or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Talk Amongst Ourselves › Spirituality › Religious Studies › God made men leaders
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

God made men leaders - Page 8

post #141 of 157
Thanks for the response, Calm, I included you in that question because you seemed to be agreeing with BB on that issue. I do know that you were the first one to bring up all the Buddhists who do not read Sanscrit (sp?, it's late here) so I was confused.

Wonder if BB is going to respond?
post #142 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thao

Wonder if BB is going to respond?
To what?
post #143 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
Nope. B/c LDSs depend on the Bible as well as the Book of Moroni. They are comfortable thinking god talked to Smith in pseudo-KJVese.
I assume you meant Book of Mormon, unless you were referring to only the Book of Moroni within the Book of Mormon.
post #144 of 157
Quote:
we tend to filter our experiences through our beliefs
I should reword it then to the closest one can get to absolute truth is personal experience.

Of course, we still need to add caveats for insanity and things like it. For instance, I am eating an apple. This is absolute truth for me, my reality, my experience. If my husband walked in and said, "I just ate an apple" that is not absolute truth, I would have to take that on faith: "I believe he just ate an apple." I couldn't say "I know he just ate an apple" unless I saw it.

And then that is all subject to my mental health. I am eating an apple could be an hallucination, I could be out of my mind and there is no apple at all.

And the filters of which you speak can be worked on also. There is the reality of a situation, and then my thoughts about that reality. The actual reality is tiny compared to my thoughts about it. These are the filters. If I practise living in reality, seeing things as they really are and not as I imagine/think them to mean to me, then I can get closer to absolute truth.

What is the one thing that you know for sure? This is a question often used to jolt people, and a common one. Because there is only one answer. "I exist" or "I am here now". Everything else is an illusion. Or to put it in friendlier terms, everything else is just a thought.

Circling back to biblical terms, "God made men leaders" is just a thought, it doesn't exist unless you think it. Once you've thought it, you then choose to believe it or not. If I want to base that on absolute truth instead of merely faith, then I must know it as truth, I must experience it. In this case, there is still no evidence.
post #145 of 157
Sorry, BB, I missed your post on the previous page. I was really tired last night. Now I understand where you are coming from.

I'm all for lifelong learning, but don't agree that one needs to learn a new language to fully participate in a religion. It is exclusive, as you said, because there are some people that may be great at learning about cars but hopeless at languages. But then, I'm part of a spiritual community that is based more on practice and personal experience (while following guidelines set out in our scriptures) than on following a Book that is considered the revealed Word of God. So I would guess we are working from different axioms.
post #146 of 157
(
Quote:
All of the ten commandments except for the commandment to keep the sabbath holy appear in the New Testament, so I follow them. So in the New Testament its really the nine commandments )
I know this thread is not about commandments, but I have to say this isn't accurate. There was always 10 commandments and never did Jesus say to discontinue to keep the holy day. Actually Christians not keeping the holy day I believe is a big misconception of who Christ was.
post #147 of 157
[
Quote:
QUOTE=DaryLLL]Well, you left the apostrophe out of the word "its" and yet, I will not say I don't get a clear idea of your point.

I get your insistence on Hebrew as the only possible language to read the Bible in. It seems a bit exclusionary to me. Should no non-Greek speaking Christian read her English or French Bible bc even the NRSV is hopelessly inaccurate? Is this an ideal world? How do we have any hope ofunderstanding each others' cultures if we don't strive for accurate translations of books? Hebrew scholars worked hard to translate their scriptures into English for those that don't speak Hebrew.

I have to say I do agree with this point. God had spread out the Jews all over the world, and many of them didn't have the privilege of learning Hebrew...anti-semitism in former Soviet Union alone would not allow to do it easily. So to say that the only way to learn Torah is in Hebrew is very exclusionary and really not beneficial, almost selfish I must say.
post #148 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax
[


I have to say I do agree with this point. God had spread out the Jews all over the world, and many of them didn't have the privilege of learning Hebrew...anti-semitism in former Soviet Union alone would not allow to do it easily. So to say that the only way to learn Torah is in Hebrew is very exclusionary and really not beneficial, almost selfish I must say.
Selfish? Its just a fact. A translation is a poor substitute for the real thing. I never said one cannot be a jew without knowing hebrew, or participate in the religion and almost every aspect of religious life, but full participation can be lacking if one has access only to a poor substitute in place of the real thing. Lashon hakodesh is not just a language to us. Obviously if through life circumstances somone only has a poor substitute available to them then Hashem wants them to use that. Intellectual honesty on their part (Is that really what they are limited to?) is important. We believes stronly in trying to do your best. Noone is saying there is any "punishment" for not learning in lashon hakodesh, this came up because people were talking about studying the txt as an intellectual pursuit. That should only be done in the original. Full jewish life includes study- in the original. I think torah judaism kind of views studying with translations like NFL philosophy views formula feeding. If there is no other way better formula than starvation but breastmilk is always best. Formula is an incomplete substitution. Is that attitude "selfish" or just a fact?

HTH
post #149 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird
Tell me what are totafote?


...What does the word mean? And don't tell me the P word that also does not mean anything in english.
the "P word?" It means this in English:

1. Judaism. Either of two small leather boxes, each containing strips of parchment inscribed with quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures, one of which is strapped to the forehead and the other to the left arm; traditionally worn by Jewish men during morning worship, except on the Sabbath and holidays.
2.
1. An amulet.
2. A reminder.

phylactery:from Greek phulakterion, guard's post, safeguard, phylactery, from phulaktr, guard, from phulax, phulak-.


Quote:
The only instance of the name "phylacteries" in Biblical times occurs in the New Testament (Matthew xxiii. 5), whence it has passed into the languages of Europe. In rabbinic literature it is not found even as a foreign word. The Septuagint renders "ṭoṭafot" (A. V. and R. V. "frontlets"; Ex. xiii. 16 and Deut. vi. 8) by ἀσαλευτόν (= "something immovable"); nor do Aquila and Symmachus use the word "phylacteries." The Targumim and the Peshita use "tefillin" or "ṭoṭafot".

The terms "tefillah," "tefillin" only are found in Talmudic literature, although the word "ṭoṭafah" was still current, being used with the meaning of "frontlet" (Shab. vi. 1). The conclusions in regard to the tefillin which are based on its current name "phylacteries," therefore, lack historical basis, since this name was not used in truly Jewish circles.
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Tefillin


Does that answer your question? Does this address your concern about the inherent inaccuracy of translations?
post #150 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird
Selfish? Its just a fact. A translation is a poor substitute for the real thing. I never said one cannot be a jew without knowing hebrew, or participate in the religion and almost every aspect of religious life, but full participation can be lacking if one has access only to a poor substitute in place of the real thing. Lashon hakodesh is not just a language to us. Obviously if through life circumstances somone only has a poor substitute available to them then Hashem wants them to use that. Intellectual honesty on their part (Is that really what they are limited to?) is important. We believes stronly in trying to do your best. Noone is saying there is any "punishment" for not learning in lashon hakodesh, this came up because people were talking about studying the txt as an intellectual pursuit. That should only be done in the original. Full jewish life includes study- in the original. I think torah judaism kind of views studying with translations like NFL philosophy views formula feeding. If there is no other way better formula than starvation but breastmilk is always best. Formula is an incomplete substitution. Is that attitude "selfish" or just a fact?

HTH
OK, I understand what you mean.
Initially what I thought you were saying and also in your PM that if you don't know Hebrew then you are pretty much screwed, however, it's clear that it's not what you are saying and I apologize.

But I still have so many questions!!!!

Like for example:hypothetically you are holding a Hebrew Torah right now, how do you know for sure that the organization that published that Torah, the person who wrote it didn't do a tweaking of his own??? How do you know that tweaking wasn't done to fit their own ideas? I mean, it's not like you are holding original texts in your hands.

Furthermore...Torah is a complicated reading, so we have to admit that even in Hebrew, you would rely on rabbinic views and interpretations of what's written, or no??? So, basically don't we all rely on interpretation of some kind?

If you would like to discuss this further, you can respond on the other post about Scripture Translations started by Calm...
post #151 of 157
Very interesting thread I need to revive it in hopes of hearing a response to msholly's question from earlier which was not addressed. I have asked it numerous times in these discussions and have never heard a logical response. I'm eagerly anticipating a break in the silence that tends to follow this very valid point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mshollyk
these generalizations about gender...how do you view them in light of transgender and transsexual people who undergo hormone replacement therapy? how do you think that affects people? or anyone else who has an imbalance of either estrogen or testosterone--both of which can be adjusted through hormone therapy? if you know anyone who's gone through either puberty or menopause, then you know that hormones are very powerful and influential things...and as far as i'm concerned, lead to question what makes a man a man? or a woman a woman? is it hormones? is it ovaries? breasts? testes? what happens when those have to be removed because of cancerous growth or whatever?
post #152 of 157
:
post #153 of 157
I have removed several recent posts that were very off-topic and potentially offensive to members of our community. I will be reviewing this as soon as I can.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any concerns rather than posting directly to the thread.
post #154 of 157
Still waiting

I think a definition of the "two genders" is pretty paramount to the discussion.
post #155 of 157
yes, i'm still waiting also :
post #156 of 157
Well, Ms Holly, I guess it's up to you and me then.
The reason why intersex, transsexual, and transgendered people are not taken into account by people who take an approach to interpreting the bible in a way that strictly subjugates women's rights to take leadership roles, is that the bible does not mention them. The mainsteam western definition of the two genders is a purely social idea. There are more than two genders. Therefore, to interpret the bible as a manual on "wifely submission" is a falacious one at best. At worst (and more likely) it is an obvious and, to me, transpsarent method for the stereotypical male to maintain his footing and control over the rest of humanity. When taken in that context, and applied to the rules of christianity (I was raised in a strict catholic home), the men who rule the church and the roost would be committing the sin of being prideful (according to the doctrine with which I was raised which says that Pride is one of the seven deadly sins). And thus, enabling them to do so, we would be guilty as well.
post #157 of 157
In light of recently removed posts, I felt the need to further clarify:

In the realm of discussing a subject in Religious Studies, it is reasonable to state "The XYZ church regards abc to be a sin." It is a statement of fact. Personal feelings or opinions about whether something is "sinful" can be perceived judgemental, so please be sure to frame any discussion of "sin" within a religious or spiritual framework.

Please take a moment to review the Religious Studies Forum Guidelines:

Quote:
The Religious Studies forum is for the academic discussion of religious and spiritual matters. This is where the tough questions may be asked. Please do not take it personally when someone questions your own particular faith or belief system or posts an interpretation or opinion that does not support your belief. Questions and their discussion are not to be construed as being judgemental, but should rather be seen as an honest plea for a deeper understanding.

The MDC User Agreement still applies and members posting here will be expected to uphold their discussion with the utmost respect and consideration for participants and readers. Personal attacks will not be tolerated nor comments that are negative of an individual or group. If you feel someone has broken any rules, please contact a moderator immediately rather than replying to the thread in question. Please refrain from sarcasm and insulting or denigrating remarks that might negate the purpose of this forum. Those who cannot abide by these guidelines will not be permitted to post here.
Please feel free PM me if you have any questions or concerns rather than posting to this thread. Thanks
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Religious Studies
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Talk Amongst Ourselves › Spirituality › Religious Studies › God made men leaders