need help with my mom

[jrayn]

I am visiting my mom and I know I know many people ask for help to convince their parents or whomever about the "radical" ways we raise our children, but here I am asking for some help with it, it is possible to get her to change her mind about things, I just can't find the words to do it.

She is having issues with me not providing a punishment or a consequence when my daughter does something she has told her not to do an uncountable number of times now, for example, she has these squishy pillows with a delicate cover on them, my daughter likes to bite them, she has told her no a few times today and has put them up but gets them out to use when sitting on the couch and when she gets up my daughter actually took the pillow to where my mom went and bit it in frount of her, also we were discussing her hitting and my daughter started hitting mom and me, I said, she is showing us she understands what the word hitting means by hitting us, I told my dd to be gentle and showed her but she continued to hit.

Mainly my mom wants me to explain how my method will show my daughter consequenses, I did expain that some consequences are natural, but I can't seem to explain how my method is better I guess, in comparison with say putting my daughter in time out,
I need help debating
Just thought of the main point she made that confused me, she said that when we grow up we are faced with consequences, we break the law we go to jail etc, so I need to give her consequences for her wrong actions... a type of punishment, time outs, hitting, something

[alegna]

how old is your dd? I think that young toddlers are just too young to "punish" at all. They just don't have the self control to stop themselves (sounds like your situation.)

REAL consequences are- grandma is sad that you're biting her pillow.

-Angela

[velcromom]

I agree with the pp. To expect a young toddler to have both forethought and self control is not at all realistic. I mean come on, I know adults who don't have those capabilities!!

And mom needs to put the pillows away til your visit is over if it bugs her so much. It's ironic that she's not getting the idea that the consequence for leaving the pillows out is that they will be bitten, lol.

Consequences only have an effect if the receiver is capable of foreseeing what might happen in a given situation. Your mom has unrealistic expectations.

[Suzetta]

Have you read UP? All of your questions are addressed there...maybe you could brush up on it, and just rephrase it for your mom.

Bottom line, however, is that you choose to raise your dc your way, and are prepared to deal with the 'consequences' that might arise from your methods as she grows older.

[jrayn]

I just needed some points to give to her while I was here, she seems to think my daughter is intellegent enough to understand "no" and she ignores this word, it actually seems to encourage her. She is 18 mnths old, she has an amazing memory, but I agree she shouldn't and doesn't have self control but mom is telling me that I have to teach her right fm wrong etc??? oh well, she doesn't give me too hard of a time.

[LynnS6]

Well, first, I'd try to get grandma to stop saying 'no' and instead tell your daughter what TO DO with the pillow. (OK, I'm at a loss here what else do you do with a fancy pillow? Sit on the pillow, hold it in your hands?).

And personally, I get up and leave if my children get too rough. The consequence is that "I play with you when you are gentle." I don't leave for long, just long enough to interrupt it (at least at this age) or I suggest another game (for kids who are older).

So, you can say "I'm teaching her what TO DO rather than simply punishing her. That way she'll know what to expect.

Then I would tell her that an 18 month old DOES understand 'no' (she's right in that), BUT that they don't have the impulse control to STOP once they've started. So, until she develops that (age 3-4), my goal is to keep the house as toddler-proofed as possible, and teach her what TO DO with the things that are out.

What exactly does your mom mean when she says 'you need to teach her right from wrong'? How is teaching her what to do not teaching her what's right? And can't she find something else to put behind her on the couch until you leave? My mom is very particular about her furniture. She covers it in sheets when we come to visit. fine by me!

[rmzbm]

If you WANT to explain things to her, cool. But, personally, I wouldn't even get into it beyond "this is what I'm doing." You're the mama.

[jrayn]

She has put the pillows up, the are just squishy soft pillows w/ a thin covering on them, not fancy but comfy for a hurting back

I wish I could remember her exact words b/c it left me speechless, I love debating and was out of words before I could even start, now it has been a few days and I really forgot what she said but it was mainly that if I don't provide a punishment, what is to stop my dd from running all over me, what would I do if she punched me in the face and cursed me out when she becomes a teen b/c I never taught her consequences, punishments etc.

Which made me think of a friend who has a 2 sons and one son is 7 or 8 and she hasn't spanked, she has done relaxed time outs though, mainly that and lots of explaining and he acts like he doesn't care what his actions will cause, for example, one day he was stacking large pieces of wood in a single pile, I said to him, "that could fall on one of the 3 babies that are running around over here and hurt them really bad could you make that into small piles instead? He completely ignored me, said no he can't.
One day he threw flippers at my head w/ my dd in arms nearly hitting her in the face, he said he was aiming for the ground but that is over 5 feet away, and his mom will tell him that isn't nice, apologize etc, and that is it and many people talk behind her back about how out of hand he is.

[faithnj]

Originally Posted by jrayn

......Which made me think of a friend who has a 2 sons and one son is 7 or 8 and she hasn't spanked, she has done relaxed time outs though, mainly that and lots of explaining and he acts like he doesn't care what his actions will cause, for example, one day he was stacking large pieces of wood in a single pile, I said to him, "that could fall on one of the 3 babies that are running around over here and hurt them really bad could you make that into small piles instead? He completely ignored me, said no he can't.
One day he threw flippers at my head w/ my dd in arms nearly hitting her in the face, he said he was aiming for the ground but that is over 5 feet away, and his mom will tell him that isn't nice, apologize etc, and that is it and many people talk behind her back about how out of hand he is.

And my question is, are your friend's results okay with you? Or are they not???? I'm sure you've heard people say that doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting different results, is the definition of insanity, right? Well, there you have it for your own eyes. I feel sorry for that little boy.

Surely your mom has already seen this story played out a few times. She sounds respectful, just questioning sometimes. And how could she not be? Surely she's seen more than a few kids raised. While you, as the mama, have the right to make your own mistakes, there will be times when she's going to be right thanks to prior experiences. (And since I have an 18 month old, somehow I suspect she might be right when she says your DD can learn to understand and follow through on the word "no." I sure know my DD can do it...it just takes her a while to think about what I'm saying before I get the proper reaction.) Maybe she just wants to know you've done your homework, and that you aren't building castles in the sky, while neglecting to lay your foundation? Sounds to me like she doesn't want you to be discouraged or scared, just observant, educated and prepared.

But that's just my opinion. Think about it. Only you and your mom can really know the answer to some of these questions.

Faith

[runes]

i tell people that i like to do things the 'hard' way and don't look for an easy way out.

it's more difficult in a sense to develop a respectful relationship with your child and to utilize gd/up techniques. quite frankly, i think spanking is the ultimate in lazy parenting. as for time outs, (besides the fact that i don't agree with them) most people have no idea how to use them. it takes a lot more patience and self-reflection to parent gently.

and there is a world of difference between gd and, for a lack of a better term, non-discipline as is going on in your friend's family.

i hope that you are able to have a fruitful discussion with your mother and she is able to understand a bit. perhaps she might be interested to receive a copy of UP for her next birthday...

[nikirj]

Jrayn, I remember you from the Dec '04 thread .

Your daughter looked older than she is if I remember from the pictures and this in particular, IMO, throws grandparents off. They have this picture in their head and your DD is not conforming to it.

Naomi is 18 months as well and she is punished for nothing. This is just too young. I can remove her from situations, I can remove things from her, and I can distract her. In the pillow situation, I would have told her that we can't bite the pillows, moved them someplace out of her immediate surroundings but still accessible to her, and distracted her. If she continually bit the pillows they'd be packed away for a bit. Life just gets too stressful if the kids are continually presented with a situation they can't handle yet.

You cannot punish an 18 month old because the point is totally lost on them. It essentially is making more work for you without creating a return on it. If over time it works, it is only because the child grew into that understanding level, which would have happened eventually anyway.

I've got a pretty verbal 18 month old and it is still beyond my comprehension how anyone can expect them to understand that having to sit in one spot is the consequence of biting a pillow.

[nikirj]

I for some reason thought you were at your own house, not at your mom's : sorry about that. I would probably try to remove the pillows from her reach if this is an ongoing problem anyway.

In terms of your friend's kid, it appears he has been given very little guidance. Reassure your mom that you intend to provide guidance and direction for your child, but would like to do so when it will be appropriate. Grandparents are IMO much more amenable to the results of GD than they are to the philosophy itself. Just let her know that you're going to be making sure she understands the rules when she is old enough to understand them. Which will be true. You just won't be doing it the way she expects.

[hipumpkins]

I think Grandma needs the pillows, though for her back. When your Dd bites them remove her from the pillows and tell her, "granmas back hurts. These help her. Can you help grandma put the pillow behind her back?" This is what the pillows are for" Than help her help grandma
Anyway...consequences do take place in GD most people use natural ones so grandma is now sad or somehitng would be good. Than also maybe give her somehting else to bite.

[jrayn]

she did remove the pillows for the remainder of the stay without me even suggesting this although it was what I was thinking, there were other things that were not able to be removed, gliding drawers, very fun to open and hang on by the way, the tv of course is fun to turn on and off etc. This is an issue at home, I must invent a cover for the buttons on tvs and dvd players!

We never had another conversation about discipline but I did leave a document of things I compiled about gd, hopefully she will open it. I still have much to learn, including ways to manage my anger.

Thanks for the advice

[Proudly AP]

sorry, i haven't read all of the replies...
but a comment i have to your mother's argument about jail being a consequence later in life for various behaviours...

'yes, mom, that's true, but we all know how far short the penal system falls in trying to convince people not to repeat their offences.' putting them in 'time out' (jail) usually doesn't do anything to teach them functional ways to deal with their issues.

i think alfie kohn speaks to this in UP.

[faithnj]

Originally Posted by jrayn

she did remove the pillows for the remainder of the stay without me even suggesting this although it was what I was thinking, there were other things that were not able to be removed, gliding drawers, very fun to open and hang on by the way, the tv of course is fun to turn on and off etc. This is an issue at home, I must invent a cover for the buttons on tvs and dvd players!

We never had another conversation about discipline but I did leave a document of things I compiled about gd, hopefully she will open it. I still have much to learn, including ways to manage my anger.

Thanks for the advice

Wow. See, I had a funny feeling your mom was understanding! You never present her as harsh, just concerned. I'm looking forward to hearing what she has to say about the literature you provided for her. I'm betting she'll totally get it. But don't expect her to agree with your interpretation of everything, or the timing-- she still may say that your daughter is able to understand more than she's being given credit for, for example. And the interpretations may be different in a few cases simply because people are people and will never see everything exactly inthe same way. (I know I see U.P. vastly different than a lot of people interpret A.K. here. Some days I wanna say, but did you read the part where he says he is NOT a moral relativist!?!?!)

As for covers for DVD and VCR players-- they have them. Check in the safety aisle of a Babies R Us. And as for your anger-- consider checking out Screamfree Parenting. I've read it. My DH is reading it. It's a really an eye opener, and it applies not just to parenting. (I don't scream at my DD anyway...yet.) I found the concepts great for marriage, work and just about anything else. You can even just check out the website to get a free glimpse of what it's all about.

Faith

Faith

[faithnj]

Originally Posted by hipumpkins

I think Grandma needs the pillows, though for her back. When your Dd bites them remove her from the pillows and tell her, "granmas back hurts. These help her. Can you help grandma put the pillow behind her back?" This is what the pillows are for" Than help her help grandma
Anyway...consequences do take place in GD most people use natural ones so grandma is now sad or somehitng would be good. Than also maybe give her somehting else to bite.

Great advice. This is not directed at the OP, but sometimes it almost feels as if some people think GD means you aren't supposed to teach your child anything. And others seem to think if they've told their child something once or twice, the the child has been "taught." I think the child will find that when she is repeatedly shown how to help grandma, she's going to find helping grandma a lot more fun and meaningful than biting the pillows. I know my dd looooves to help.

Faith