they have to think about these things so early though. I guess you can't learn about peace without knowing about war, harmony without knowing about conflict.

I guess it makes me sad we all have to think so much about good and evil these days, and I sure wish someone had told little George that "we don't play with guns."

Peace,

Paige

[levar]

Taylor is almost 3 but already we are dealing with this too.

Right now Taylor's favorite "game" is to dress up as a Knight in Shining Armor [paper bag with foil taped on] with sword [fabric sister made] and protect The King Of Burger [sister with burger king crown and blanket] and Beautiful Princess [me with tiara and white bathrobe] from The Dragon [daddy with bird claw gloves, or one of the cats that is a good sport about being chased etc]. Usually this revolves around rides on The Mighty Steed [our dog] and drinking from The Blessed Chalice [water in sippy cup] while hanging out in The Castle [IKEA kids tent in family room].

It is fun, and because his playmates are most always adults, we are able to keep it very calm and even so to speak. Rules like no hitting, scratching, biting, or we imediately stop play etc. And we take turns being chased, no real bad guy all the time per se. Taylor's cousin Kate has joined us a couple times [she is 3 too] and LOVES it because she gets to be the princess and taylor the knight and they chase the rest of us [kissy-monster Never tickle-monster in our family FYI] all over the house and back yard.

I think all this activity and imagination is good? I am glad that we have the chance with both kids to supervise their play and play WITH them too. Even at 3 Taylor and Kate are getting VERY responsive in larger groups to other kids feelings... when someone "scares" them or gets "in their face" etc they know to say "please stop..." and even better for Taylor he is respectful of when other children tell him "no" or "stop" too which we like.

What will he end up like as an adult? No clue. We can only hope for the best.

Oh. One thing that has REALLY made a change this last few weeks, we got a book "Custard the Dragon and the Wicked Knight" which is fun because all the other stories we've seen have dragons as bad and knights as good but this book reverses that and the Dragon is the hero. So now when we say switch and we chase you it goes well. At least even if it is "us vs them" he sees that there are two sides?

[levar]

Originally posted by imakebelieve
The mom was pretty POed, and then ds said to her, "you shouldn't let your child play with toys guns." Then she was really mad and stomped out of the store.

I was so proud!!!

Oh My!! Just wanted to pipe in with GOOD FOR YOUR BOY!! Wow. That is great!!

[tlc4tots]

My 5 year old has also taken an interest in good guys and bad guys. I always tell him that bad guys are just people who sometimes make bad choices. We have rules about gun/sword play like the game has to change if someone doesn't feel safe, no pointing at someone who isn't playing. I think if you try to hard to stop the play that it will become a power struggle which may lead to sneaky behavior. I'd rather have it out in the open and talk about what I believe.

[Theo's Mama]

Good point about having it out in the open. I am learning that this is just a time for teaching/exploring what I believe with him.

[Ackermama]

Great thread!
I think it is so important right now that we, as parents, don't project our frustrations with the world at large at our children when they are just doing what children do. It is so easy for me to see my son's violent play and good versus evil oversimplifications and think of George Bush or a terrorist organization, but I really do believe that he's just healthily grappling with a big, big world.

I have been through the whole thing I read over and over in this thread. Ultimately, I concluded that this is normal. Our perfectly-raised boys (generally) go through this. I got a lot of support from this board while I was grappling with this, but one thing really stuck out. You don't see twenty replies about well-brought-up APed boys who suddenly are obsessed with weapons for no reason. This is a normal phase. There wouldn't be so many of us so worried about this if it were a freak of nature kind of thing. There must be some important task in it for them.

I also realized that I needed to support him in it. If he were equally fascinated with the violin or with woodworking, I would be acting so differently. Rather than risk communicating to him that I truly don't care about his interests (or am antagonistic, even), I decided to channel his interests in directions I could tolerate. This meant, for us, knighthood. I ushered in an era of knight training, even allowed swords, which I never thought I would do. For me, swords don't cause many problems in schools or late at night in Circle K's, also there is an art associated with it, so I sucked it up. One great bonus: We've learned A LOT about chivalry and that has had a really positive effect on his behavior.

When I comprmoised on the weapons in the house thing, it did create a testing phase. I think he figured if I'd waver on one, I might give in on all. I finally explained to him, honestly, why gun play didn't work for me. I think someone else mentioned this, but everyone involved (even if they are only watching), must accept the play for it to be fun. I told him exactly why gun play wasn't fun for me and he got it.

The best advice I can give is to find the support you need as a peace-loving mother to support your son in the way he needs you to. Great strength comes from moms with older sons, who, lo and behold, turn out great. Also necessary: another mom to mourn with. This really is hard (or at least, has been for me). But it is so universal, that it can't be something done "wrong." It must serve some purpose...

[michelle1k]

There is a wonderful book entitled "Who is calling the shots: how to respond effectively to childrens' fascination with war play and war toys" by Nancy Carlsson-Paige and Diane E. Levin.

It talks about the need for children (mostly boys) to act out the polarity they encounter as humans on this planet in the "good" vs "bad" camp. How important it is for the parent to honor this need, yet remain firm about setting safe boundaries for this to occur that is in keeping with the family's morals and belief-systems and the child's own integrity.

While I think that this sort of play is healthy (within aforementioned boundaries) I don't think age 3 is too young to explain one very important thing to children (and something I do from time to time): that there are no "good" or "bad" people. Simply people who make "good" or "bad" choices; "good" or "bad" behavior. An important difference, but one that honors the Light within us all.

Thoughtfully offered,
Michelle in NY - mom to ds (4) and dd (9 months)

[Pigpen]

Ackermama, so true...I appreciated in your post how you mentioned that it would help if we had someone to commiserate with! The mom I spend the most time with is my SIL. She is extremely judgemental about my son and "his violent tendencies". He's a sweet kid, like all the others mentioned here. He plays very gently, so I have to remind myself all the time that this is a real need for him right now. Her son ONLY plays with Thomas the tank engine. That is his only interest and has been for a long time (going on a year). She loves to make comparisons about that. I'm usually defending my children and thinking, "I'd rather they act out this type of play and have more than one interest" (I get judgemental too, vicious circle ). In a sort of related topic, my older son has caught me crying a couple times in relation to the war. He doesn't watch TV, so he doesn't see any kind of war footage. I have debated talking about it with him, I want to protect him from it. But he asks why I'm crying so I have started talking to him about it. Not all the gory details, but he's got a lot of questions about why? He knows there is a war going on, meaning people using guns and other weapons to hurt and kill each other. He knows that there are children and moms and dads who are dying because of it. But, at 4, death doesn't quite mean death, he knows death is bad, makes people sad, but doesn't know the finality of it. How are you other moms handling this?

[Pigpen]

Michelle1k, I think we cross-posted...I completely agree with the good/bad labels. Also, the "bad guys" portrayed in the media, usually have a certain "look". If we see that, I will usually engage him in a conversation about it. Just because someone looks "mean" doesn't mean they are. On the other hand, many people who look "nice" may not be. They totally get it, you're right 3 years old is not to young. They are much smarter than we often give them credit for.
p.s., I'm glad this thread is thriving, I've learned something from everyone who's posted here!

[tlc4tots]

This information was written by my former co-teachers. There was more, but I thought it might be too long for online. Hope this helps.


Keep young children away from media images of Violence, War and suffering.
Children simply do not have the experience to process some of the unthinkable graphic images that the News will portray. The emotional impact of such pictures are long lasting and fear inducing. Paradoxically, the “play by play” approach of modern media has also de-sensitized us to the suffering induced by these distant events- it seems unreal to even those of us who have endured violence first hand. Get your news away from children’s eyes and ears. Be aware of your conversations in front of children, including phone conversations where they hear only one side. They DO pay attention, even when you think they aren’t.

Be the “open door” that children need to field the questions they will inevitably have.
Children, even when kept from the media bombardment of news, will sense the feelings of those who care for them. Pretending that everything is normal when you are fearful, angry, sad, depressed, worried or upset only confuses children. They will inevitably hear bits of the war from others. If no answers are forthcoming from the adults, children make up their own-, which can be even more frightening than what is truly occurring. Acknowledge your own feelings and opinions. Allow them theirs by actively listening, asking questions for clarification, and answering questions based on the child’s age, experience and needs.

Let the Children “play” it out.
Children use play as therapy, fear-facing and gaining control. As we adults turn to each other to talk and debate, or we take action by protesting, signing petitions, sending donations, signing up for the military, making emergency supply kits- children take action by playing out the themes in the society that surrounds them. Don’t change family values or boundaries- but within those allow children to play out what they are feeling or thinking. This can include drawing and painting, dictating stories, playing with friends or action figures, or even building and destroying what was built.

Convey love and reassurance as best you can.
Children need to know they are loved, and that someone will always care for them. They need to feel routines and everyday life are as undisrupted as possible. They are trying to make meaning of what is so difficult to understand. If you are a family that takes action, explain to children your actions. If you are a family that needs to use home as a “denial” refuge from the outside world, explain that the war stops at the door. If you have spiritual beliefs use these to outline your behaviors and yearnings to your children.

[Ackermama]

re: war and other world events

If you or anyone else your child knows is upset about the war or other current events, I do agree that it is important to talk (fairly) openly with your child. I can remember being sheltered from things as a child myself and, often, what I made up in my head was much worse than what was actually going on. Example: My father was in the midst of several affairs and a drinking problem; I knew something was going on that my parents were not letting me in on, but I had somehow convinced myself that they had decided to give me away. I had ZERO evidence for this and, in fact, much evidence to the contrary, but it didn't stop me from being scared #$@&less through this period.

Everyone has a different threshold for what they are/not willing to withold/reveal with their children and I think that is too individual to really even discuss in this forum. It depends on so much more than age, etc. Whatever you choose to let your children in on, I take some really great advice from good old Mister Rogers... He said (post 9/11, I think, but it may have been an echo of something said previously) that no matter what you are seeing in real life, watching in tv, hearing about on the radio, or reading about in print, there's always a way to refocus it for children. No matter what horrible image is there, it is surrounded by something hopefull... car accident: ambulance/firemen, crime: police, etc. Every bad thing that happens brings out the best in someone somewhere and a hero is born. This sounds kind of cheesy, but I have found since then that it is true. My son saw 9/11 happen live, before anyone knew anything more than that (another) bomb had gone off on a couple floors of one building. I was unable to conceal my response as the second tower was hit and the reality of what had happened came into focus. This was totally inappropriate for his age, but that's what happened. As a result, he was honestly well-shaken, but came through with a zeal for firemen that bordered on obsession and lasted nearly two full years. We knew the guys at fire station #1 on a first-name basis and have a dress-up box to match. It worked really well for him. Even now, there are good people and things going on in every tv image, you just have to help your child look. Just a thought to throw out there and incorporate when in works...