Can "good" parents raise a "bad" kid? - Page 2

[mamawanabe]

yes. Our children are their own people and have their own temperments and dispositions and personalities. Being a good, loving AP parents doesn't necessarily result in good, loving kids. But it is the kind of parent I want to be and the kind fo family I want to have. I will love my kids with all my heart even if they grow up to become "bad" people (selfish, mean to others, etc).

[cumulus]

In The Nuture Assumption, the author argues against Nurture and cites tons of research which points to influences besides parenting that appear to have major influences on children; like twins separated and raised in different countries seem very much the same when they grow up.
One of the author's main arguments and the larger share of the research she cites, however, points to the influence of peers; like parents of other cultures raising children in this culture raise Americans who hardly speak their parent's language. We do raise children within a cultural medium with millions of people surrounding the parents influencing them and their children. The media's control of children and their parents is effected in part through peers.
The author, I think wisely, concludes that parenting is even tougher than you think. You cannot limit your efforts to those directly between you and the child. To do so is to ignore major influences, probably larger than your own, on the child. Parenting must be a social effort, a path of activism, a community and a civic endeavour.

[vamp127]

I think so, yes. Just like "bad" parents can raise wonderful kids. You see this with families with multiple kids. Some turn out good, some turn out bad. Whether they make bad choices or not is indirectly related to how good their parents are.

It is just like those of us who were spanked as children. Some remember how it made us feel and are determined to never do that to our own children. Others remember it and are unphased, continuing the cycle.

[cinnamonamon]

Originally Posted by dolphinkisser

...but we need to stop making simple assumptions lest it comes back to bite us in the butt.

I think that's the biggest thing -- many factors come into play in every scenerio...

WRT Boongirl's post, I would submit that "nurture" is likely to show itself early, and nature a bit later as children grow into teens & adults & "find themselves;" deciding what parts of thier upbringing to cling to, to some extent. (Again a simple premise that has MANY variables).

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by cinnamonamon

WRT Boongirl's post, I would submit that "nurture" is likely to show itself early, and nature a bit later as children grow into teens & adults & "find themselves;" deciding what parts of thier upbringing to cling to, to some extent. (Again a simple premise that has MANY variables).

There is absolutely a huge difference between elementary age kids and teenagers, in terms of everything, including upbringing. That is the reason I don't teach past 5th grade! And, please keep in mind that I was very specifically citing my own experience and not at all generalizing to the public at large.

[CYL]

My parent (my mother, we've barely seen our father since he chose his girlfriend over us) was mediocre at best thought she did try, and my bother (sp intentional) and I turned out wildly different.

I am studying for my masters degree, he was recently released from prison after serving a sentance for aggravated assult with a weapon (a broken bottle).

We both have a lot of problems, but the difference is how we deal with them. Ironically, it was my brother who got the majority fo the attention, while I spent 13 years in a boarding school getting an education.

I honestly think that nature is more important than nurture in terms of a persons personality, otherwise I'd be in serious trouble right now.

[shannon0218]

My oldest godson was a bad kid raised by good parents. His younger brother has always been "the good one" although NOBODY ever said that. My best friend is the mother I model myself after. Doug has been arrested, done drugs, spent a few days in jail, dropped out of school in spite of an off the chart IQ, etc.
Here's the one thing that I think makes the big difference though, Doug is 24 now and has turned it around. He finished high school and is currently in college to become a paramedic, he is dating this girl that we all just LOVE. He's held down a job,etc.
I've always been VERY close to Dougie and he and I had a big talk one night after I met his girlfriend and he told me one day it hit him how badly he'd screwed up BUT that we all still loved him and he was astonished. He apoligized to me for all the things he'd done to me personally (like stealing and cracking up my truck) and told me he planned to make it up to me. I know he had a similar conversation with his mom a while before.

I think the difference here is that we all (but mainly his mom) has always made it known that while we may not like him at the moment, we will always love him and he had something to go back to. I think a lot of kids by the time they grow up and figure out what they're doing wrong, they have nothing to fall back on anymore because they've burned their bridges.

[Lucky Charm]

I absolutely believe that good parents can raise "bad" kids.

[boongirl]

So, for all of you who believe good parents can raise bad kids, why does this happen? There is a good argument for the reverse. When bad parents raise a child who turns out good, one can argue that the moral compass in the child centered itself where it should be on its own or due to the influence of others around the child. So, the child grows up to be a good citizen in spite of the negative effects of bad parenting. With bad kids, why doesn't good parenting influence them to the extent that it is the dominant influence? Why does the child grow up to be "bad" despite the parents best efforts? I can think of different scenarios:

1. Brain chemistry - the child may have an undiagnosed mental disorder that causes them to be morally or pathologically bad. But, shouldn't the parents be aware enough to notice this? I have taught children who have parents who are so busy they are clueless as to the mental difficulties their children are experiencing and they have so strong an ego that they cannot see beyond themselves to admit that their child has a problem. And, I am not referring to ADHD. I am thinking of psychosis or anxiety disorder or obsessive-compulsive disorder.

2. Bad influences - the child wants to belong to a group of friends who are partaking in activities that are getting them into trouble at school and possibily in the community. This is perhaps the hardest for parents to handle because of the importance of peers in the child's life. However, Gordon Neufeld argues in his book, Hold on to your kids, that parents can prevent this scenario and help the child successfully remove and recover from it through attachment parenting. So, if good parents are letting this happen, perhaps they are not truly trying everything they can to help their child.

3. Bad parenting - there are plenty of parents out there who claim they are good parents, see themselves as good parents, act like good parents, but really are doing things that are damaging to their children. Think of all the parenting practices that MDC mamas usually abhor, like cio, which are used by parents who see themselves as good and their activities as nurturing.

These are three examples of parents who might think of themselves as good but really are not doing the best for their children. They are at fault, partly or in whole, for their children's badness.

So, what are examples of truly good parents raising bad kids? I am curious.

[Nora'sMama]

Hmm. The definition of "good parents", to me, = "parents who are sensitive to the needs of their individual child and who have a strong relationship with that child as he/she develops." There are all kinds of genetic tendencies that kids can be born with...proclivity to mental illness, etc. It's not the parents' fault if their child has "issues". BUT it is their "fault" if they have the resources available to mitigate those issues to the greatest extent possible, and they don't choose to make use of those resources. Even if otherwise they are "great parents". Does that make sense at all? I think some parents would be great parents to certain types of kids but having a child with serious challenges is more than they can handle and they kind of zone out and lose their sensitivity.

I think that if a parent is a sensitive, caring presence in a child's life AND has the resources to provide appropriate help to the extent needed when problems large and small arise (this is a big if - not everyone does and that's not their fault) AND the child still turns out to be a violent criminal or something...well, that would be a case of "good" parents raising a "bad" child. But I doubt that happens very often. And the world is more nuanced than that. A young adult who seems very troubled and who drops out of school, dabbles in the drug culture and perhaps has skirmishes with the law may be a 30-year-old with a good job who is a caring parent themselves and an active, positive contributor to their community. You just never know. What looks like a "bad kid" might be a kid who is intense, deep, independent, needs to work through a lot of issues on their own before they can reconnect with the tools that their "great parents" gave them.

[hhurd]

Originally Posted by dolphinkisser

Yes..so much of it is temperament. It is easy to blame a difficult child on bad parenting but that is unfair and self-righteous.

That's what I was going to say but dolphinkisser beat me to it.

[boongirl]

Anybody watch Oprah today? She had Rabbi Schamule. (I know I am getting his name wrong - the Rabbi from tv, the one who visits people's homes and helps families improve their attitudes, etc.) He said something interesting that pertains to this discussion. He said there are bad kids who were raised by potentially good parents who just did not have a way of connecting to their children. But, that in and of itself makes the bad parents. They did not find a way to connect to their child and then they just gave up hope.

[mamawanabe]

I actually don't think the desire to believe that good parents can't raise bad kids is a bad impulse. It isn't so much about self-rightousness as it is about people needing to believe it couldn't happen to them (like asking if someone smokes when you hear they died of a heat attack at 40).

Nonetheless, innate temperment is real. Good, wonderful, responsive and sensitive parents can indeed raise a child who turns out selfish and self-centered. But they will still love their child, and they probably don't need people deciding, out of hand, that they gave up on their kid or that they didn't connect with their kid.

Likewisem if my kids turn out to be wonderful, empathetic people, I am not going to take credit for that; I am not going to to say it is due to my parenting. My kids will be their own people, and I am not going to trace how they turn out back to my mothering skills (how self-centered would that be!)

[Brigianna]

Yes, I absolutely think that good parents can raise a bad kid, but I don't think it has much to do with genetics or innate temperament. People make their own choices, and they are every bit as capable of choosing evil as they are of choosing good. It is, I don't doubt, *easier* to choose good if you've been raised being exposed to the good side of humanity and taught morality from your parents or other people, but just because you know right from wrong is no guarantee that you will choose right. And I don't parent my kids the way that I do so that they'll turn out better, but because it's *my* moral obligation to treat all people with respect and decency.

Honestly, I do think that the constant search for an explanation for immoral behavior (bad parenting, bad innate temperament, mental illness, whatever) is part of mainstream society's unwillingness to acknowledge the human capacity for evil--that sometimes people with no "reason" will choose to do bad things. But perhaps that's a separate topic.

[MOM2ANSLEY]

Yes....My grandparents raised their 4 kids and then me...We are all SOOOOO different, Some very successful, in life, love, money, and some not... in all the same areas and some of us are middle of the road....Same home, same discipline, and same values .....5 totally different people......even as kids...So YES YES YES