or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Understanding Circumcision › Question from a member who only lurks on this forum
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Question from a member who only lurks on this forum - Page 3

post #41 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula's Mom
By any chance, is your family under the impression that parents of intact babies must pull back the foreskin and clean underneath?
Honestly, I am not sure about all of them. My brother's baby, Blayton, was born with lung issues and was transferred to Children's Hospital within a few hours of his birth. He was in and out of the hospital for the next few months with various issues and was on a ventilator three different times for various lengths of time. He was never circ'd b/c the Children's Hospital doesn't do circ's.....it is up to the ped to do the circ or the hospital where the baby was born. Blayton's ped is now six months and is still not circ'd. SIL inquired about the circ being done and the ped is recommending she not to it at this time (ped doesn't think he should be circ'd at all) b/c his lungs are damaged. The ped is worried about him being put on a vent again. Anyways, I have been telling SIL about what happens during a circ after they are older and encouraging to let him be intact. I honestly don't know where that came from, but to me it seemed appropriate for his situation. I let them know how to care for Blayton's penis using info from this forum.

My encouragment to leave Blayton intact coupled with talking to Yoshua has made me think more on this subject.
post #42 of 69




happy 1k.
post #43 of 69
Thread Starter 
Thanks Yoshua!!
post #44 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
Yoshua has answered some questions for me already. I am just trying to process information at this point. My oldest son has a run of the mill circ and my youngest two are loose circs. Honestly though they didn't appear to be circ'd when it was done. We had adhesion issues with my middle son and he was re-circ'd at 18 months (unnecssarily according to Yoshua). Not a pretty experience. My youngest also has a loose circ and had adhesions issues, but I decided rather than continually retracting (forcibly) I would leave him to his own devices. He is now five and doing alright. I still wonder if everything is going along fine with him. He retracts his own foreskin most of the way back with just the ridge line not be visible.

One of the things that I asked Yoshua about was the amount of sensitivity my younger two experience with their penis that their brother never had. They are both constantly trying to push their penis back into the foreskin. I guessed it had to do with sensitivity to the head of the penis b/c it hadn't been exposed until they were older. Even when I would retract them the foreskin would cover the head of the penis back up.
I think that last bit of lines says it all, don't you? They're more sensitive because their glans were always covered despite being circ'd. By the nature of "growing into their penises and circs" (as the function of a loose circ is suppose to do), they now had to accept by forces beyond their control that their glans must now be permanently exposed and they're experiencing the sensitivity and SADLY desensitizing of their glans, something that infant baby boys experience, too, but are not able to express.

I don't get how you can be on the fence about circumcision. Your younger boys are living proof that their (becoming) less sensitive males w/ external sex organ parts that are meant to be internal and physically trying to reverse it (sadly, a losing battle until they're older and discover the joys of "uncircumcising"). And the fact your oldest son never had that sensitivity just echos how wrong circumcision....... even excluding the human rights violation for a second, is. It just doesn't make sense to make something less sexual when it's such an important part of being human. Yeah, not now, but eventually and for life!!!
post #45 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
In my family there was no discussion about not circ'ing. It just was what was done when you had a boy. My mother is dead set against leaving a boy intact b/c she has heard too many medical horror stories about infection. My step-father apparently was circ'd at eighteen b/c of problems (don't know the details). I never really questioned it until recently.
People use to beat the living daylights out of their kids in the '50s (tragically, it still continues) because it was "just done" and the horror stories of not spanking your kids and having them grow up to be little deviants logically never panned out. So.... if they no longer whip their kids w/ belts, why would you circumcise just because it's "just done".
post #46 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
Your post made a lot of sense. Maybe I am having a harder time with it b/c my family feels leaving a child intact is poor parenting. They feel it causes more problems to leave a child intact.

I don't agree with them as I delve further into the research, but it makes it just one more thing I do that is perceived as radical by my family.
That would mean 80% of the world's men who have parents show bad parenting. I don't see it. As for it being perceived as radical (leaving intact), wouldn't say if you want to clip the clitoral hood off of your daughter seem radical by them? Yes. So why do that to the males? What happened to gender equality?
post #47 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Microsoap
People use to beat the living daylights out of their kids in the '50s (tragically, it still continues) because it was "just done" and the horror stories of not spanking your kids and having them grow up to be little deviants logically never panned out. So.... if they no longer whip their kids w/ belts, why would you circumcise just because it's "just done".
This is the reason I stayed away from this forum. I came to ask questions and to look into more information. I did not come here to be slammed for my parenting choices.
post #48 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Microsoap
I think that last bit of lines says it all, don't you? They're more sensitive because their glans were always covered despite being circ'd. By the nature of "growing into their penises and circs" (as the function of a loose circ is suppose to do), they now had to accept by forces beyond their control that their glans must now be permanently exposed and they're experiencing the sensitivity and SADLY desensitizing of their glans, something that infant baby boys experience, too, but are not able to express.

I don't get how you can be on the fence about circumcision. Your younger boys are living proof that their (becoming) less sensitive males w/ external sex organ parts that are meant to be internal and physically trying to reverse it (sadly, a losing battle until they're older and discover the joys of "uncircumcising"). And the fact your oldest son never had that sensitivity just echos how wrong circumcision....... even excluding the human rights violation for a second, is. It just doesn't make sense to make something less sexual when it's such an important part of being human. Yeah, not now, but eventually and for life!!!
Nevermind.
post #49 of 69
Thread Starter 
I think I will just return to lurk status. Thanks to all who were helpful.
post #50 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
This is the reason I stayed away from this forum. I came to ask questions and to look into more information. I did not come here to be slammed for my parenting choices.
I'm sorry. I didn't intent it as a slam. I would never slam a parenting asking for help. I think what you're doing is incredible (for lack of a better word) and I think you're the very parent children should have. Someone who wants to put the best interest of the children first. I want to thank you soooo much for coming here. It's parents who are unwilling to learn or worse, are told of all the info and do it anway, that frustrate me. I hope I haven't turned you off of this forum. I couldn't live with myself if I ever did that.
post #51 of 69
Houdini, please don't leave. You are in a sensitive place right now, and Microsoap asked some tough questions. I know it is hard to think about all of this stuff. But I am sure it was NOT a slam!
post #52 of 69

Please stay... please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
No offense, but it is posts like this that keep me away from this forum.
I can understand what you mean and it is not my intention to turn you or any other person looking for more information off of this forum, but the sad reality is complications from circumcisions can range from adhesions (which your middle son had) to many rising types of disfigurements including amputation and even death, and they're more common than most think. It just seems those pesky "my mom knew this friend who had this brother who was intact and had complications..." seem to echo louder in circumcising countries.
post #53 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
I think I will just return to lurk status. Thanks to all who were helpful.
Please don't let posts that you are hurt by keep you away. You've done such a great thing for your nephew already, something that is difficult for me even years into my learning about circumcision.

Please stick around. I believe that it really does take courage to pursue this information when it goes against actions in the past. I've been so impressed with your willingness to be open so far. I know you can be open and just lurk, of course, but I think your voice is important here.
post #54 of 69
Houdini,

Your family is right that things can go wrong with the foreskin. However, that's no reason for circ. Consider the following -

As a female, how many various infections have you had? I, and most females, have had several. We treat them with antibiotics, or with Monistat, etc. No one has ever recommended surgery to prevent infections on me...and women get many, many more infections than intact boys.

Even if surgery were the best solution to infections, it would still be better to wait until they actually occured. The rate is so small. Even though tonsilitis is very common, we don't remove tonsils at birth. We don't remove body parts before a problem occurs.

Many people circ so their son won't have to go through it later. This is a little bit like crashing a brand new car right off the lot, just so you won't get surprised by a crash later on. Chances are, that crash would never occur, or wouldn't for a LONG time, and you'd get to enjoy the car in the meantime.
Also, as you have seen in your own family...your child is MORE likely to need a re-circ than they were to ever need a circ in the first place.

I hope you will stick around and learn, and disregard any posters who are being insensitive. I am glad you are questioning your current beliefs. It must be difficult to do so.
post #55 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by boingo82
Houdini,

Your family is right that things can go wrong with the foreskin. However, that's no reason for circ. Consider the following -

As a female, how many various infections have you had? I, and most females, have had several. We treat them with antibiotics, or with Monistat, etc. No one has ever recommended surgery to prevent infections on me...and women get many, many more infections than intact boys.

Even if surgery were the best solution to infections, it would still be better to wait until they actually occured. The rate is so small. Even though tonsilitis is very common, we don't remove tonsils at birth. We don't remove body parts before a problem occurs.

Many people circ so their son won't have to go through it later. This is a little bit like crashing a brand new car right off the lot, just so you won't get surprised by a crash later on. Chances are, that crash would never occur, or wouldn't for a LONG time, and you'd get to enjoy the car in the meantime.
Also, as you have seen in your own family...your child is MORE likely to need a re-circ than they were to ever need a circ in the first place.

I hope you will stick around and learn, and disregard any posters who are being insensitive. I am glad you are questioning your current beliefs. It must be difficult to do so.
Boingo! I love that analogy about buying a new car and crashing it right off the lot. It just makes so much sense.

Houdini, I'm probably not the best one to say this, but... one thing that may keep some circumcising parents "on the fence" is the unwillingness to accept they have made a mistake circumcising their son (s). If you check out the 'parents who regret circumcising their sons' thread here, you'll find parents who have accepted they made the wrong decision, mostly because out of misinformation... and while it's a hard mistake to accept (inflicting a permanent totally unnecessary and sexually damaging surgery), it's important to make sure it never happens again.
post #56 of 69
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Microsoap
I'm sorry. I didn't intent it as a slam. I would never slam a parenting asking for help. I think what you're doing is incredible (for lack of a better word) and I think you're the very parent children should have. Someone who wants to put the best interest of the children first. I want to thank you soooo much for coming here. It's parents who are unwilling to learn or worse, are told of all the info and do it anway, that frustrate me. I hope I haven't turned you off of this forum. I couldn't live with myself if I ever did that.
I am trying to figure all this stuff out. I am still grappling with the idea that a person can know all the reasons not to circ and then still decide to circ. Maybe in their inner circle there are several males who have had complications from being left intact. Maybe....they only know one. That is their reference point and I can't make the jump the they aren't doing what they believe to be in the best interest of their child. It doesn't make them ignorant to the information....just going off their own experiences. It doesn't make their experiences any less real to them. I get that it isn't necessary the right decision, but from their vantage point it is for them.

I can't even blame society or anything else really for my boys being circ'd. I just went with what was done. I never even thought to question it. I know that gives me the lack of information excuse, but I don't think that really matters.

I am not even sure what else in my brain right now....

I take issues with the statement I am the person who should parent children just b/c I would choose to advocate for a child to remain intact. I can wrap my head around the impact of that statement.

I am really not trying to advocate for circ.....these are just the questions in my head and my issues with some statements I have read.

I am open to the statement that I may have made a mistake in circ'ing. I may even be letting that sink in more and more. Maybe that is what is keeping me on the fence......maybe not. I am even able to admit/accept that fact at some point.

Yoshua, (if you are lurking) keep steering me in the right direction....I am able to hear things more clearly from you. I know you are advocating for the cause, but you are able to show it in a way that doesn't shut my ears. I am trying to keep an open mind and not be defensive although I am not sure it is working right now.
post #57 of 69
Houdini, it sounds like you have a lot to process right now. We are happy to answer questions if you have them. Remember also, there are a lot of mothers at case against circ who circumcised some or all of their sons. You aren't alone.
post #58 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
I am still grappling with the idea that a person can know all the reasons not to circ and then still decide to circ. Maybe in their inner circle there are several males who have had complications from being left intact. Maybe....they only know one. That is their reference point and I can't make the jump the they aren't doing what they believe to be in the best interest of their child. It doesn't make them ignorant to the information....just going off their own experiences. It doesn't make their experiences any less real to them. I get that it isn't necessary the right decision, but from their vantage point it is for them.

I can't even blame society or anything else really for my boys being circ'd. I just went with what was done. I never even thought to question it. I know that gives me the lack of information excuse, but I don't think that really matters.
Can a person really know all the reasons not to circ and still find a reason to do so? ITA that parents who circ typically do think they are doing what is best for their children, but there is some ignorance involved in making a decision like this based on anecdotes (whether a circ horror story or a foreskin horror story!).

I don't know if you are trying to decide whether to condemn the parents making that choice because they have had an experience that: made them NOT really believe the information on the health and cleanliness of an intact penis (properly cared for) -OR- Or they didn't REALLY have that much info, and the hearsay or anecdote filled in the gaps -OR- they think it is a two-sided issue and both sides can be right so they just go with their feelings. These situations are plenty common. What you describe, about one man having complications "because he was left intact" is probably a misinterpretation because the complications were most likely not "caused" by having a foreskin--therefore it is ignorance. Are you trying to decide whether those who have some access to info but choose to rely on less valid or less definitive info are committing abuse in a criminal sense or near criminal sense? I don't think they need to be condemend for what they think, though their thinking is definitely flawed and unfortunately the childern pay dearly while the adults just think they are having "differences of opinion".

So if circ is described as abuse, I definitely agree and have called it that myself. The society unfortunately does bear the blame, as a whole we are letting all these boys down because we can't get it together enough to take this damage seriously and to protect them. Calling it abuse doesn't mean we have to point fingers and figure out which people are more guilty than others of doing it on purpose. As a whole we should know better because we DO know better, but how does a whole society really learn something like this? Too slowly... SIGH And how to learn it as a society without being perceived as massively anti-semitic?

There are a lot of people going around thinking circ is "doing the right thing" for so many reasons and their intentions are of course good, yet I believe it is ultimately a one-sided issue without any valid "pro-RIC" arguments in existence. The majority of folks haven't even begun to believe this is a serious issue--it is treated very casually by most. That still shocks me. And that casualness is why a little bit of hearsay can seal a decision. Or an uncertain parent just goes along with a perceived norm, without much worrying about it:

"Hi I'm your nurse for today, your baby's doing great, we can cut off a bit of his penis now if you like-- whadda you say?"
post #59 of 69
Guys, let's not forget what we are: an internet message board. Now, how do we weigh against someone's doctor's advice? I can see how people yould choose to go with that!

I am fortunate enough to live in an environment where intact is the norm, the mainstream. "It's what is done". Doctors wouldn't even think of recommending circ!!! I don't know that I would have been courageous enough to go against the current on a medical issue, that is, aginst the general advice of doctors.

Example: I vax. I'm all for vax. I've talked about it with my wonderful ped and he agrees. I've read very little from the anti-vax side and it seems way too radical to me. I'm not trying to get off topic in this forum, just to find a way to put ourselves in the shoes of someone on the fence (or even opting to circ). Guys, we are sometims perceived as radical lunatics!!!

See my point?

I guess I struggle with this a lot. My best friend chose circ for her sons despite mountains of links I sent her and I don't know if she ever read (usual stupid arguments: look like dad, it's what is done...) and she's still my best friend. I HATE the choice she made, and I KNOW it's wrong. It's difficult not to think about it when we talk (seldom, we live in different continents) but I've never mentioned it again. I know how her brain is wired and I know she has the best interests of her children at heart. After all, it was her doctors' recommendation. She's clearly no child abuser!!! Social pressures influence us - all of us.

Houdini, keep up your (soul) search. We do tend to be a very passionate crowd, so please, please try not to take some statements too personally (easier said than done, I know). I would like to think that we can also offer you a shoulder to cry on if you need at some point. I can't imagine it being easy, what you're dealing with.

Cristina
post #60 of 69
Houdini, care for an answer from Scandinavia?

You were wondering this;

I am trying to figure all this stuff out. I am still grappling with the idea that a person can know all the reasons not to circ and then still decide to circ. Maybe in their inner circle there are several males who have had complications from being left intact.

This happens only in USA, It is all about cultural pressure and need to fit in. Then add to that 100 years of brainwashing about evils of foreskin, uneducated doctors and nurses(victims of the same brainwashing and lack of proper education)and voilà there you have an answer why people in USA still circ.

In intact cultures parents do not even think about this, the whole idea of cutting babies genitals is absurd and besides in many places like here in Scandinavia doctors absolutely refuse to do it.

As far as foreskin problems. They are very common ... in USA. Again in intact cultures foreskins are left alone and they extremely rarely cause any problems, circumcision is needed so rarely that there really aren't even statistics available(Scandinavia less than 0.006% of men need circumcision for real medical reasons).
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Understanding Circumcision
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Understanding Circumcision › Question from a member who only lurks on this forum