Juice Plus? - Page 6

[Brenda Damachuk]

To Granolamomma and BWife: Fair enough. apologies to all if it seemed snarky. I was struck by the coincidence but perhaps it did not warrant mentioning.

[Brenda Damachuk]

Originally Posted by Annikate

NSA? Is this the NSA that is the Juice Plus company? Did NSA develop Tang back then and tout it as a *vitamin*? Is it really the same NSA that's putting out JP? I'm interested to know.

Yes, NSA markets JP but no, they did not develop Tang (Tang was developed by General Foods and first marketed in 1959, according to Wikipedia). I was just drawing an analogy because Tang consisted of fruit-flavored crystals spiked with vitamins (and a ton of sugar), and it was marketed as the official drink of the US astronauts during the Apollo days. When I was a kid, people were really impressed by the marketing and many no doubt thought of Tang as being pretty darn close to “health food”…nutritional awareness back then wasn’t quite at the level it is today.

[Brenda Damachuk]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

But...there is such a thing as the placebo effect, which could very well explain Juice Plus's effectiveness for some people even if it scientifically or nutritionally "shouldn't" work. For those people it makes sense to continue taking it even if they have no idea how or why it is helping.

Caedmyn, the point you raised about JP acting as a placebo is very interesting. There is no doubt that JP marketing attempts to create, in essence, a placebo effect by strongly reinforcing unquestioning groupthink among distributors. NSA also recommends numerous follow-up phone calls and emails/letters to each customer after their initial purchase, with each precisely scripted contact geared towards reinforcing the health effects that the customer “should” be feeling while on JP.

If JP is an inert placebo then it would be unethical and illegal for anyone to promote it as a cure for anything. That would qualify it as snake oil -- essentially an inert product falsely represented, with messianic enthusiasm and lots of glowing testimonials, as a cure-all. And placebos should be dirt cheap but JP costs $500 or more per year.

The possibility that JP has a placebo effect seems unlikely because (a) there is no reliable evidence that JP improves health outcomes or offers any clinical benefits, and (b) there is actually experimental evidence that JP does not improve health outcomes (i.e. the NSA-sponsored double-blind, placebo-controlled study by Nantz published in 2006). Most of the health claims about JP seem to come from anonymous sources on the internet or people who sell the product, neither of which are reliable. If JP did have effects on disease outcomes that were being observed consistently by impartial health professionals, then these instances could easily be published in medical journals as well-documented case reports. But so far, the only knowledgeable and impartial sources that have commented on JP have been extremely critical.

It’s also important to consider how testimonials can distort the perception of benefits. People who take JP and do not see improvements have little motivation to share their experiences, but for the small percentage of vocal distributors who seem to be making many of these health claims, there is a very clear financial motive. But JP obviously would not be a worthwhile investment for the average person if it had an effect in 1 out of 100 cases or if it routinely caused side effects. Second, even when someone honestly tells us that their disease or symptoms improved when they took JP, how do we know the true cause? Somebody knowledgeable and impartial would have to document these cases and look at medical histories, test results, absence of other plausible explanations, etc. That has never happened in the 10+ years JP has been on the market. There is also obviously a strong financial motive for someone who has a financial interest in JP to exaggerate or even lie about its benefits.

Let’s also consider one last thing about placebos. Placebo effects, by and large, act on factors that are subjective, like pain, energy levels, comfort, etc. So a placebo effect might cause someone to report feeling less pain or more energy, but placebo effects won't make tumors disappear, prevent birth defects, or repair arthritic bones, and these are the types of claims that are being made about JP. If JPs only value is as a placebo, it should not be promoted as a cure-all for diseases or offered as an all-purpose supplement for kids and pregnant women. I also see no value in haiving a brigade of misinformed and financially motivated faith healers administering questionable advice and exorbitantly priced placebos to those who are ailing and in genuine need of help.

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Also, the symptoms of detoxing/die-off and of reacting to something unfortunately tend to be the same or very similar, so in all fairness to Juice Plus, if people's "detox" symptoms with Juice Plus tend to be followed by positive health changes, I don't think they are out-of-line in referring to them as detox symptoms and not side-effects.

The detox story gets pretty muddy if we choose to believe that JP acts by a placebo effect. Would the explanation then be that JP causes a placebo-induced detoxifying effect? That’s seems pretty implausible.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by Brenda Damachuk

Let’s also consider one last thing about placebos. Placebo effects, by and large, act on factors that are subjective, like pain, energy levels, comfort, etc. So a placebo effect might cause someone to report feeling less pain or more energy, but placebo effects won't make tumors disappear, prevent birth defects, or repair arthritic bones, and these are the types of claims that are being made about JP. If JPs only value is as a placebo, it should not be promoted as a cure-all for diseases or offered as an all-purpose supplement for kids and pregnant women. I also see no value in haiving a brigade of misinformed and financially motivated faith healers administering questionable advice and exorbitantly priced placebos to those who are ailing and in genuine need of help.



The detox story gets pretty muddy if we choose to believe that JP acts by a placebo effect. Would the explanation then be that JP causes a placebo-induced detoxifying effect? That’s seems pretty implausible.

That's not true that placebo effect only affects things that are subjective--read Andrew Weil's book (sorry I can't remember which one...it might be called Health and Healing or something like that).

I'm not saying it has a placebo effect on everyone, but for those people on whom it could/does, it is worth it to them to pay for it. Obviously it's not a good idea for NSA to be marketing Juice Plus if it doesn't truly do anything for the majority of people...but then, what do most vitamins do for people, anyway (the ones that come in a bottle). It's not any more unethical for NSA to market their product that it is for anyone else...just more expensive!

And I do think it is possible for there to be a placebo-induced detoxifying effect. I think it's also possible that Juice Plus really does do something, at least some of the time, no matter how improbable that may seem.

[Valkyrie9]

This is a great thread--I was just invited to a JP party (or whatever you call it) and came up with Barrett's article through a Google search. I didn't realize he was such an unreliable source. Anyway, one of the things he mentioned and that I haven't seen referenced here was that JP has extremely high levels of beta carotene, which has been shown to have a damaging effect on DNA and can lead to cancer. Any thoughts on that one or more research to back it up?

After reading that, I was shocked and dismayed to find that Dr. Sears was recommending it. I bring this all up because if the stuff about high levels of beta carotene isn't true, it would redeem Sears a bit for me. TIA!

[granolamomma]

Originally Posted by Brenda Damachuk

To Granolamomma and BWife: Fair enough. apologies to all if it seemed snarky. I was struck by the coincidence but perhaps it did not warrant mentioning.

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

This is a great thread--I was just invited to a JP party (or whatever you call it) and came up with Barrett's article through a Google search. I didn't realize he was such an unreliable source. Anyway, one of the things he mentioned and that I haven't seen referenced here was that JP has extremely high levels of beta carotene, which has been shown to have a damaging effect on DNA and can lead to cancer. Any thoughts on that one or more research to back it up?

After reading that, I was shocked and dismayed to find that Dr. Sears was recommending it. I bring this all up because if the stuff about high levels of beta carotene isn't true, it would redeem Sears a bit for me. TIA!

Yeah, I thought the same thing about Dr. Sears. But then I remembered that I am against vaccines in general, but he is ok with a selectively delayed schedule. So, I think he's still a great doctor, I just feel differently for my family, kwim?

And I think maybe the whole beta carotene thing was discussed really intensively a few pages back (but I could be thinking of some other vitamin - I haven't reread). All I know is that as strongly as I feel about vaccines, it doesn't compare to my utter loathing of Barrett. So if I had to pick an expert here, I'd go with the Sears everyday and twice on Sunday.

Just my even-tempered 2 cents.

[Brenda Damachuk]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

This is a great thread--I was just invited to a JP party (or whatever you call it) and came up with Barrett's article through a Google search. I didn't realize he was such an unreliable source. Anyway, one of the things he mentioned and that I haven't seen referenced here was that JP has extremely high levels of beta carotene, which has been shown to have a damaging effect on DNA and can lead to cancer. Any thoughts on that one or more research to back it up?

The basic JP regimen provides 2.6 times the recommended daily intake of beta-carotene but many customers are also advised to take additional JP supplements, like Vineyard blend, and sometimes to double or triple their dose. The gummies provide kids with more than 5 times the recommended beta-carotene intake for adults. There have been several studies to show that beta-carotene supplementation can increase the rates of certain cancers, for example in cigarette smokers (J Natl Cancer Inst. 2004;96:1743-50). NSA indirectly refers to such data as the reason why isolated vitamins are bad for us, and yet their product contains isolated vitamins.

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

After reading that, I was shocked and dismayed to find that Dr. Sears was recommending it. I bring this all up because if the stuff about high levels of beta carotene isn't true, it would redeem Sears a bit for me. TIA!

It is true...so no redemption for Sears. He's going to hell instead! Sears was only too happy to profit from his recommendation that JP gummies are a nutritional alternative to fruits and vegetables for kids, which landed him in hot water with the Better Business Bureau.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/p...-106/index.htm

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Obviously it's not a good idea for NSA to be marketing Juice Plus if it doesn't truly do anything for the majority of people...but then, what do most vitamins do for people, anyway (the ones that come in a bottle). It's not any more unethical for NSA to market their product that it is for anyone else...just more expensive!

I disagree. A big difference is that the vast majority of multivitamin supplement makers only claim that their products provide nutrients, they don’t claim that it can cure cancer or other diseases. NSAs selling of inert placebos at a ridiculously high price to cancer patients clearly crosses the ethical (and legal) line. Is it really so too much to ask that those who sell JP use a modicum of honesty and integrity, or at least respect the law?

Originally Posted by granolamomma

So if I had to pick an expert here, I'd go with the Sears everyday and twice on Sunday.

This isn't a batlle between the reputations of Barrett vs. Sears? Sears' opponents on this issue include Memorial Sloan-Kettering, University of California Berkeley, Moore Cancer Center/University of California San Diego, the Better Business Bureau, various other experts, and commonsense.

[Panserbjorne]

While I haven't spent nearly the amount of time that Brenda has researching this, from the reading I have done I have to say that I am in total agreement. To me the company appeared unethical (and remember here, I *used* to sell JP until I realized I was getting the runaround with every real question I asked.) I disagree with Sears on many things, but it isn't at all about Sears vs. Barrett. As Brenda said there have been major studies published refuting JP's claims. It is interesting how hard they push their products. I don't see many other supplement companies going to that extreme.

[Taradactyl3]

Kind of OT but....My DH was raised on tang instead of formula. His mom choose not to BF and when DH had a bad reaction to the formula her PED suggested Tang. Can you believe that they gave him tang in bottles as a baby!?!?! I know it was the 70's but it still seems insane to think that is ok. Luckily it didn't do much damage that we know of.

T

[BWife]

Originally Posted by firefaery

It is interesting how hard they push their products. I don't see many other supplement companies going to that extreme.

Wow, you must not live where I do! I have people all the time recommending Pharmanex, Herbal Life, Nature's Sunshine, Body Balance, Mona Vie, Gogi Juice, Noni Juice, and more, and I have tried many of them. In my experience many of them are much more pushy than the Juice Plus distributor I deal with. I realize there is a question as to the validity of the research, etc., but there is no research on the above either, yet they are claiming miracles from it all, so I say let's all just decide what we want to take for ourselves and let it rest. Everyone choose what they want to take and then go from there...........................

And I went to a presentation in a home for Juice Plus and found it very interesting. They even played a DVD from Dr. Sears, something on healthy steps, and 8 of those steps were on healthy eating tips and the last one was Juice Plus. I was already taking Juice Plus, but I actually learned some neat stuff when I went. I don't see the harm in going...........

[Brenda Damachuk]

Originally Posted by BWife

I realize there is a question as to the validity of the research, etc., but there is no research on the above either, yet they are claiming miracles from it all, so I say let's all just decide what we want to take for ourselves and let it rest. Everyone choose what they want to take and then go from there”

Better still, why don’t we just acknowledge that any company that claims miraculous cures in the absence of evidence (or in the face of contradictory evidence) is dishonest, unethical, and violating the law …and then go from there.

[Annikate]

Originally Posted by Brenda Damachuk

Better still, why don’t we just acknowledge that any company that claims miraculous cures in the absence of evidence (or in the face of contradictory evidence) is dishonest, unethical, and violating the law …and then go from there.

FWIW the distributors I know (2) are always careful to say that JP does *not* claim to cure anything. I don't think their dist's are encouraged to make false claims.

Firefaery, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sydnee]

Wow! So much info here, thanks for all the links, I am very interested in this stuff, but hadn't really looked into it yet. I do think, however, that we can go on and on about how much we love/hate it,(*it* being JP ) but ultimately we all make decisions that are best for our families, kwim? We all have very differing opinions, and that's what makes MDC so great!!

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by Annikate

FWIW the distributors I know (2) are always careful to say that JP does *not* claim to cure anything. I don't think their dist's are encouraged to make false claims.

Firefaery, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

It's a slippery slope. I was "urged" to get my mother taking it because she has leukemia and JP just does wonders for cancer patients-improving their outcomes etc. etc. etc. That was the beginning of the end for me. I don't think their dist are encouraged to make false claims, but they are urged to regurgitate the company's propoganda. Alot of which is false. Slipperly slope.

Wow-I sure don't get solicited by other companies like that! I wouldn't mind the goji and noni juices because they are at least unprocessed derivatives of actual foods extracted from the berries. They are superfoods. Other formulations I would not be keen on at all. The interesting thing about JP is how many health care providers have jumped on board given that it is a MLM. I wouldn't expect my chiro/ND/MD/FCP etc. to be a part of that. It's all very weird. Most products stocked by practitioners are simply the best of the best as far as they are concerned. Not a pyramid type deal. Strange.

[Annikate]

Originally Posted by firefaery

The interesting thing about JP is how many health care providers have jumped on board given that it is a MLM. I wouldn't expect my chiro/ND/MD/FCP etc. to be a part of that. It's all very weird. Most products stocked by practitioners are simply the best of the best as far as they are concerned. Not a pyramid type deal. Strange.

Yep, same w/ the Waiora products.

[Panserbjorne]

That's true. It weirds me out. To be fair I have never heard of someone having Waoira products sold to them around here. I know people have had it suggested but for me the dif is that you can idependantly go and buy NCD without a dist. Yes, you can become one (and I did just to buy it at a disc.) but Waoira isn't a hard sell thing-at least not IME. I had suggested by a third party with no stakes in it. I reasearched and went and bought it. It feels very different because I wasn't being "sold", YK? But who knows, JP's been around for awhile so maybe Waoira is on the same path.

What I CAN say is that I saw a differnce on NCD that nobody could deny because it was very physical (the detox) and nothing in the months and months I took JP-but that's just a personal account. I don't regret buying NCD. I am sad at the $ I spent on JP.

[Annikate]

Originally Posted by firefaery

That's true. It weirds me out. To be fair I have never heard of someone having Waoira products sold to them around here. I know people have had it suggested but for me the dif is that you can idependantly go and buy NCD without a dist. Yes, you can become one (and I did just to buy it at a disc.) but Waoira isn't a hard sell thing-at least not IME. I had suggested by a third party with no stakes in it. I reasearched and went and bought it. It feels very different because I wasn't being "sold", YK? But who knows, JP's been around for awhile so maybe Waoira is on the same path.

What I CAN say is that I saw a differnce on NCD that nobody could deny because it was very physical (the detox) and nothing in the months and months I took JP-but that's just a personal account. I don't regret buying NCD. I am sad at the $ I spent on JP.

True, and I agree about the NCD.

[granolamomma]

OT clarification

Whoops, I must have misrepresented myself. I don't think Sears and Barrett are the end-all experts here. I think I was just trying to give an example of how much I discredit anything that is sourced from Barrett - that I'd pick a source that I disagree with strongly (i.e., Sears and vaccines) just because they are not Barrett.

Really, it was me complicating a simple anti-Barrett sentence.

Carry on with the discussion - great info everyone!

[chellemarie]

Originally Posted by firefaery

It's a slippery slope. I was "urged" to get my mother taking it because she has leukemia and JP just does wonders for cancer patients-improving their outcomes etc. etc. etc. That was the beginning of the end for me. I don't think their dist are encouraged to make false claims, but they are urged to regurgitate the company's propoganda. Alot of which is false. Slipperly slope.

My former distributor didn't necessarily tell me that "This cures cancer." or "This is the answer to Crohn's." She (and her mentor/recruiter) said things like this:

"Do you see this Happy Meal? I have had this bag for five years. Look at the fries! They're not rotting! They look just like they did when I bought them. Isn't that amazing? Can you imagine what they put in the fries that keep them looking this way? Why would we put this in our bodies when we can eat fresh, colorful fruits and vegetables. Juice Plus has seventeen fruits and veggies..."

That's not a straight line. But it sounds good.

"This packet of sugar equals X grams of sugar. This soda has Y grams of sugar. That is (dramatic unrolling of a line of sugar packets) THIS many packets of sugar. You're drinking all that sugar every time you have this soda."

So I should buy dehydrated produce pills? No. I shouldn't drink the soda. But look! She can convert ingredient lists into an actual number of sugar packets. This lady knows her business. I should buy her product. And I did.

I've also heard, "Another distributor knows this gal who diagnosed with cancer. She made the decision to change her lifestyle and started eating fresh, organic foods and eliminated all the junk from her diet. She's taking Juice Plus and now she's in remission. No more cancer."

Huh.

And..."I heard about this little girl. She has XYZ health concerns. I want to talk to her parents because I think it is just so important for her to get the nutrition ...I think Juice Plus can help her."

But if it is what it says it is, it's fruits and veggies, right? Why aren't you taking her a salad and a fruit basket? It just seems weird. We all want to believe that this pill is the key. This is easy! Two pills in the morning, two pills at night, all done! That'll be forty bucks, please.

[Annikate]

Originally Posted by chellemarie

My former distributor didn't necessarily tell me that "This cures cancer." or "This is the answer to Crohn's." She (and her mentor/recruiter) said things like this:

"Do you see this Happy Meal? I have had this bag for five years. Look at the fries! They're not rotting! They look just like they did when I bought them. Isn't that amazing? Can you imagine what they put in the fries that keep them looking this way? Why would we put this in our bodies when we can eat fresh, colorful fruits and vegetables. Juice Plus has seventeen fruits and veggies..."

That's not a straight line. But it sounds good.

"This packet of sugar equals X grams of sugar. This soda has Y grams of sugar. That is (dramatic unrolling of a line of sugar packets) THIS many packets of sugar. You're drinking all that sugar every time you have this soda."

So I should buy dehydrated produce pills? No. I shouldn't drink the soda. But look! She can convert ingredient lists into an actual number of sugar packets. This lady knows her business. I should buy her product. And I did.

I've also heard, "Another distributor knows this gal who diagnosed with cancer. She made the decision to change her lifestyle and started eating fresh, organic foods and eliminated all the junk from her diet. She's taking Juice Plus and now she's in remission. No more cancer."

Huh.

And..."I heard about this little girl. She has XYZ health concerns. I want to talk to her parents because I think it is just so important for her to get the nutrition ...I think Juice Plus can help her."

But if it is what it says it is, it's fruits and veggies, right? Why aren't you taking her a salad and a fruit basket? It just seems weird. We all want to believe that this pill is the key. This is easy! Two pills in the morning, two pills at night, all done! That'll be forty bucks, please.

I'm not either for or against JP (yet) but this just made me .

Very well put.