Is unschooling really a good idea? - Page 9

[pookel]

Originally Posted by heartmama

We are unschoolers and I do this. I can't imagine living with people that I couldn't approach with my idea's for their (or our) potential self interest.

IMHO, there's a difference between a casual, peer-to-peer comment like "hey, you might be interested in reading this book about math," and a parental suggestion of "why don't I teach you some math." (And there is another gap between that and "you must sit down and study math for half an hour" ... but that's why I started the other thread.)

[flyingspaghettimama]

Oh man, I always miss all the fun. I see that already the battle lines have been drawn, forces amassed, theories outlined, misconceptions challenged. Does anyone else find it slightly amusing as to how similar this thread's debaters are in comparison to one particular thread a few weeks ago?

Today, my daughter did multiplication in her head (figured out how many pairs of crocs she could buy with her savings - 30 each, so 2 pairs - but no money left - not worth it), history (was fascinated by the story of Harriet Tubman - read me her autobiography out loud so that I could also be appropriately amazed and horrified, and conjectured that she wanted to be John Brown, if she lived back in the day), reading (Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe), writing (wrote a letter to her cousin), socializing (playdate), played some fiddle (even though it's hard and makes her frustrated), wrote down all the notes to "Oh Susanna" from her keyboard, so she can ask her fiddle teacher tomorrow how to play it. All without my pushing, or needling.

Man, if you think your kids hate math - give them a weekly allowance. She gets a dollar a week, no matter what (not tied to room cleanliness, etc). They get darn good at it, quick. And interest regarding banking - that was a good conversation...she was in Montessori for the past few years, and she never exhibited the...shall I say...zeal for math that has cropped up this summer. She used to say she hated math...

She will take classes in the fall, based on what she wants to learn, and from whom. Learning is fun and not a chore, particularly if you get a say in it, and you know why you're doing the learning. Why else is college so much more rockin' than High School? Dude, she's a librarian's daughter. It's not like she's ever going to hurt for books, information, resources, and/or novelty. We're more fun than a barrel of monkeys around here.

And speaking of fun learners, where is Lillian J?!

[Lillian J]

I'm away from home for a while, but this thread caught my eye, and I have to toss in my 2 cents, even though I won't be around for a while to participate.

I really thought about the remark that a lot of unschooling is based on fear - "a fear that if the child is subjected to expectations or limits or too much direction that the child will shut down or dislike learning" - but I haven't know that to be true at all. I think that's just an interpretation of what's said. However, I see a lot of fears expressed in the original post - and my personal experience and observations don't support these as valid ones. I think unschoolers probably base decisions on less fears than than some others might:

1. If you're an unschooler, aren't you concerned that your child will never learn some of those skills that are fairly fundamental to almost every other form of learning -- and I'm thinking specifically of reading and math?

2. If your answer is something along the lines of, "I want my child to decide for him- or herself what's important," what about the fact that she or he may decide they need a particular skill long after the optimal "window" for learning it is gone? For example, research very clearly demonstrates that optimal foreign language learning takes place before about age 12, and that after that approximate age, you can pretty much count on never speaking without an accent and (probably) never being truly fluent.

3. What if they decide at, say, age 17 that they want to go to college, but the unschooling method has left them very much unprepared to do that in terms of basic skills?

4. What if your circumstances change, as in the example I posted above, and you now are faced with the fact that your child is considered "behind" when he or she gets into school?

I find it hard to imagine anyone posting such a thread here about another method of homeschooling, regardless of how some us might feel about it being potentially harmful and stifling. One thing seems obvious to me - that only people who unschool can make realistic observations about how it works. I thought I knew a lot more about unschoolers than I did before I actually got into it myself. Lillian

[heartmama]

Pookel yes there is a difference.

I've learned from experience the more coercive responses introduce a low level of friction into the situation. A subtle resistance.

My strongest wording at this point might be "I see that you were frustrated over x. I can show you how to do that with some practice. Would you be willing to let me show you, and then decide if it interests you?".

Anything stronger seems to put me "in charge" of his performance and I have never found this to result in the kind of learning I hope to achieve. His behavior becomes tedious and he loses a degree of self discipline.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

And speaking of fun learners, where is Lillian J?!

Reading and writing hurriedly from Arcata, CA, at the moment, heading back to Seattle. - Lillian

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by ErikaDP

I am willing to bet the farm that the vast majority of ineffective communicators on these and other boards on the internet were educated in schools that had a structured curriculum. Thus proving that academic exposure doesn't always lead to competencies in academics as adults.

Really... Awhile back, there were several incidents where I was trying to get some simple business taken care of and kept running across young adults who didn't seem to have a clue how to carry on a basic conversation or use their heads to figure out simple transactions. There were at least two times when I found myself about to blurt out "Did you go to school?!" - but not even with the intention of being insulting. It was just that I was so startled and puzzled, wondering where they'd been all their lives. I caught myself before blurting anything out, and said to myself, "Well, of course she went to school! Everyone goes to school. Everyone except homeschoolers, that is - and this obviously wasn't a homeschooler." How did I know she hadn't been a homeschooler? Because I've just never met such clueless homeschoolers. And that got my mind to trying to imagine how they'd spent all those years in classrooms - wondering what in the world they do there all those long days in order to come out the other end in such a daze...

- Lillian

[pookel]

Originally Posted by heartmama

Pookel yes there is a difference.

I've learned from experience the more coercive responses introduce a low level of friction into the situation. A subtle resistance.

Do you think that this might be true for your kid but not for everyone? I'm asking an honest question based on my own experience. My parents taught me tons of things before I was in kindergarten - how to read, addition and subtraction, some science (my mom brought a frog home for us to dissect!). I'm pretty sure we didn't come to them and ask to be taught that stuff, but I *know* that we enjoyed it. I loved reading and I loved math at that age - it was only school that killed my joy for learning, not my parents' teaching me.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by pookel

This is the part I don't get about unschooling. Why wait until someone comes to you? Why not go to them?

Oh I think it's a misconception that unschooling parents never go to their child with something to share or show them. I have taught my kids many things. (Ds was just introduced to the term "Apartheid" by me just today actually. We had a lovely conversation about all sorts of related issues. I didn't sit back and think "Hmm, I wonder if Ds will come to me wondering about this." nor did I go to him with a plan laid out for learning about it. We just talked.

I can't imagine forcing learning on an unwilling kid, and yet I see a lot of unschoolers here who seem to think that that's the only way to teach that isn't unschooling.

To me unschooling means that the student is in control of his or her own education with parents and others as support systems, helpers, teachers, providers of materials, etc. If the child is free to say "No I don't really want to do that. I'd rather do this." (whatever this happens to be) without the parent saying "No, Im sorry this needs to be done" or "If you do this then we can do that." and so on then it's unschooling for me. If your thoughts about a parent teaching mesh with that then we are not really in disagreement. Bottom line: Kid is in control of their education.

[FrederickMama]

Why wouldn't you have asked to be taught that stuff?

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

It's less about education and more about the way I want to live and raise my kids.

Well then! Why is it so difficult to wrap your head around the idea that not every attached parent will be an unschooler? Is it so impossible to concieve of someone who follows their child's interests, provides their child with what they need to be happy and thrive, but *doesn't* make them primarily responsible for their own educations? Not every child is going to be comfortable with that, nor is every adult.

Can you accept that perhaps not all decisions made by non-unschoolers are fear-based? Or even that some decisions made by unschoolers are based on fear? I have to say, I don't really have a lot of fears about our chosen path. I'm not concerned that BooBah won't be reading fluently before she's 12, or that BeanBean won't be able to go to college if he wants to, or that my children will be uncreative, or that they'll feel like they missed out on childhood. I think that I've made the right decision for my own children. Naturally, the decisions I make are informed in part by my own life's path, but they're primarily informed by my kids. I honestly don't believe that they'd be happy as unschoolers. I know that I wouldn't, neither as a child nor as a parent.

How many unschoolers have I met in real life? About two dozen, so not many all told. None of them are talking about college, as far as I know. I don't believe that all unschoolers are neglectful by any stretch, only that I can totally see how certain outcomes are more likely with unschooling than with any other home education method. Once again, I'm not talking about school (and yes, I do differentiate between school and home education; in most cases, they're very, very different) here, but home education.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

[ To me unschooling means that the student is in control of his or her own education with parents and others as support systems, helpers, teachers, providers of materials, etc. If the child is free to say "No I don't really want to do that. I'd rather do this." (whatever this happens to be) without the parent saying "No, Im sorry this needs to be done" or "If you do this then we can do that." and so on then it's unschooling for me. If your thoughts about a parent teaching mesh with that then we are not really in disagreement. Bottom line: Kid is in control of their education.

See, I'm not sure that I agree with this definition of unschooling, and I'm not sure how many people here would agree. By this definition, *I'm* an unschooler, but I can't imagine anyone describing me this way...

[FrederickMama]

Than what is your definition of unschooling?

[quaz]

Oh goodness, well, I haven't read through this whole thread....

but the thing that I don't get....

Let's look at the 80's and 90's.... computers and computer programming wasn't being taught in school early on. How many kids in grade school, jr high and high school taught themselves 'hard science' b/c they were enthralled and interested in this area? How many times did we hear about whiz kid java/html programmers (ok... whiz kid is a bit of a stretch, b/c I think those items are fairly easy... but still). I taught myself programming b/c I thought it was INTERESTING, and did that in grade school The whole computer industry realllly grew by leaps and bounds b/c of these kids that taught themselves a field that sure wasn't being taught in the public school system.... they did it because of their OWN INTEREST. Here's an entire field in our recent history that many people picked up b/c of unschooling.

My brother barely graduated high school, and flunked out of college. Yet he taught himself in areas of theoretical physics, cryptology, computer networking, and has a job in computer networking, without any degree or formal schooling.

I'm not an unschooler. I don't think I'll unschool.... but I've read many misconceptions in this thread about unschooling.

Tammy

[FrederickMama]

And I believe certain outcomes are more likely to occur with unschoolers too ....just not the same ones you are thinking of.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by pookel

IMHO, there's a difference between a casual, peer-to-peer comment like "hey, you might be interested in reading this book about math," and a parental suggestion of "why don't I teach you some math." (And there is another gap between that and "you must sit down and study math for half an hour" ... but that's why I started the other thread.)

I myself am still getting the hang of this unschooling business. Would it be correct to assume that unschoolers would not be using a curriculum, unless the child and parent selected it? But instead, the parent might introduce concepts via games, or observation, or the child's questions? Or wait until the child first engaged the concept (i.e. radical unschooling). My personal abhorrence of textbook learning or learning by schedule is what leads me to unschooling. She learned a lot of basic math facts by playing games of "frog juice"...

I think people have the misconception that an unschooling parent lets children do whatever, without any attention or concern on the parent's part. I see my role as being one of ensuring exposure and experiences. We go eat dim sum, we'll go to the science museum, the zoo, the library, the beach, the wading pool. We chat with my friends and her friends, who come froma variety of backgrounds. From my experience, these experiences lead to so many questions and interests, it's more a problem with keeping up than falling behind. As if there were a "behind."

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

[To me unschooling means that the student is in control of his or her own education with parents and others as support systems, helpers, teachers, providers of materials, etc. If the child is free to say "No I don't really want to do that. I'd rather do this." (whatever this happens to be) without the parent saying "No, Im sorry this needs to be done" or "If you do this then we can do that." and so on then it's unschooling for me. If your thoughts about a parent teaching mesh with that then we are not really in disagreement. Bottom line: Kid is in control of their education.

I get you and agree. If my daughter wanted to stop fiddle, that's her choice.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Well then! Why is it so difficult to wrap your head around the idea that not every attached parent will be an unschooler?

It's not. It's just not right for me. Hell I have friends who aren't even really AP and I believe they love their children dearly.

Not every child is going to be comfortable with that, nor is every adult.

I know. I mean, otherwise we wouldn't be having this thread lol. Families should do what feels right.

Can you accept that perhaps not all decisions made by non-unschoolers are fear-based? Or even that some decisions made by unschoolers are based on fear?

Sure. Anything is possible. Though the latter hasn't been my experience.

None of them are talking about college, as far as I know.

That's alright by me. Not everyone sees it as a a goal. And they could change their minds later on. I've told the kids my thoughts on college, but I know that the decision needs to made by them.

[cottonwood]

This is the fastest moving thread I've seen in Learning At Home And Beyond in a long while. Fun, but geez I can hardly keep up!

Originally Posted by Roar

When my son started an instrument his teacher was very clear on two things - she's not interested in teaching kids who don't want to be there and she isn't interested in spending time with kids who don't practice. I think that is quite reasonable.

I'm not sure why you're arguing the point. Sure, it's reasonable for anyone to make their own rules about the kind of work they will do and the kind of people they will work with. It doesn't follow that all rules are good for all clients. For me, there is much value in having teachers who do not feel this particular way. I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed to feel that way.

Originally Posted by eilonwy

They went to college and were very unhappy with all of the remedial work that they had to do, and all of the things that they didn't know because they had never had any structure imposed on their learning. They were irritated that they had to waste money doing it in college, when they could have learned it just as quickly and easily years earlier, if only their parents had introduced the work.

That's ridiculous. They didn't have to waste money doing it in college, they could have simply worked for a year, saved money, and learned these simple things on their own time, and saved college for the things they felt they needed guidance on.

Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire

Okay, but what about the fact that sometimes you don't know a) that you'll like something until you try it,

Well, I guess I'd better get busy learning about computer programming, car mechanics, French imperialism, and learning to play the bass. I have no interest in any of these things, but who knows, I might love them. Of course, since I have no interest in them, I won't be motivated to do them, so I'd better have someone to *make* me do them...

Seriously, there are soooo many things I *already* know I'm interested in, and not near anywhere enough time to learn them all, what on earth sense would it make for me to learn things simply on the off chance that they might have value for me? I am sure there are scores of things that would. I just don't see any sense in guessing at that (or taking another's word for it,) when there are scores of things I already know have value for me, and many more that I will in the future find myself interested in.

b) that you'll need a piece of information later,

So for instance, I should have learned about horticulture long ago, before I had any interest and before it had any relevance to my life, so that today I would already know how to grow melons and eradicate bindweed? But how could I have possibly have known *that* would be the information I would need?

It really doesn't bother me to learn about something as I need it. It's easier and even fun for me to do so, in fact, when the interest and motivation is current. It's painful when it isn't, and there's the danger of it being a complete and utter waste of time. Life is short. 99.99% of what I learned in school (even a college preparatory high school with honors classes) has not served me in my after-school life in any way. Almost everything I have ever learned that has had value to me, *I* have initiated the learning because the subject was compelling to me and had known value.

"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself."
--George Bernard Shaw

or c) that you train your brain in a particular way that helps you? For example, I was "forced," if you will, to take geometry, a subject for which I had no liking or interest. However, once there, I actually found myself liking the proofs (!!!) because it was the very first time in my life that anyone had compelled me to think in a straightforward, logical manner. At the time, I could practically feel my brain developing new wrinkles (or maybe it was a killer headache, or both ) The obvious moral of the story is that I never would've figured that out had I not been forced to take geometry, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Really? You've encountered nothing else in your life that compelled you to think in a straightforward, logical manner? Nothing that you actually wanted to look into?

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

See, I'm not sure that I agree with this definition of unschooling, and I'm not sure how many people here would agree. By this definition, *I'm* an unschooler, but I can't imagine anyone describing me this way...

So you do not require your kids cover anything?

Yea, I have had some discussions with other unschoolers about this too. Defining things can get really tricky lol. Ask a 20 unschoolers a question and get 124 answers or some such thing.

Let me see if I can clean it up a bit:

If there are required, mandatory assignments, curriculum, goals, benchmarks, studying schedules, tests (Personal tests. Not the required state ones.) and just "stuff that must be done or covered" and this is all set and enforced by the parent whether the child wants it or not, it's not unschooling to me.

If the child can tell you "I don't want to do this. It's not interesting/fun/important to me at all. I'm going to go play outside." and you respect that consistantly..well then it starts to look like unschooling. When there are forced assignments, schedules, subjects and areas to be covered set by the parent it doesn't fit for me.

Geez. Aren't I less than eloquent tonight lol.

[eminer]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

I find it hard to imagine anyone posting such a thread here about another method of homeschooling, regardless of how some us might feel about it being potentially harmful and stifling.

Rynna, I don't really understand why it makes sense to generalize about the pitfalls of unschooling. Just as you continue to observe and respond to your own ds, parents who choose unschooling may do the same. It's not some big mystery to me whether my dd is going to turn out illiterate or not.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

So for instance, I should have learned about horticulture long ago, before I had any interest and before it had any relevance to my life, so that today I would already know how to grow melons and eradicate bindweed? But how could I have possibly have known *that* would be the information I would need?

I am just impressed you know what bindweed is. We should swap tips sometime. Now, if one were to create a machine that could harvest bindweed and spin it into gold...