Putting dogs outside never okay?

[pjlioness]

So, I've been lurking a bit and reading threads about dog/puppy adoption. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though rescues/shelters are refusing to adopt out to people who would put their dogs outside on tie-outs to "go". Is this the case? I'm not planning on getting another dog anytime soon, but my family has always put our dogs out on cable leashes attached to cable runs to "go". We don't leave them out much longer than it takes for them to "go", and we do take them out with us to play, so I'm not sure I see the problem. When we lived in NYC, we walked our dog, but we now have a yard. Are we still supposed to walk the dogs when they have to go?

[thekimballs]

I guess my question would be why put them on a cable? Why not just walk them?

Cables are frowned upon because they tend to be just another version of tying or chaining out. Sure, you promise you'll only use it for five minutes at a time, but then you have a busy day, the dog is driving you nuts, company is coming, and you finally say heck with it, put the dog outside. The yard isn't fenced, so on the cable he goes. And sits. And maybe you don't do it again for a week, but then it happens again. And in a few months or years, you've got a cable/tie/chain-ruined dog, the kind who is dragged out to the tie-out and then starts throwing himself from side to side on the cable and acting like a nut. They get so collar-dead that they can't be walked safely and they end up being one more chain-wrecked dog.

So rescues, whose job it is to protect every dog, make a no cable rule. I have it too, in my puppy contract. I want that dog to have maximum human contact, including just those brief jaunts outside. I want a leash on and leash training or conditioning happening every day, multiple times. When a dog goes out to pee on a leash, it's a relationship session and a training session. When he gets cabled, it's nearly always a step backward.

[pjlioness]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

Sure, you promise you'll only use it for five minutes at a time, but then you have a busy day, the dog is driving you nuts, company is coming, and you finally say heck with it, put the dog outside. The yard isn't fenced, so on the cable he goes. And sits. And maybe you don't do it again for a week, but then it happens again.

I am not taking this personally, as I am sure it was not meant that way. I can honestly say that I have never put a dog outside to get hir out of the way, even if I was getting annoyed with the dog. (Never had a dog that had a problem with company, either, even the Great Dane we had when I was a kid, who was great with company.) In my family, pets are considered family members, and the most we might do is put them in a bedroom to give *them* a chance to rest. (The only pet we've really done this with is the parrot my folks now have who never had kids around with her previous people, and she can get obnoxiously loud around my kids when we visit, especially when it's close to her bedtime. When she gets too wound up, my folks roll her cage into their bedroom, and she goes right to sleep.)

I've mostly had dogs (growing up and now) who asked to come back in when they were done, and have made the effort to get them back in ASAP. We've had dogs who occasionally liked to hang out outside for a while, and have let them, but certainly not forced them to on a regular basis. When we're out with them, the dogs are leashed (sometimes on a tie-out) or loose (if they stay with us) and near/with us. If we were still training a puppy to potty outside, that puppy at the very least, was loved up when s/he pottied outside.

I honestly never realized there was anything wrong with cabling a dog in the limited way my family has always done. Apparently I might have to rethink it, though, especially if I ever want to adopt a dog or get a puppy from a breeder.

[mamamillet]

I think a tie out/cable run can be used responsibly by responsible owners, however I would say that most often it is used irresponsibly. Making a general rule about it weeds out those folks (hopefully) that just want a dog to be tied up out in their yard (and there are many of these people). I used a cable run for a brief period with my last dog at one rental house. The owner refused to let me put up a fence even if I paid for it and the house was on a busy street. Most often she was walked to do her business but occasionally she was on the cable run. Thankfully we were only at that house about three months and then I found a great house with a big, fenced in yard!

[thekimballs]

Yeah, I certainly didn't mean anything personal.

Even if the dog is only on the cable for a little while, it sends all the wrong signals vis a vis leash training. I want a dog who is always and consistently "soft" on the leash; never hits the end of it and is responsive and sensitive to the person on the other end. A cable or tie-out teaches the exact opposite--instead of controlling the dog as an entire body, using the eyes and nose and the way a dog normally thinks and senses things (which is the way a fence controls them), the cable controls the neck just like a leash. But it encourages the dog to think of the collar/leash as an expression of outer limits, and maximum freedom/reward is experienced when the leash is stretched to its utmost. That dog can't then be expected to stay close and respond gently to a leash and owner.

And I guess my original question still stands--if you're only using it for a few minutes and you're being so responsive to the dog's needs, then why aren't you just walking the dog? If you're cabling the dog and walking away, even for a few moments, the dog loses the human interaction and is open to the bad things that cables bring.

And I didn't mean that your dogs aren't good with company--I was talking about a stress level. I know that when I'm trying to get a salad made, clean the living room, keep kids from spilling the jello, and iron my clothes, I can't stand the dogs walking through the kitchen and nosing at things on the counters. I can personally handle it with crates and a fenced yard (though I generally walk the dogs to pee; the fenced yard is an insurance because my kids aren't strong enough to control the Danes if Something Really Bad happened, so we don't let them walk the dogs except behind the fence). If someone didn't have a fence but did have a cable, the temptation to put the dog on the cable would be almost overwhelming.

Anyway, that's my philosophical reason for no cables or tie-outs. I think they mess with dogs' heads, and, if the dog is left out for long periods (not saying that you would, just that people do), they're a hazard. There are just way too many stories of dogs hanging themselves, escaping because they slipped their collars, etc. for most puppy-placers (rescue, breeders) to be comfortable with them.

[Sailor]

I work with a rescue organization, and that is definitely one of our main rules - no tie outs, or cables. The dogs we adopt out - some of them have spent their WHOLE lives on a tie out. We're not about to put them into a situation where they have to be on one for even 2 seconds.

We also have a strict rule about fencing, if there is a yard, and no fence (and no plans to get one) we won't adopt out to that family. We will make exceptions for apartment dwellers, depending on the situation. And, also, we sometimes make exceptions if the home is located in the middle of nowhere on lots of land. But, only if those families are a truly perfect fit.

Why can't you just walk out with the dog to potty? I have always done that with mine (still do!). It doesn't really take that long.

[kittywitty]

I don't have a problem with tie outs if used right. I know there are a few people who put their dogs on them while they are outside grilling here in our neighborhood-duplexes, no fencing allowed. And the dogs do fine and they aren't left like that long. I know I have been thinking about doing this once in awhile with my puppy. She is hyperactive and likes to stay outside and dig for beetles in the yard (she's an odd one) for about 20 minutes before she'll go to the bathroom.

And with three kids here in the south where it's 100 and 100% humidity, sometimes it just sucks to be out there. But she would stay out there all day if she could. So I wouldn't mind for her letting her stay out on the leash (I can see her every move from my french doors in my living room) to chase beetles to her heart's content while I make sure the kids don't die of heat exhaustion.

SO I think that it depends on the circumstances. We plan on moving and getting a fenced yard as soon as we can so that she can have more outside time and so we can move somewhere colder!!!

[mom2tig99Nroo03]

i have no problems letting one of our pups go to a family that will use a cable responsibly- we have a fence now, but with the dogs we used to have , we tied him out when he was younger, he would do his business, and then scratch the door to let us know he was ready to come in. he hated the heat, so the summertime he was in and out very quickly, and in the wintertime, he woulda laid on the porch all day if it was up to him, but we always convinced him to come in after a few minutes...

[mom2tig99Nroo03]

Originally Posted by dnw826

I don't have a problem with tie outs if used right. I know there are a few people who put their dogs on them while they are outside grilling here in our neighborhood-duplexes, no fencing allowed. And the dogs do fine and they aren't left like that long. I know I have been thinking about doing this once in awhile with my puppy. She is hyperactive and likes to stay outside and dig for beetles in the yard (she's an odd one) for about 20 minutes before she'll go to the bathroom.

And with three kids here in the south where it's 100 and 100% humidity, sometimes it just sucks to be out there. But she would stay out there all day if she could. So I wouldn't mind for her letting her stay out on the leash (I can see her every move from my french doors in my living room) to chase beetles to her heart's content while I make sure the kids don't die of heat exhaustion.

SO I think that it depends on the circumstances. We plan on moving and getting a fenced yard as soon as we can so that she can have more outside time and so we can move somewhere colder!!!

that's funny about the beetles. these guys dig up moles... i'll be pulling weeds or somethign and they'll start "fighting" over a "toy" ick.

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by mom2tig99Nroo03

that's funny about the beetles. these guys dig up moles... i'll be pulling weeds or somethign and they'll start "fighting" over a "toy" ick.

Oh no! Our pup just started "hunting" this week for beetles and any other big bugs she can find. The problem is the fire ants around here are horrible and she gets bit a lot. I don't understand it. But I'm a cat person, and this is just weird stuff to me!

[shannon0218]

I don't have nearly the problem with tie outs that a lot of pet professionals have--mainly because I've seen fencing or just plain "here go run on this huge expanse of land" used just as irresponsibly. For me at least, I find tie outs are more likely to be "monitored" by the public to a point (at least here) so, again, here, dog's left for hours on tie outs is MUCH less of an occurance than dogs left for hours in yards (which I frankly disagree with equally to leaving dogs unattended on tie outs--used wrong it can mess with a dogs head just as bad--just in different ways)

Personally, I think anytime rescues and breeders put such heavy focus on one aspect, they tend to loose sight of some other aspects, sometimes the best owner in the world, may very well have a tie out that is used sporatically--the worst owner may have the perfect house and fenced yard but that doesn't mean they care for the dog more.

[boongirl]

About a year and a half ago, my daughter and I were on our regular cruise around the block when we spotted a cute black lab puppy tied to a cable in a yard with no fence. At that point, we had never actually seen the people who lived there. They were always gone. So, I was surprised to see a puppy, probably about 8 - 10 weeks old. He seemed to be having some trouble so we stepped closer. We realized quite quickly that he had the cable twisted around his body and neck he close to being so caught up. He would have had a lot of trouble, maybe cutting of air. And, he was chewing on a Nerf ball, but that is another issue. So, I untangled him and retied him in such a way that it would have been harder for him to get tangled. And, I threw the Nerf ball out of his reach. He also had no water on a 90 degree day. And, the kitten was also out and had knocked her water bowl over. So, I filled both their bowls, untangled the dog, and went home. Every few hours, I went back to that house but the people were never home. So, the next morning, I called animal control on them. I was so worried about those animals that I wanted something to be done. Animal control could leave them a letter; whereas I did not have the guts to write one. That day, the puppy was outside again so I once again checked on him and the kitten. The next day, and ever since, he has never been tied up in the yard ever again. And, strangely, we see the people all the time now and they are really nice. I just don't have the courage to talk about this with them. And, they never leave their dog out anymore and got a cat door for the kitten to get inside and, presumably, get a drink of water.

My point - just like turning your back on a child for a minute could mean they get into a dangerous situation, tying a dog to a cable or rope and leaving them unattended for any amount of time is neglectful. I tie my dog to a cable when I am in the front yard weeding but I am right there with him the whole time, untangling him every few minutes, helping to get unwrapped from around the bird feeder pole, stopping him from chasing squirrels and possibly causing neck damage from extreme tension on the cable, etc. We don't have a fence in our front yard, only in the back.

You never know what could happen when you tie a dog up and leave it unattended, even for a few minutes.

[pjlioness]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

I want a dog who is always and consistently "soft" on the leash; never hits the end of it and is responsive and sensitive to the person on the other end. A cable or tie-out teaches the exact opposite--instead of controlling the dog as an entire body, using the eyes and nose and the way a dog normally thinks and senses things (which is the way a fence controls them), the cable controls the neck just like a leash. But it encourages the dog to think of the collar/leash as an expression of outer limits, and maximum freedom/reward is experienced when the leash is stretched to its utmost. That dog can't then be expected to stay close and respond gently to a leash and owner.

I can see where *excessive* cabling could encourage a dog to pull all leashes, though I've never had much problem teaching a dog to heel/be soft on leash. Not pulling has always been important in my family, as my mom has braces on her legs and uses crutches (she had polio when she was a little older than ds1) and a dog (even a small one like the Pekinese they have now) pulling on a leash would put her off balance.

Originally Posted by thekimballs

And I guess my original question still stands--if you're only using it for a few minutes and you're being so responsive to the dog's needs, then why aren't you just walking the dog?

Originally Posted by Sailor

Why can't you just walk out with the dog to potty? I have always done that with mine (still do!). It doesn't really take that long.

I suppose it's simply habit. When dh and I lived in and near NYC, we *had* to walk the dog (Pomeranian who is now 17y.o.), so we did. Now he needs to go out every two hours or so when we are home and he is at all active, and it's nice not to have to do much more than open the door twice...and not have to worry about the kids wanting to come with (and pitching a fit if we say no, or wanting to stay out longer, now that they're already out ) for a 5-10 minute walk around the yard every two hours, especially when the weather is yucky. We have yet to put the puppy on the cable out back, though she's been on a tie-out in the front yard when we've been out with her. Once her leash manners are better, i.e., she learns to not constantly trip us, we'll probably have her tied to a leash around our waists when we're out and not officially training her to heel/be soft on leash. She certainly won't ever be on the cable run out back until/unless she's reliably potty trained.

We walk both dogs outside at least a few times a week (the puppy nearly every day, as she is learning about leashes). They also get walked in the house on leashes to keep them from pottying where we don't want them to - dog1 will hang out downstairs away from us, then pee if we don't get him out as soon as he has to go, but when we keep him with us, he potties outside. The puppy has a dog box to use, but she needs to be near it to actually use it. If she were always running loose in the house, she would never get herself back to the box to use it. [Ah, the fun of small dogs, who figure the other side of the room is an acceptable place to potty. It's tough teaching them that the whole huge (to them) house is off limits for pottying (except for the dog box, of course).] ...and they do get time every day off leash in the house with close supervision (though the puppy potties SO fast it is easy to miss it).

Originally Posted by thekimballs

If you're cabling the dog and walking away, even for a few moments, the dog loses the human interaction and is open to the bad things that cables bring.

Since I'm a SAHM, I'm not really worried about the dogs missing out on too much human interaction. When we've had a week where the kids and I are mostly out-and-about, I make sure to take at least the puppy on an errand trip to a pet store/to the school to pick up ds1/with my dh so one of us can stay in the car with her if it's too hot/sunny to leave animals in a car. We also take care to put the cable run in an unobstructed area, i.e. no trees, poles, etc., except for the one the far end of the cable is tied to, and every dog except one of my my folk's dogs - very ditzy - learned pretty quickly not to get wound up on that tree/pole.

Originally Posted by thekimballs

I know that when I'm trying to get a salad made, clean the living room, keep kids from spilling the jello, and iron my clothes, I can't stand the dogs walking through the kitchen and nosing at things on the counters. I can personally handle it with crates and a fenced yard (though I generally walk the dogs to pee; the fenced yard is an insurance because my kids aren't strong enough to control the Danes if Something Really Bad happened, so we don't let them walk the dogs except behind the fence). If someone didn't have a fence but did have a cable, the temptation to put the dog on the cable would be almost overwhelming.

Yeah, I totally get that Danes can get in the way sooo easily, especially since they can reach the counters and keep hoping against hope to sneak some food. We had a Dane/Belgian Sheepdog mix when I was growing up, and he did try that sometimes. However, my mom's braces/crutches come into play again. All the dogs learn(ed) pretty quickly to stay close but out of her way when she was walking around. We even had a Border Collie mix who unobtrusively herded the cats out of the way when someone was working in the kitchen. Now, that dog was a treasure. I wouldn't mind having a BC again, if I could be sure of getting one even a little like him.

Originally Posted by thekimballs

Anyway, that's my philosophical reason for no cables or tie-outs. I think they mess with dogs' heads, and, if the dog is left out for long periods (not saying that you would, just that people do), they're a hazard. There are just way too many stories of dogs hanging themselves, escaping because they slipped their collars, etc. for most puppy-placers (rescue, breeders) to be comfortable with them.

Well, you've definitely given me some ideas to think about. I have been and will continue to work on using the cable run less, even with the older dog. ...and if you wonder if I've been feeling defensive (or whatever) at all, I haven't. It's just that this thread has given me a chance to explore my views on/experiences with cable runs.

[pjlioness]

Originally Posted by shannon0218

I don't have nearly the problem with tie outs that a lot of pet professionals have--mainly because I've seen fencing or just plain "here go run on this huge expanse of land" used just as irresponsibly. For me at least, I find tie outs are more likely to be "monitored" by the public to a point (at least here) so, again, here, dog's left for hours on tie outs is MUCH less of an occurance than dogs left for hours in yards (which I frankly disagree with equally to leaving dogs unattended on tie outs--used wrong it can mess with a dogs head just as bad--just in different ways)

I also have seen many more dogs who were out too much in fenced-in yards (or just loose), including a dog a couple of doors down from us who, I think, is *always* outside in the ~1 acre fenced-in yard. The family has another dog, but s/he's inside most of the time, so I really feel for the outside dog. He gets so little interaction with anyone, especially because he's a bit unpredictable, so it's not safe to try to pet him. He loves being talked to, though, so we make a point of doing so when we are near.

Originally Posted by shannon0218

Personally, I think anytime rescues and breeders put such heavy focus on one aspect, they tend to loose sight of some other aspects, sometimes the best owner in the world, may very well have a tie out that is used sporatically--the worst owner may have the perfect house and fenced yard but that doesn't mean they care for the dog more.

That probably does happen. I think flexibility is key, but I understand that not having blanket rules (no kids, no cable runs, etc.) can mean more work for a breeder/rescue/shelter as they investigate a family, and rescues/shelters especially can't spare much time/personnel for it. Unfortunately, responsible pet owners pay a price for those out there who are not.

There are breeders/shelters out there that are too flexible, IMO, as well, including the shelter where we got our older dog. (Don't even get me started on pet stores.) They took references, etc., but then told us they weren't going to check them, as we seemed to know what we were getting ourselves into. Fortunately we did (or, rather, *I* did -dh had never had a dog and had no idea what he was doing), but we could have just been faking it. I kinda wish they *had* checked our references.