Is unschooling really a good idea? - Page 27

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by illinoismommy

My other thought is though it sounds nice to let them decide, what if they never want to learn and just want to do video games?

That's simply not realistic, and I don't mean this in a snarky way, but it's actually pretty insulting to kids.
They're people - and people are natural learners unless their senses have been dulled by particularly negative schoolish experiences or some other sort of unusual adverse circumstances. I've never heard of anyone not in a coma who doesn't want to learn. Such mythological creatures are the figment of the imagination of people who have not witnessed unschooling up close and personal and don't seem to see or hear or believe the many impressive stories unschoolers tell about what really goes on. There was indeed a lot of talk about video games here, but unschoolers pointed out that their kids who play video games also do a whole lot of other things.

It's actually because of wanting to encourage and enable enthusiastic and capable lifelong learners that a lot of people choose to unschool. A fascinating read, incidentally - although not an unschooling book or even a homeschooling book - is Frank Smith's Book of Learning and Forgetting. - Lillian

[littlest birds]

One of the things I am beginning to see happen is that older homeschoolers can engage in quite serious thought about what their goals are in life.

One of the things unschoolers can do is to choose to begin laying foundations if they want, as my daughter does, to possibly go into a scientific field. She actually decided, with ZERO nudging from me, that she wanted to do some higher math as it might be advantageous for college admissions and coursework in the sciences. And even though she hasn't in the past enjoyed math, she told me in response to my mild surprise, that Algebra "sounds interesting"....

She is only 11yo BTW, so I have a feeling that she has not gotten behind on college preparation up to this point LOL.

I am just now beginning myselkf to understand that it isn't so likely that unschoolers would have problems with getting behind on such things. By the time these kind of advance considerations make a real difference, the children are mature enough to navigate much of it on their own with moderate parental support. They can in fact comprehend the value of long-term goals.

My 6yos on the other hand might not "cover" every topic a first grade teacher would. For them, I actually don't think that matters. Such "coverage" is awfully superficial and basically lost on most kids that age...

As long as learnig patterns are being laid by learning about some interesting things in interesting ways while progressing in general development and basic skills all the time, the truly important groundwork is there. Just watching them I can clearly see they are learning so much in every area, and I really don't want to tamper much with all the things they are doing so very very well with by their own initiative.

[Tigeresse]

Originally Posted by illinoismommy

My other thought is though it sounds nice to let them decide, what if they never want to learn and just want to do video games? (I know there was a lot of talk about video games) I am not okay with that, of course, and even if I say no video games there are still a million things to do that do not involve learning.... ...

Well, I am constantly amazed by the learning that happens by playing video games and by doing millions of other "uneducational" things.

The biggest thing I have learned in the process of homeschooling and eventually unschooling is that my kids learn best when supported in their endeavors rather than directed. The respectful approach that unschooling allows results in learning that is authentic, genuine, and belongs to the learner. To me, that is of utmost importance, rather than a specific "body of knowledge" that must be acquired by a certain date/age.

[ErikaDP]

Originally Posted by Tigeresse

Well, I am constantly amazed by the learning that happens by playing video games and by doing millions of other "uneducational" things.

The biggest thing I have learned in the process of homeschooling and eventually unschooling is that my kids learn best when supported in their endeavors rather than directed. The respectful approach that unschooling allows results in learning that is authentic, genuine, and belongs to the learner. To me, that is of utmost importance, rather than a specific "body of knowledge" that must be acquired by a certain date/age.

Very well said Tigeresse! I completely agree.

Take Care,
Erika:

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by illinoismommy

I know lots of people don't agree with me, but the math formulas and higher math I find very important and even as a stay at home mom I feel that calculus was good for me to learn. If your child grows up and wants to be an engineer or a physicist or something else along those lines, they are going to need to know higher math... so no unschooling for us.

But this suggests that it is not possible for an unschooled child to learn higher math, which I know to be patently false. There is plenty of time to learn higher math when/if your child decides to become an engineer or physicist. It takes such a fraction of the time for a child to learn something when s/he is a bit older and motivated because the work is meaningful to him / her.

Miranda

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

t takes such a fraction of the time for a child to learn something when s/he is a bit older and motivated because the work is meaningful to him / her.

This is something my grown son has commented on. When he sat on a panel of homeschool grads a few years ago at a homeschool conference, they were asked what one thing they would change if they could go back and do it all over again. He said he would have liked for us to have known from the beginning how much faster and easier things can be learned later - he pointed out that things can be learned in weeks instead of years or days instead of months. Boisterous laughing and applause broke out in the center front rows - those were friends of his and their parents, all of whom had learned the same thing! Actually, I was kind of surprised to hear him mention this as the thing he'd change, since we had figured things out pretty early on, but he told me after the panel that he had just felt it would be good to point it out for new homeschooling parents so they wouldn't think they had to run their young children through stacks of books.

- Lillian

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by Tigeresse

The biggest thing I have learned in the process of homeschooling and eventually unschooling is that my kids learn best when supported in their endeavors rather than directed. The respectful approach that unschooling allows results in learning that is authentic, genuine, and belongs to the learner. To me, that is of utmost importance, rather than a specific "body of knowledge" that must be acquired by a certain date/age.

This sums it up so well. That's what motivates some of us to keep participating in these oftentimes frustrating discussions - wanting to share that experience. And note that I said experience, not theory.

The key word is "respect." The notion of some set body of knowledge that should be learned by a certain age is absurd in this big and infinitely complex life and world of ours. - Lillian

[SRHS]

Just have to add that this is SO TRUE with my 9 year old...we started out with school at home... and it was like "throwing marshmallows" to steal Stephanie Elm's line....it was a horribly frustrating experience for both Zac and me....finally I relaxed into unschooling nad it is absolutely AMAZING what he can do now with no pressure or pushing....he knows math facts off the top of his head with no drilling, he can even spell and actually goes to his room to read of his own choosing, not being pushed there for an hour or some other preset time limit and pre chosen book....And the things he is choosing to read are WAY above his "4th grade readign level" that had I continued to push reading and phonics and spelling we still would not have arrived here. but because no one is pressuring or predetermining what he is or should be capable of, he does what he wants and for him MOTIVATION is the KEY factor!!! So, from someone who tried it both ways, I just have to say how WRONG I was the "school at home" was the way to go....BAD MOVE on my part....but I'm learnign alongside the kids and we unschool, so all is well now!!!

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by SRHS

it is absolutely AMAZING what he can do now with no pressure or pushing....he knows math facts off the top of his head with no drilling, he can even spell and actually goes to his room to read of his own choosing, not being pushed there for an hour or some other preset time limit and pre chosen book....And the things he is choosing to read are WAY above his "4th grade readign level" that had I continued to push reading and phonics and spelling we still would not have arrived here. but because no one is pressuring or predetermining what he is or should be capable of, he does what he wants and for him MOTIVATION is the KEY factor!!! So, from someone who tried it both ways, I just have to say how WRONG I was the "school at home" was the way to go....BAD MOVE on my part....but I'm learnign alongside the kids and we unschool, so all is well now!!!

I can understand what you're saying, but the implication seems to me to be that you must either be unschooling or doing school-at-home. Maybe I missed something in this thread, but why assume that a child who isn't unschooling is experiencing loads of pressure and pushing (or any at all)?

[AuntLavender]

Originally Posted by Pandora114

True, but the parent isn't trained to help the child overcome the disability. Also, to work through a disability, one needs to pretty much approach it like physical therapy for a physically disabled person. The excersises MUST be done, weather the person wishes to do them or not, or they wont progress/get better. This is where the Unschooling ends. If one chooses to continue to unschool a child with a LD, then the excersises might go undone because it's too difficult, the child doesn't want to...ect.

I am becoming trained by my child's therapists in order to help him speak. My 37mo ds only says "mama", "dada", and "nana" (for his sister Natalie not banana). After 6 mos of therapy he says "no" and makes 2-3 word approximations like "mama oo oo ah ah" for "mama milk thank you". It's kind of insulting that you would suggest parents aren't trained to help their children. Unschooling doesn't mean you don't do therapy at home it means you don't do school-at-home or you don't approach education in an institutionalized way imo. I looked up books at the library for my son's diagnosis and I am educating myself through various websites and support groups.

Originally Posted by Pandora114

"A learning disability is very difficult to overcome, and if the kid isn't pushed to do what's needed when it's needed, then there's no hope to really overcome it."

My child might never speak clearly. I am helping him live with it. Not everything can be overcome.

Originally Posted by Pandora114

My teachers pushed me, and pushed me and pushed me. My mother had no idea I had a learning disability, I Hid it very well from her. I cheated, I did what it took to get results and I got the one on one help during lunches and recesses. Sure the acctual diagnosis wasn't given till I was 23, but it doesn't take a genius to see the difficulties and the grades slipping to aknowledge there is a problem somewhere. My LD is severe, and my mother didn't notice. that's right. she didn't...notice. It's a hidden one. Dyscalculia is a hidden disability. It's not like Dyslexia...where one can pretty much tell early on if one has it..

I am sorry your mother didn't give you the help you needed. Not all mothers are oblivious of their child's learning problems. My child's doctors rely on me for information regarding my child. They consider me an expert.

Originally Posted by Pandora114

A child with a LD usually doesn't express intrest in the topics he/she is disabled in because it's too difficult or they just can't grasp it...

That is a harsh generalization.

Originally Posted by Pandora114

Thanks to the patience of teachers, I managed to plug through and get enough math skills to get me through life.

How fortunate you had caring teachers! I am patient with my child and I hope he will speak one day.

Sincerely,
Debra, homeschooling mom of 4 ages 9 1/2, 8 1/2, 6 1/2, and 37 mos

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

but why assume that a child who isn't unschooling is experiencing loads of pressure and pushing (or any at all)?

because "unschooling", by definition, means learning without pressure and pushing, one can therefore assume that a child who isn't unschooling is being pressured or pushed, however gently.

Although some parents of young children find that their kids are open to everything they plan, at some point this will change because as kids get older, they natually develop more of their own agenda. Then a parent must make a choice -- is letting my kid do what they want more important or is manipulating them into doing what I think is educational more important?

My kids, esp. when they were younger, really like me to have a plan. As they have gotten older, their desires have changed. In some areas, like math, they like structured lessons. There are some curriculums that they like, such as Great Adventures in Science, but more and more often they have their own things that they want to do and learn about in their own ways.

[SRHS]

Yes, what Linda on the Move said....when we were schooling at home, I THOUGHT i was not pressuring my child, but when I totally let go of "agendas" and "should learn in the first grade" and those other generalizations and when I sat back and just WATCHED them learn, I realized how I was SQUASHING the learning, not facilitating or encouraging like I thought and intended.

Even though I enjoyed school as a child, i learned what i was told to learn, something someone else chose for me and I did it on their time table, not mine...how wonderful to be able to learn of your own choosing and in your own way and time.

And as far as LD go...some aren't actually LD, they learn differently or have had exposure to teaching disabilities....some kids who previuosly were diagnosed LD, have no sign of any "disability" at home...in their own way and in their own time...

Sus

[Charles Baudelaire]

Originally Posted by SRHS

And as far as LD go...some aren't actually LD, they learn differently or have had exposure to teaching disabilities....some kids who previuosly were diagnosed LD, have no sign of any "disability" at home...in their own way and in their own time...

Sus

Given the explosion of "learning disabilities," I genuinely have to wonder how much of them are "schooling disabilities."

[ErikaDP]

Originally Posted by SRHS

...And as far as LD go...some aren't actually LD, they learn differently or have had exposure to teaching disabilities....some kids who previuosly were diagnosed LD, have no sign of any "disability" at home...in their own way and in their own time...

Sus

This is so true that it's worth repeating!
Thanks Sus for a great post!

Take Care,
Erika:

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire

Given the explosion of "learning disabilities," I genuinely have to wonder how much of them are "schooling disabilities."

indeed.
http://atypicalhomeschool.net/articl...-disabilities/

[Dar]

Originally Posted by SRHS

And as far as LD go...some aren't actually LD, they learn differently or have had exposure to teaching disabilities....some kids who previuosly were diagnosed LD, have no sign of any "disability" at home...in their own way and in their own time...

Yes! I'm certified to teach children with learning disabilities, and it's been clear to me from the start that many of the problems these kids were having were due to just not being developmentally *ready*, and then they were taught all these techniques that interfered with the natural progression of their learning so that by the time they were developmentally ready, their brains were full of garbage techniques.

My little brother was labeled learning disabled back in the seventies, and the label dogged him into his first attempt at college. At twenty he finally got out of school for a while, and within a few years he discovered a true passion for reading - he'd never read for pleasure until this time - and also ways to compensate for his "disabilities". He has a successful career now and is working on a Master's degree.

dar

[Jen123]

And as far as LD go...some aren't actually LD, they learn differently or have had exposure to teaching disabilities....some kids who previuosly were diagnosed LD, have no sign of any "disability" at home...in their own way and in their own time...

So very true I had to quote it also.

[SRHS]

LIke Dar, my brother had a hard time in school and today would have all sorts of negative LD labels attached to him, but, he did simultaneously get a DVM and PhD w hen he found what motivated him and what he was interested in!!! I'm so t hankful my ds's won't have to endure that or those labels that tend to be so irrelevant in the REAL WORLD!!!

thanks for all the support and kuddos!!
sus

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by illinoismommy

what if they never want to learn and just want to do video games?

I find the notion that people will not do what is valuable to them, that they have to be *made* to do what is valuable to them, utterly absurd. Where is the logic in that?

We've unschooled from the beginning, and my kids do play video games. They *love* video games. They also love bouncing on the trampoline, talking politics, having books read to them, making money, making food, playing with friends, playing card games, drawing, and doing math, among other things. There are so many thing of interest and value in the world, how could they possibly want to do nothing but play video games? I know a lot of unschoolers, some of whom have spent a lot of time gaming, but none that have done gaming exclusively, long-term. They always have other things going on. Now, some people would consider even that unacceptable, since gaming is to them a waste of time with no value whatsoever (and I disagree.) Some feel that there is an addictive element. I think there are health issues involved with sitting in front of a television or computer screen for long periods of time (which would be there even if the child was doing something generally regarded as a valid use of time like computer programming.) But I have absolutely not seen people become addicted unless as a reaction to a restrictive, coercive, stressful environment (which seems to be the way it goes with addictions.) If my child was doing nothing but playing video games, I wouldn't think, "maybe I shouldn't have unschooled," but rather, "what is going on in his life that he's feeling the need to withdraw and obsess in this way?"

This was also addressed earlier in the thread (and over and over on countless threads in this forum ) if you're interested in reading what others had to say about it.

Originally Posted by illinoismommy

I know lots of people don't agree with me, but the math formulas and higher math I find very important and even as a stay at home mom I feel that calculus was good for me to learn. If your child grows up and wants to be an engineer or a physicist or something else along those lines, they are going to need to know higher math... so no unschooling for us.

If it will truly have value for them, though, why would they not choose to learn it?

Math is important to me too. I don't believe, though, that there is anything that my child wouldn't learn without my making him learn, that is important for him to learn.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I If my child was doing nothing but playing video games, I wouldn't think, "maybe I shouldn't have unschooled," but rather, "what is going on in his life that he's feeling the need to withdraw and obsess in this way?"

- Lillian