Question from a member who only lurks on this forum - Page 2

[Islay]

Originally Posted by Houdini

Just curious what uses the foreskin has. Are my boys with a loose circ's seem more sensitive, so are they going have more feeling than thier brother? I have been told that the adhesions are a normal reaction of the penis trying to heal itself so there was on reason to have re-circ'd my middle son. The urologist; however, told me that I had to retract my boys to avoid the adhesions and the adhesions would create infections. Just rambling trying to organize the mess in my head.

Hello and welcome!

Since you have lurked here and read several threads, you may have already seen the following. But I thought I'd copy and paste a couple of items I used in a thread discussing the foreskin and its uses (your first question above).

------------------------------------------------

The Paramount Benefit of a Foreskin

We all know and acknowledge the protective function of the foreskin. During a boy's early years it serves as an excellent barrier against infection. At muturity it keeps the glans soft, moist and exquisitely sensitive.

But these benefits are the precursor to the paramount part the foreskin plays during the sexual act itself. It is perhaps the one function that surpasses any other, yet is rarely presented as such when discussing RIC. I cannot do better than copy here a section from an excellent article about the foreskin by Paul Fliess...

* Coverage During Erection: As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely, smoothly, and pleasurably over the shaft and glans.
* Self-Stimulating Sexual Functions: The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft. The foreskin can normally be slipped all the way, or almost all the way, back to the base of the penis, and also slipped forward beyond the glans. This wide range of motion is the mechanism by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated.
* Sexual Functions in Intercourse: One of the foreskin's functions is to facilitate smooth, gentle movement between the mucosal surfaces of the two partners during intercourse. The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating, moveable skin. The female is thus stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing.
* The foreskin fosters intimacy between the two partners by enveloping the glans and maintaining it as an internal organ. The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix - a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.

I can attest to every word of this - and its opposite effect following circumcision. The foreskin is part of a perfect whole. It was designed to offer the ultimate in sexual pleasure.

And this beautifully written, personal testament from an American woman who speaks from a purely female perspective...

"Now I look at the cut penis and see it as something disfigured, injured: I see what I thought was normal before for what it really is. I see the cracked and pitted skin of the glans, where my partner's is smooth and silken to the touch. I see the strange rings of discolouration from scarring and unnatural exposure to the elements, where my partner's is gracefully coloured, culminating in a glans that looks flush and rosy like a baby's soft cheek.

I love being sexual with an intact penis. I love the different options it affords in the way of play... it's like an entire new world to explore and enjoy to our heart's content. I love the way it moves in my mouth during oral sex, the way I can pull it up over the glans and back down with my lips.

Cut penises do not afford the same variety of sensations, teasing tricks, or pleasurable movement.

I love the fluid feel of the foreskin gliding during intercourse, the way it eases penetration and makes lube a totally unnecessary substance.

I love the way his glans is softer and more gentle. At first, I thought he just wasn't getting fully erect and felt insecure... and then I read more and learned that the protected, sheathed glans is really just supposed to be softer and less rigid than the scarred and unnaturally roughened cut penis.

And then I realized how much better it felt: in my cut partners, the glans felt too hard, like it was ramming into my vagina. The intact glans feels like it gracefully melds with my internal shape, complementing it instead of assaulting it.

More than anything, I love the difference in responses between him and my other, cut partners. All I have to do is gently touch my tongue to his frenulum, and that evokes a huge shiver of pleasure, or lightly hook my finger under the foreskin to produce a powerful moan.

To me, sexual intimacy with this intact man has been a more sensitive, intense, intricate experience than with any of my uncut partners. They were all very skilled in bed... but the difference in sensation that they required is very noticeable. They needed more aggressive oral or manual stimulation to near or reach orgasm. I felt like a jackhammer.

With this partner, the slowest, most gentle strokes can produce incredible pleasure, since the natural nerve endings of the foreskin provide its own intense stimulation. I find it to be a beautiful experience, just watching and admiring how the foreskin acts for his pleasure.

And I realized more than anything that that piece of skin is his birthright. The pleasure that he receives from his foreskin belongs to him as much as his sense of taste and touch... and nobody, no doctor or parent in the world has the right to take that from him, or from any other male, unnecessarily."


I think it's very likely that your two boys with loose circs are feeling more sensitivity than their brother, which is why they try so hard to pull the skin down over their glans'. It also occurs to me that perhaps this action is instinctive. Unwittingly they may be physically expressing nature's automatic defence against the trauma of losing their foreskins. (With no protection, their glans' will inexorably loose sensitivity over the years as nature endevours to protect it with a layer of hardening tissue. The glans is supposed to be an internal organ, exposed only in the act of sex.)

I would strongly suggest you do not retract them and tear the adhesions anymore. Let nature take its course... their penises have a lot of growing to do.

Please stick with us and ask as many questions as you like. You will always get honest and friendly replies.

Christopher

[Islay]

[QUOTE=nd_deadhead]I admire your courage - and your willingness to open your mind and your heart to an option (leaving baby boys alone) that was not only completely foreign to you, but something your family is dead set against.QUOTE]



YES!

Christopher

[Quirky]

Is it just me, or has anyone else ever read this line from Fleiss

The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix - a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.

and gone HUH? The cervix doesn't really have any pleasure nerve endings as far as I'm aware (yes, you may feel it a LOT during birth but other than that it's not all that sensitive, KWIM?). In fact, it's rather annoying and squicky to me if my cervix gets contact during sex.

Stay away from my internal organ!

[Houdini]

I am not even sure what questions I have. I have seen the information and I know the reasons for not circ'ing. It even seems I am falling of the fence and becoming an advocate, but I still am having trouble getting behind the idea that circ=abuse. I think that some people who do know the facts behind why a child should remain intact, but still feel for whatever reason that they should circ. It isn't misinformation at this point, just the parental decision to circ or not. Why do I get a say in this parent's decision for their child? I also understand that the decision should be left to the child b/c it is a permanent change. The same could be said for my decision to put my son through surgery to further fix his nose and lip shape (he was born with cleft lip). I know the analogy isn't the same, but this is where my thoughts are going. I am just trying to be honest in my hesitation.

[eightyferrettoes]

I wouldn't consider it an acceptable parental decision to decide to have a daughter's labia excised at birth, and feel similarly toward a male child's foreskin.

A cleft lip is an anomaly; something that will negatively affect a child's ability to nurse, etc. And not every child is born with a cleft lip.

Foreskin isn't a birth defect, and that's the bottom line.

[Houdini]

Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes

I wouldn't consider it an acceptable parental decision to decide to have a daughter's labia excised at birth, and feel similarly toward a male child's foreskin.

A cleft lip is an anomaly; something that will negatively affect a child's ability to nurse, etc. And not every child is born with a cleft lip.

Foreskin isn't a birth defect, and that's the bottom line.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I was refering to the surgery at four he had which was purely cosmetic. Don't some people think of circ'ing as a cosmetic procedure.

I wasn't trying to say foreskin was a birth defect. I knew the analogy wasn't a good one, but it was the best I could come up with.

I am really trying to make everything in my brain come together and make sense. I am not trying to start a debate or anything like that. I just have nagging thoughts I am trying to find answers to.

[Lula's Mom]

Nobody thinks you're trying to start anything! I think we are all thrilled you're here with this open, questioning attitude. Keep the thoughts coming.

[secretresistance]

Originally Posted by Houdini

I am not even sure what questions I have. I have seen the information and I know the reasons for not circ'ing. It even seems I am falling of the fence and becoming an advocate, but I still am having trouble getting behind the idea that circ=abuse. I think that some people who do know the facts behind why a child should remain intact, but still feel for whatever reason that they should circ. It isn't misinformation at this point, just the parental decision to circ or not. Why do I get a say in this parent's decision for their child? I also understand that the decision should be left to the child b/c it is a permanent change. The same could be said for my decision to put my son through surgery to further fix his nose and lip shape (he was born with cleft lip). I know the analogy isn't the same, but this is where my thoughts are going. I am just trying to be honest in my hesitation.

I know that for me, I didn't view circumcision as a potentially abusive act until quite a way into my research.

I remember there was a poll here asking whether or not circumcision should be illegal. My first instinct was along the lines of "Of course not, you can't take control over parents like that!" As I read other responses to that poll, my point of view shifted dramatically, and I do believe this procedure should be as illegal as female circumcision is.

I'm wondering if maybe this is an issue where something specific and unique has to click within a person. It's very difficult sometimes to look through our cultural conditioning in order to see just what an appalling thing routine infant circumcision is.

As for the part I bolded, I believe that if a parent is truly well informed about the realities of circumcision, there can be no reason good enough to go ahead with it. ETA: Although my opinion on that is admittedly skewed as I have never been under intense circ-related pressure from a husband/partner, nor do I have religious beliefs strong enough to influence me to go against my beliefs about circ.

[calngavinsmom]

Originally Posted by Houdini

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I was refering to the surgery at four he had which was purely cosmetic. Don't some people think of circ'ing as a cosmetic procedure.

I wasn't trying to say foreskin was a birth defect. I knew the analogy wasn't a good one, but it was the best I could come up with.

I am really trying to make everything in my brain come together and make sense. I am not trying to start a debate or anything like that. I just have nagging thoughts I am trying to find answers to.

Hello and welcome. As far as the comparison to a cleft lip repair, I do understand where you are comming from, but look at it this way. The foreskin is known to have several advantages, thousands of sensitive nerve endings, protects the glans and urethral opening, stimulates the glans during intercourse, ect. Removing it takes away all of those advantages. Repairing a cleft lip does not take anything advantageous away.

And as far as circumcising three boys and then questioning the issue. There is a very well know woman who has also done this. She is Marilyn Milos, the founder of NOCIRC. She had three boys, all circed and then went into nursing school. This is where she saw her first live circumcision. She was horrified that this is what was done to her sons, so she became an advocate for boys everywhere!
http://www.nocirc.org

I hope you find the information you are looking for.
Take care,
Tara

[Houdini]

Originally Posted by secretresistance

As for the part I bolded, I believe that if a parent is truly well informed about the realities of circumcision, there can be no reason good enough to go ahead with it. ETA: Although my opinion on that is admittedly skewed as I have never been under intense circ-related pressure from a husband/partner, nor do I have religious beliefs strong enough to influence me to go against my beliefs about circ.

Your post made a lot of sense. Maybe I am having a harder time with it b/c my family feels leaving a child intact is poor parenting. They feel it causes more problems to leave a child intact.

I don't agree with them as I delve further into the research, but it makes it just one more thing I do that is perceived as radical by my family.

[AmyAngel]

Originally Posted by Houdini
I guess I don't see it as my place to decide for other people.

Originally Posted by eclipse

This is the reason I am anti-circing. It is not anyone's place to decide this issue for other people. When boys are circ'd as infants, other people are deciding for them.

I agree. It's not my body, so it's not my place to have cosmetic surgery done on it, and infant circumcision IS cosmetic surgery. I won't make that decision for any children I have. Repair of a birth anomaly is totally different.

I'm very thankful that I have found this place and been able to research, learn, and make this decision BEFORE having children! I hope you continue to learn (as I am continuing to learn). You can't go back and un-circ your sons, but you can educate yourself, and THEM! Learning about this issue now may be a way for you to end the tradition of circumcision in your family - by the time your sons have children circ will likely be much more uncommon than it is now, and the knowledge you gain now can help THEIR sons in the future.

[secretresistance]

Originally Posted by Houdini

Your post made a lot of sense. Maybe I am having a harder time with it b/c my family feels leaving a child intact is poor parenting. They feel it causes more problems to leave a child intact.

I don't agree with them as I delve further into the research, but it makes it just one more thing I do that is perceived as radical by my family.

I think it's so excellent that you're persisting in your search for information. I would imagine that for many people thoughts about circ are ruled by emotion and it can be difficult for factual information to carry the weight it should. While your family may feel that being intact is problematic, the facts just don't support that. Hopefully they will come to be able to realize which is more important here.

[Bm31]

Originally Posted by Houdini

I am not even sure what questions I have. I have seen the information and I know the reasons for not circ'ing. It even seems I am falling of the fence and becoming an advocate, but I still am having trouble getting behind the idea that circ=abuse. I think that some people who do know the facts behind why a child should remain intact, but still feel for whatever reason that they should circ. It isn't misinformation at this point, just the parental decision to circ or not. Why do I get a say in this parent's decision for their child? I also understand that the decision should be left to the child b/c it is a permanent change. The same could be said for my decision to put my son through surgery to further fix his nose and lip shape (he was born with cleft lip). I know the analogy isn't the same, but this is where my thoughts are going. I am just trying to be honest in my hesitation.

Like your son, I was re-circ'd due to adhesions. I suppose the difference is that I was 6 and have full recall of it. It wasn't that the surgery made some big traumatic impact on my psyche; it wasn't fun, but things healed up and went back to "normal" pretty quicky. It was the long-term physical effects this meddling had on my sexual well-being that haunt me to this day.

I won't get into the laundry list of circ complications I had thanks to undergoing two cuts since it doesn't sound like it's the case with your son at this point. However, I will point out that I underwent a third "procedure"...a meatotomy, to correct one of the circ-caused complications as well. What does strike me as odd is when people are putting down intactness and constantly reference stories like those of your step-father....that "had" to have it done later in life, when it almost always was due to poor care/medical advice. Yet when it comes to situations like mine or your son's, nobody talks about what we had to go through in TWICE facing the possible complications of circ. And for what? The all-important goal of getting rid of a natural body part that we were meant to have??

I will just never get it. I know most parents make this decision out of what they think is the best interest of their child. But this isn't really a decision that needs to be made. And it's a permanent one. My parents may have had responsibility for me and my well-being for 18 years, but I have now had sole proprietorship of my body and what's left of my penis for 22 years...and hopefully many more years to go. Their actions affected my entire life. I don't hate my parents for what they did. I understand the ignorance of he time and place they came from when it happened. But we know better now, and should do better by the future children.

[l_olive]

You can read here
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=469671

for some of my reasons for being anti-circ.

Good luck in your research,

--Olive

[Rhiannon Feimorgan]

Originally Posted by Houdini

I am not even sure what questions I have. I have seen the information and I know the reasons for not circ'ing. It even seems I am falling of the fence and becoming an advocate, but I still am having trouble getting behind the idea that circ=abuse. I think that some people who do know the facts behind why a child should remain intact, but still feel for whatever reason that they should circ. It isn't misinformation at this point, just the parental decision to circ or not. Why do I get a say in this parent's decision for their child? I also understand that the decision should be left to the child b/c it is a permanent change. The same could be said for my decision to put my son through surgery to further fix his nose and lip shape (he was born with cleft lip). I know the analogy isn't the same, but this is where my thoughts are going. I am just trying to be honest in my hesitation.

If someone circs their son because of medical advice given to them or because it's "what's done" without knowing all the reasons not to circ than I don't realy consider that abuse, just tragic misinfomation. But if someone knows, and circs anyway than yes I do consider that abuse. Having any other body part cut off a newborn infant for no good reason would be considerd abuse by most people why is a forskin any diferant?

[Lula's Mom]

By any chance, is your family under the impression that parents of intact babies must pull back the foreskin and clean underneath?

[MommytoB]

Houdini,

In ways there is alot of misinformation and misunderstanding on the foreskin and circumcision by doctors, nurse, families and the view our society takes.

Like one time It was actually 'recommended' for boys to be circ so all boys were circ then another time there was a break in circumcision when one claim was their was no medical indication to circ so there was alot of decrease but then came claims of potential benefits so it went up. Then it got changed that aap does not 'recommend routine infant circumcision' so then the decrease started again. I'm for sure if it states no medical indication again it would be a barely circ placed.

It depends on what people think of what their view of foreskin is which it may not be it was what they were 'taught ' to believe.

If people were taught to believe it would cause problems, diseases, is dirty , bad then that would be what people would believe.

Like for cultures I think if certain people 'saw more ' ppl having kids and choosing to do the opposite of what they think 'everyone' is doing I'm for sure there would be a decrease definetly.

I am learning that there are more intact people in my family and I even know of later circ botched jobs(my grandpa had a late circ forced by the military in WW2 told him it was cleaner now since he has hit senility had to go to the nursing home. Before that I saw him nude brought him his briefs let me tell you it was the 'baddest circ I ever seen' it looked like a buried penis with a small weenie that would be 'split in half only showing the inside.

In ways right before my son was born I had assumption you had to pull back foreskin to clean under it when a boy was born otherwise the glans would get all dirty. Anyways I research for How to Care for not circ boys or how to care for foreskin etc they said Do not "pull it back" force it back or clean under the foreskin which completely suprised me. It also suprised my aunt-a teacher who taught preschool/had her own daycare, and my mom.

I had caught my mom pulling back my son's foreskin when he was 9 wks old and I go mom you don't do that then she goes how do you clean it then you just wipe on the top of the foreskin. My mom's sister told me you know you need to pull it back to clean it I told her in the olden days it was told to be done but not anymore. The boy who has the foreskin will be able to do that when he is able to 'retract' on his own . I told her the pedi told me that.

A home care nurse actually crossed off Old Foreskin Care that stated pull back foreskin scrub with 'alcohol' , clean the inside of the foreskin with cutips. She said to me this information isn't recommended anymore so don't follow it.


So as I went running around parenting message boards after I had my son I saw parents talking of how much diseases or problems that foreskin causes and I thought they were weird but I learned down the road they were fooled by doctors from phony phimosis to assumption smegma is a bacterial infection because it looked like pus with no 'real cultures' but just a doctor opinion dx.


I learned so much of that my state that I was born in and came back to with my son is 'very high circ' and alot of very high grade school circ because of one pro-circ peditriacian who I know I will 'completly avoid'. I got a feeling of one other doctor being pro-circ but he won't be a easy one to avoid.

My son's doctor I think he will do whatever I ask and request of him.

[cristina63303]

Hi Houdini and, once again, Welcome! (Thanks, Yoshua, wherever you are, for sending Houdini our way)

I'm also very impressed by your courage. It is a very difficult situation you find yourself in, yet you choose to face it directly and to learn.

Are you aware that circumcision is a U.S. thing? I live in Europe (in Germany) and people are mostly not even aware that Americans do this!!! Actually they're completely shocked, when they find out!!! "WHY?!" is the first thing they invariably blurt out. Followed by head-shaking incomprehension.

For us intact is the norm: we don't remove our babies foreskins, we don't mess with them, we don't try to retract them (ever - they do that themselves) we don't agonize because they are not retractible yet at age ____ (fill in the blank: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 13, 15... and beyond) our peds know all of this (they mostly support our extended breastfeeding efforts, as well) and they also would not consider retracting a boy's foreskin. And we're not some remote place with sub-standard medicine (this is another argument of the American pro-circ). The best part is: our boys/men have actually no foreskin problems!!! (well, I guess they do, seldom, but they also sometimes have problems with their fingers, with their noses, with their feet, with their eyes, etc... and they also do not run around amputating those preventively.

And talking about eyes, have you ever thought of lifting your son's eyelids to clean underneath? hmmm, interesting... how do THEY stay clean?

In any case... in your research, try to read up on the history of circumcision (anyone have a link to share with Houdini?). You may be surprised, and even become very, very angry that you were mislead.

I also do see infant circumcision as abuse (adult circumcision is another matter, because it's the owner of the penis deciding. it may be unnecessary, but it't none of my business). IC is abuse on the part of doctors who KNOW better. I really feel for parents who, like you, only find out after it's done. No one can tell you you abused your sons: you did not know AND were mislead by doctors, society, family, etc... When you know better, you do better.

Please stick around. And feel free to ask away. And forgive us if we get REALLY passionate about this. This issue does that to people.

Cristina

[cristina63303]

Hi Houdini and, once again, Welcome! (Thanks, Yoshua, wherever you are, for sending Houdini our way)

I'm also very impressed by your courage. It is a very difficult situation you find yourself in, yet you choose to face it directly and to learn.

Are you aware that circumcision is a U.S. thing? I live in Europe (in Germany) and people are mostly not even aware that Americans do this!!! Actually they're completely shocked, when they find out!!! "WHY?!" is the first thing they invariably blurt out. Followed by head-shaking incomprehension.

For us intact is the norm: we don't remove our babies foreskins, we don't mess with them, we don't try to retract them (ever - they do that themselves) we don't agonize because they are not retractible yet at age ____ (fill in the blank: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 13, 15... and beyond) our peds know all of this (they mostly support our extended breastfeeding efforts, as well) and they also would not consider retracting a boy's foreskin. And we're not some remote place with sub-standard medicine (this is another argument of the American pro-circ). The best part is: our boys/men have actually no foreskin problems!!! (well, I guess they do, seldom, but they also sometimes have problems with their fingers, with their noses, with their feet, with their eyes, etc... and they also do not run around amputating those preventively.

And talking about eyes, have you ever thought of lifting your son's eyelids to clean underneath? hmmm, interesting... how do THEY stay clean?

In any case... in your research, try to read up on the history of circumcision (anyone have a link to share with Houdini?). You may be surprised, and even become very, very angry that you were mislead.

I also do see infant circumcision as abuse (adult circumcision is another matter, because it's the owner of the penis deciding. it may be unnecessary, but it't none of my business). IC is abuse on the part of doctors who KNOW better. I really feel for parents who, like you, only find out after it's done. No one can tell you you abused your sons: you did not know AND were mislead by doctors, society, family, etc... When you know better, you do better.

Please stick around. And feel free to ask away. And forgive us if we get REALLY passionate about this. This issue does that to people.

Cristina

[Ilaria]

Originally Posted by cristina63303

I live in Europe (in Germany) and people are mostly not even aware that Americans do this!!! Actually they're completely shocked, when they find out!!! "WHY?!" is the first thing they invariably blurt out. Followed by head-shaking incomprehension.

For us intact is the norm: we don't remove our babies foreskins, we don't mess with them, we don't try to retract them (ever - they do that themselves) we don't agonize because they are not retractible yet at age ____ (fill in the blank: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 13, 15... and beyond) our peds know all of this (they mostly support our extended breastfeeding efforts, as well) and they also would not consider retracting a boy's foreskin. And we're not some remote place with sub-standard medicine (this is another argument of the American pro-circ). The best part is: our boys/men have actually no foreskin problems!!! (well, I guess they do, seldom, but they also sometimes have problems with their fingers, with their noses, with their feet, with their eyes, etc... and they also do not run around amputating those preventively.

Total ditto on that! (except I'm from Italy, but kind of American, living in the Philippines)