The average child - Page 6

[LeftField]

Originally Posted by Roar

Yes and many children who are gifted are misdiagnosed as having disorders. An awareness of what is going on intellectually with the child could often prevent misdiagnosis.

Absolutely. We researched many things when my oldest was a toddler: hyperlexia, apraxia, autism, PDD-NOS, etc. For us, the gifted label was a way of figuring out what was "wrong" with him and ruling the other stuff out. My youngest could very well be gifted and shows some signs, but he doesn't have developmental issues like his brother. So for him, I don't really talk about him on gifted lists or seek the label, because he doesn't appear to need it.

[LeftField]

Ok, last reply, because I posted without reading follow-ups. I apologize for making reference to the "freak" thing, because Oceanbaby explained that. I didn't mean to bring it back up again.

[loraxc]

It's been more along the lines of, "well, my son has only been multiplying since 2 or 3, so I cannot believe that other children can't do that! Is it really true that most 3 year olds cannot even count in sequence yet?? Wow!" And while it initially offended me as the mother of a non-PG but likely HG child (i.e. 'if your kid isn't multiplying at 3, he's not gifted' is exactly how it comes off), I feel like I understand it better now. To me, it seems more like denial, like "how do I wrap my head around the fact that my child is obviously that far on the extreme end of the curve?" I don't think people really want their kid to be that far down on any extreme of the curve, just a bit ahead. It's kind of how most people in the U.S. identify as middle class, when clearly, we cannot all be middle class. So, what appears to be an elitist put-down is really an expression of denial, IMHO.

This is a very perceptive read of the situation, and ITA. And I speak as someone who has done this song and dance herself.

While I don't consider giftedness (I also hate the word) "equivalent" to a disability, neither do I consider it a nonissue. I think there are as many flavors of "gifted" kid as there are of anything, too, especially when the net is wide and parents can push to have a child included in school GT programs. Some might see programs for the gifted as throwing money and whipped cream at someone who already is destined to be Homecoming Queen, valedictorian and president. And sometimes it *might* be that. You are going to get those kids in the mix in a PS gifted program--mildly/moderately gifted, great social skills, parents who support, etc. But in exchange for helping that kid, you might help another kid who is socially ostracized, miserable and isolated.

And no matter what, I think a deeper understanding of one's kid is always a good thing. I "get" my DD a lot more since reading up on giftedness.

[NoHiddenFees]

Originally Posted by loraxc

This is a very perceptive read of the situation, and ITA. And I speak as someone who has done this song and dance herself.

Me too. I feel like a weight has been lifted since I came to terms with it (reading Ruf did the trick for me). It seems silly now, but I couldn't even tell you why I was in denial. Part of it was, omigod what am I going to do? how can I help her? But I can't even say that was the major factor.

[oldcrunchymom]

Well, I am guilty of saying "I can't believe most kids aren't doing X by Y age" but that's only when I really find it hard to believe. Like on the Ruf list, under Level One, it lists being able to count by age 6 as an indicator of giftedness. Maybe I hang out with a ragingly intellectual crowd, but most kids I've known have been able to count (at least to ten or whatever) by age six. Now if the list said "count backwards from 1,000" or something, then YES, obviously I would agree. But counting? At all? Really?

On the other hand, I have generally found it hard to "forget" that my kid is gifted, when so many people comment on it. Especially when he was little. So it would be weird to me to say something like "I can't believe that three year old wasn't reading the newspaper!" since I was reminded day in and day out by others that stuff like that *wasn't* the norm. Does that make any sense? I'm thinking not. What I'm trying to say is that comments along those lines DO seem disingenuous, even if uttered with complete sincerity.

[LeftField]

.I'll send a PM

[eilonwy]

Okay, flyingspaghettimamma; perhaps you'd like to take a gander at answering a question that I asked a while ago. This thread, post #93.

I'm sorry that this thread deteriorated into another discussion of the needs of profoundly gifted children, too. All I wanted to say was this: Stop calling our kids names, and we'll leave you alone, too. Just afford us the same courtesy that political correctness requires that we afford you.

[hsmamato2]

ok,and I absolutely want to say, I don't think kids/adults who are brilliant are freaky,or weird at all! No one should call others names,especially children...
I think there are just so many types of people who fall within the "gifted" range(hate that term) that you can't lump them all together...
I mean,in my area, there were some 'gifted' kids parents who decided they needed their own hs playgroup, to play with other 'gifted' kids...now come on! Who was that benefitting? Do you have to pass an IQ test to play at the park with these people? What if your little brother isn't smart enough? That's how things get out of control...

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I'm sorry that this thread deteriorated into another discussion of the needs of profoundly gifted children, too. All I wanted to say was this: Stop calling our kids names, and we'll leave you alone, too. Just afford us the same courtesy that political correctness requires that we afford you.

If this scathing comment is directed at me, I'm a bit confused. I never called anyone names. I am not in some "average kids" opposing camp. You have no idea if my kids are LD, average, PG or any other socially constructed category. Regardless of the IQ or EQ or whatever social status of my own children, I can understand and respect the OP's desire to have threads discussing the full range of personality and intellectual ability.

[oceanbaby]

All I wanted to say was this: Stop calling our kids names, and we'll leave you alone, too. Just afford us the same courtesy that political correctness requires that we afford you.

Wow - the only reason you don't call our "average" kids names is because political correctness requires that you don't? Other than that you would? I can't believe I read such a divisive statement on this forum, let alone MDC at all. I know you are reading my comments as calling gifted kids freaky, which I have explained is not at all a correct interpretation. But to put it out there that you have such an "us" against "them" mentality really does nothing to further a discussion about anything - gifted kids, regular kids, whatever.

Your comment makes it sound like this board is full of deregatory, name calling comments towards gifted kids, and I have never seen that here. I cannot tell you how much I regret sharing my opinion about the Oprah show, as everyone seems to have clung on to that to desperately support their fear that people think their gifted kids are somehow weird. I have never been more sorry that I posted quickly between cleaning up frozen blueberries and changing diapers without thinking more completely about the structure of my paragraph to make sure it reflected exactly what I was trying to say.

I can't believe I'm even posting here again, as it took my most of last afternoon to just come down from feeling upset about being so misunderstood, but I was shocked to read such a mean spirited, divisive statement. How does that help anyone?

Edited to add: I don't want you to leave me alone. I love your posts, I love reading about your family, and I love hearing about your homeschooling journey. What point is a discussion board if we all leave each other alone because our kids learn differently? I don't get that way of thinking.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by LeftField

.I'll send a PM

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Okay, flyingspaghettimamma; perhaps you'd like to take a gander at answering a question that I asked a while ago. This thread, post #93.

I'm sorry that this thread deteriorated into another discussion of the needs of profoundly gifted children, too. All I wanted to say was this: Stop calling our kids names, and we'll leave you alone, too. Just afford us the same courtesy that political correctness requires that we afford you.

Mee-ow! This is some of the "inclusive and supportive" language that so turned me off of any sort of gifted labelling or online groups. Thanks, but I'd rather hang with parents who don't label or self-segregate. And I have constantly seen put-downs and comparisons with "average" or "low gifted" children like there's no tomorrow in many groups, so I guess that political correctness isn't working out too well as a deterrent.

[LeftField]

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

Mee-ow! This is some of the "inclusive and supportive" language that so turned me off of any sort of gifted labelling or online groups. Thanks, but I'd rather hang with parents who don't label or self-segregate. And I have constantly seen put-downs and comparisons with "average" or "low gifted" children like there's no tomorrow in many groups, so I guess that political correctness isn't working out too well as a deterrent.

Um, Ok. How is "I'll send a PM" a nasty and divisive thing to say?? I wanted to reply to Lisa (knowing her from elsewhere online) and I realized that my reply was way way OT. So, since I could not delete, I simply replaced it with ".I'll send a PM". My comment to her was really personal in nature and I didn't think it belonged on this thread since it was not remotely related to the spirit of the OP and was more along of the lines of personal conversation. Maybe you haven't read the other numerous things I've posted on this thread? I'm the last person who would rally around a gifted vs. "average" banner. Trust me. And I've said a host of things that pretty much is going to make me unwelcome at lots of gifted threads anyway. . I feel as though I should copy and paste my own words where I strongly disagreed with comparing toddlers and spoke about the complexity of human development, but if you have skipped over all that to focus on the one line, "I'll send a PM", then I don't think you're listening anyway.

[LeftField]

Ok, because I'm having a hard time letting this go... I guess you also skipped the post where I described my oldest son as gifted in visual-spatial areas, average in many areas and behind in gross motor skills. I don't even know what "average" means, since people are not one-dimensional characatures (sp?)....I, personally, am pretty "average" as is everyone in my family and my husband's family. There is not one individual in either of our families who has been labeled "gifted", self-identified as gifted or even been to a school where a gifted program exists. My children are homeschooled so that they may be treated like the complex individuals that they are, rather than be pegged into a tidy little box. We unschool so that their interests can lead them to wherever their little hearts desire. I have ZERO us vs them mentality. I have sought out gifted resources for my oldest when I needed the information and support for his developmental needs and quirks, much like I did when I thought he might have hyperlexia among other things. But my world-view is not colored by "gifted vs average" as that is just not remotely in my life experience or the life experience of anyone I'm related to.

You have grossly misinterpreted the tone of my one measly little line there. And I'm posting this to clarify because: 1. I don't like being misrepresented, 2. I love this homeschool board and 3. tone is incredibly difficult to ascertain on discussion boards.

[my3monkees]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Okay, flyingspaghettimamma; perhaps you'd like to take a gander at answering a question that I asked a while ago. This thread, post #93.

I'm sorry that this thread deteriorated into another discussion of the needs of profoundly gifted children, too. All I wanted to say was this: Stop calling our kids names, and we'll leave you alone, too. Just afford us the same courtesy that political correctness requires that we afford you.

Goodness gracious!: I started this thread mainly too have a little fun, so many post lately have been directed to gifted children. Which, no I can't relate to. My children are very bright and intelligent, but not the profoundly gifted you are all talking about. Honestly most children aren't. But, this is what it has turned into?? Average vs. gifted?? You insult my child so I'll insult yours?? What a shame that something started in good humor has turned into this!:

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by LeftField

Um, Ok. How is "I'll send a PM" a nasty and divisive thing to say?? I wanted to reply to Lisa (knowing her from elsewhere online) and I realized that my reply was way way OT. So, since I could not delete, I simply replaced it with ".I'll send a PM". My comment to her was really personal in nature and I didn't think it belonged on this thread since it was not remotely related to the spirit of the OP and was more along of the lines of personal conversation. Maybe you haven't read the other numerous things I've posted on this thread? I'm the last person who would rally around a gifted vs. "average" banner. Trust me. And I've said a host of things that pretty much is going to make me unwelcome at lots of gifted threads anyway. . I feel as though I should copy and paste my own words where I strongly disagreed with comparing toddlers and spoke about the complexity of human development, but if you have skipped over all that to focus on the one line, "I'll send a PM", then I don't think you're listening anyway.

Ok, fair enough if you didn't mean it that way. I saw your post about comparing toddlers and so on, but also where you said you disagreed with a lot of what I and others have said. So I assumed that you were PMing the snarky comments instead of sharing them with the thread, which I've seen others do a time or two. So, I'm sorry for making the assumption. Or in the common vernacular, My Bad.

[darien]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

Your comment makes it sound like this board is full of deregatory, name calling comments towards gifted kids, and I have never seen that here.

Oceanbaby, I am NOT trying to pick on you, but I would like to put in my opinion on this issue.

As the parent of a 9 y.o. and a toddler (the older id'd as "gifted," and the younger seemingly following in his tracks), I read a wide variety of MDC forums. I haven't seen much OPEN name-calling or derogatory comments, but there is plenty of "crunchier than thou" and "all children are gifted" going on.

It's a lonely, isolating feeling to know that sharing what's new with my kids is likely to be taken as bragging or lying. As a disclaimer... I can recall parents who have tactlessly boasted, parents who have NO CLUE about child development who think their kids are geniuses, and hey, it's the Internet-- someone's got to be lying.

It makes me cringe to hear "just let them be kids" in all its variations. A pushy parent needs to hear this. But to a parent whose child is racing ahead pulling them along, it's dismissive and insulting.

I'm grateful that my kids are healthy. I'm pleased that they're "extra" intelligent. : I don't think that smarter means better, and I wish that I could speak freely about my kids without so many people making that assumption.

I'll hush now.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by darien

Oceanbaby, I am NOT trying to pick on you, but I would like to put in my opinion on this issue.

As the parent of a 9 y.o. and a toddler (the older id'd as "gifted," and the younger seemingly following in his tracks), I read a wide variety of MDC forums. I haven't seen much OPEN name-calling or derogatory comments, but there is plenty of "crunchier than thou" and "all children are gifted" going on.

It's a lonely, isolating feeling to know that sharing what's new with my kids is likely to be taken as bragging or lying. As a disclaimer... I can recall parents who have tactlessly boasted, parents who have NO CLUE about child development who think their kids are geniuses, and hey, it's the Internet-- someone's got to be lying.

It makes me cringe to hear "just let them be kids" in all its variations. A pushy parent needs to hear this. But to a parent whose child is racing ahead pulling them along, it's dismissive and insulting.

I'm grateful that my kids are healthy. I'm pleased that they're "extra" intelligent. : I don't think that smarter means better, and I wish that I could speak freely about my kids without so many people making that assumption.

I'll hush now.

So your children are intellectually gifted - why do you take it as a personal affront for someone to say "all children are gifted?" Perhaps other children are gifted socially, physically, or in some way not measurable by (rather debatable) IQ tests. How does that hurt you or your child?

Why can't there not be an average? Because - to quote the Incredibles, or
Ayn Rand, I can never remember which - if everyone is special, no one is? I don't take it (all kids are gifted) personally, and I embrace it. Sure, parents have issues with their kids - but don't all parents? Some kids are socially inept, some are physically inept, some are schooling inept, and so on. We all have issues, but I do not understand self-segregating via labelling based upon purported intellect alone.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

I do not understand self-segregating via labelling based upon purported intellect alone.

Is it your belief that there is no such thing as intellectual giftedness? Are kids intellectually all born the same? Are there people with unusual abilities?

[LeftField]

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

Ok, fair enough if you didn't mean it that way. I saw your post about comparing toddlers and so on, but also where you said you disagreed with a lot of what I and others have said. So I assumed that you were PMing the snarky comments instead of sharing them with the thread, which I've seen others do a time or two. So, I'm sorry for making the assumption. Or in the common vernacular, My Bad.

Oh no, I wasn't sharing snarkiness about you or griping about this thread. And while I might disagree with you on some points, I respect your right to have those POVs and I enjoy reading differing POVs; they make me think more. Sorry for being so quick-tempered in my response. to everyone here. This board needs some healing vibes or something.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by Roar

Is it your belief that there is no such thing as intellectual giftedness? Are kids intellectually all born the same? Are there people with unusual abilities?

Sure, but what do you mean by intellectual giftedness - Fantastic memory? Photographic memory? Arithmetic skills? A great sense of patterning? Ability to "read" situations? Trivia knowledge? Problem-solving abilties? Rich fantasy life? Hand-eye coordination? Language sense? Puzzle aptitude? Musical ability? An ability to communicate verbally and nonverbally? Cultural awareness? Cultural sensitivity? Mind-body coordination? The fastest way to get cross-town? Memorization of animals at the zoo, their habitats, and places of origin? Or of all the characters in Digimon? These all use the brain - Why is one or a few of these abilities prized so much more and awarded the label where the others are ignored or considered unintellectual pursuits? I'm talkin' about deconstruction, baby.

The human mind is so diverse in its abilities, I just don't think that one label appropriately captures much except what society deems important - namely an acuity for that which can be produced verbally or on paper - usually trivia, arithmetic, language. Ergo, the small child on Oprah wowing those with a production (verbal recitation) of something society finds important, somehow (dead white man presidents), and therefore deemed gifted. Whereas the child who has memorized the cast of Digimon and all their correlating special powers is deemed to be wasting time, and won't be on Oprah (there are too many of them!).

I do think all children are special, and have special talents - it's whether or not the parents and society can also recognize the talents/interests/gifts as special and worthy of recognition.