Is unschooling really a good idea? - Page 5

[littlest birds]

Well, I don't agree with the radical unschooling philosophy because I think that it is an adult idea superimposed upon the child--it CAN be just as problematic as any other top-down decision. It can create a disconnect from the individual child's needs.

It is my strong opinion that some kids thrive with unschooling and some do not. Not every child procedes to their best self with a low-interventionist approach to learning. If one's belief is too strong it might drown out contrary cues from your child. If you listen to your child's cues, they might lead you away from "pure" unschooling.

It seems better to stay open-minded and flexible than adhere to something that can lean towards dogmatism. Once you have a label it sort of creates a box to live in, just a different kind of box.

Unschooling is better for us as a thinking tool that helps give me perspective in general on learning and how it happens, not as a label and a set of rules I should follow. As such, it helps us be balanced.

I am committed to extremely responsive learning for our family. I base my expectations on my children and all that I know and learn of them as we go--I ALSO base them on my own adult broad knowledge and understanding of the world we live in. The children are often in the driver's seat, but not always.

Like a pp I find it upsetting how relatively illiterate so many adults are, and although it is not caused by large-scale unschooling, I think some kids will never ever connect with and develop basic abilities left to their own devices. They may have just superficial competence. I think it opens up a lot of "hindsight 20/20" potential for kids who may wish they had background competence in something at 17 or 27 even though they didn't care at 10--and "why didn't my parents lead the way?"

BTW I know one talented adult unschooler, who has started and stopped going to college and dropped classes several times and complains that the teachers can't teach him anything because he already knows it and they spend too much time on this and that simple stuff that isn't central to his own interests. Unfortunately it isn't true about this person from my observations and my experience at college--college would have plenty to offer him, and I also observe that the parents have really encouraged the attitude. Like "you're such a genius that teachers have little to offer" I don't know how that all connects, but I get a weird feeling about this particular situation and it does not add to the appeal of unschooling. This very intelligent person have a big disadvantage. Just one individual/family, but it gives me some food for thought.

I love the ideas of unschooling and the perspective it gives me in thinking about how children learn within a more diverse approach. It is so valuable to us in addressing our children's unique needs and desires and life paths.

[judejude]

Originally Posted by Yooper Hmmmm.
First, I am not at all worried about the "essential skills". I cannot imagine any child not wanting to know how to read.

I can. I teach English.



Again that is because kids in school never get a chance to feel that drive to learn----- they spend all their time resisting anything that seems like ?learning".

What if the kid wants to play video games all day??? HS parents don't really allow that sort of thing or even get it started.

[Yooper]

Originally Posted by Brisen

Yooper, can you come teach my kid? And me?

Just out of curiosity, what instrument do you play?

Sure! If you live in the U.P. of Michigan

I play the clarinet.

I am also taking lessons for flute and sometimes only bring it out for lessons. My teacher knows this and is OK with it. On weeks when I have not had the time or desire to practice, we focus on tone, sight reading, fingering alternatives, posture, etc.....

[littlest birds]

Originally Posted by judejude

Originally Posted by Yooper Hmmmm.

What if the kid wants to play video games all day??? HS parents don't really allow that sort of thing or even get it started.

Many unschoolers' parents do.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by deeporgarten

Many unschoolers' parents do.

My kids have been playing video games for most of their lives.

[judejude]

Oh, and on the subject of being ready for college--- I barely passed every grade my whole childhood, then I flunked my second year in HS. I then passed my GED the next year with flying colors. I then went to college when I was 26 and when I took the entrance testing I passed with flying colors. My whole life until I was 26 I thought I was an idiot because of all the negative attention i got about my grades. Then I went to college and had a 4.0 GA the whole time---go figure.

A woman that took care of my daughter who was 21 or 22 who had good grades in HS went to the same college that I did and she ended up having to take a whole semester of classes to bring her up to college level.

It is so individual and how you do in "school" only means so much.

[Brisen]

Originally Posted by deeporgarten

Well, I don't agree with the radical unschooling philosophy because I think that it is an adult idea superimposed upon the child--it CAN be just as problematic as any other top-down decision. It can create a disconnect from the individual child's needs.

I'm not sure I understand -- are you saying any top-down system is bad homeschooling? And unschooling is top-down?

Originally Posted by deeporgarten

It is my strong opinion that some kids thrive with unschooling and some do not. Not every child procedes to their best self with a low-interventionist approach to learning. If one's belief is too strong it might drown out contrary cues from your child. If you listen to your child's cues, they might lead you away from "pure" unschooling.

This might have been addressed in the "misconceptions of unschooling" thread -- many people would see responding to a child's cues for more intervention, more structure, and more direction as perfectly compatible with unschooling.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by Roar

For me being "better" has nothing to do with it. There are oodles of things I do in life that I don't enjoy one darn bit but I do them because I believe the benefit outweighs the cost. A few examples: paying my car insurance, flossing my teeth, taking out the trash, taking little kids to the park, laundry, etc.

But do you really have to be pushed to do those things? You do them, I assume, because you recognize the benefit and choose to do them, not because someone is telling you you have to.

I also think it presumes too much to think that young children will always be born with an innate sense of how to learn any given thing such as not to need adult support to find the road.

Do you think that unschoolers do not support their children? I thought we were talking about pushing, coercing, etc.?

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

That's a difference in life philosophy, though. I respect if someone else has a different one, but I wouldn't want someone (e.g. a parent) to force theirs on me, and believe it would be immoral for them to do so.

Ah, but when you decide not to teach your child disciplined ways of learning you are in fact imposing your approach on them.

Label it what you like, for a parent to push a child according to the parent's expectations and for a parent to allow a child to come to something in their own time and way are two very different things.

Reading a bit about anxiety may be helpful. Most anxiety treatments involve steady measured small exposures to parts of the thing a person struggles with until they can overcome that fear.

Thanks, but I know about anxiety and this type of treatment first hand. The way I dealt with the anxiety was to remove the stressors that had been causing it for over two decades of my life.

The treatment was a massive failure when imposed from without, making things far worse. It has been a tremendous success when coming from within, by my choice, of my making, and when I felt I was ready.

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I want my children to learn that *they* have the power to make themselves what they want to be, and that their lives are ultimately their own responsibility. I don't want them to learn to believe that they can't accomplish something unless someone is pushing them.

I agree with the long term goal. I don't agree that a parent saying if you want violin lessons you have to practice every day or let's set the timer for 15 minutes and see if you get anywhere on this problem will in anyway impede that happening.

I've seen and experienced that it directly and profoundly impedes that happening.

Most of our kids have exposure to kids outside of the unschooling or homeschooling community. It may be less of an issue if you don't plan that. If the child wishes to see cousins, kids in the neighborhood, play on sports teams, have exposure to media, etc. it may not be possible to insulate them from this awareness.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Our children have exposure to these things too, which is why we talk to them about it.

[littlest birds]

Originally Posted by Brisen

I'm not sure I understand -- are you saying any top-down system is bad homeschooling? And unschooling is top-down?

I think unschoolers perceive themselves as being against top-down decision making.

Originally Posted by Brisen

This might have been addressed in the "misconceptions of unschooling" thread -- many people would see responding to a child's cues for more intervention, more structure, and more direction as perfectly compatible with unschooling.

Yes, this has been discussed and I have been there for that. But I think that the label like any other label can easily becomes a hindrance to flexibility anyway. Really, if people see a lot of parent direction and imposed structure they do not see that as being unschooling. Whatever the reason for it. I gotta go now.

[judejude]

Originally Posted by Roar

4. There are kids who bury themselves in TV or video games for years. They plug in and tune out. This may be of no concern for a parent considers these pursuits of equal value to anything else, but it would personally be a concern for me.

Are these unschoolers??? That would be bad for sure, but as a rule I don't think any unschoolers do this. The unschoolers I know have a totally different lifestyle than the average family and I can't see this being an issue. If it is then I would say that is a rare case.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by Roar

A friend's unschooled daughter was faced with teasing in her neighborhood over this issue to the point where she asked for a rigid curriculum because she was sick of feeling stupid compared to other kids and she'd felt that the reason she hadn't been taught is because her parents thought she couldn't learn it!

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

It's all in the perspective, and it sounds like this girl's parents failed in providing that. It sounds also that her parents failed in communicating to her their belief in her abilities and what the unschooling philosophy is about and the reasons for it, and perhaps were not cued in enough to know when she was ready for support in learning how to read.

Originally Posted by Roar

They were unschoolers with a deep commitment to the philosophy and they had strong ties in the unschooling community and I don't think it is fair to say that their daughter had a particular feeling because they failed in some way.

It's irrelevant how deep their commitment is. If they failed to communicate to her these things, they failed to communicate them, and that led to some painful misconceptions on her part.

The child felt bad about being unschooled (and the fact that her parents were so strong in the philosophy didn't help that).

This isn't really an issue of unschooling. It's an issue of being different, not fitting in, being what you know is regarded by others (even as uninformed as they are) as sub par. So, what's the point? That her parents should have done things like everyone else so that the mainstream kids couldn't make her feel bad? Where do you draw the line in conforming, at the expense of your principles and beliefs about what is good for your children, so that no one can ever possibly make them feel bad for being different?

[judejude]

Originally Posted by heartmama

Roar regarding tv, we are radical unschoolers and we do not have cable, and there is a limit to how much time electronic media gets here. Not all RU's have neutral feelings about media. I just want to point that out.

Regarding your last post, I have to say, it goes the other more more often than not. Most RU's I know BEGAN with school and switched to RU later.

This is true for my dd -- her TV time is limited so she is forced to be creative about how she spends her time. I think we have more difficulties than we would have if she were always homeschooled (we'll be going into our second year of unschooling). Of everyone we know who HS their TV is very limited (if they have one at all).


That is true too--- we started out in school and then I pulled her out. We also have many friends in the same situation. Kids with special needs, especially, who school was horrible for.

[judejude]

[QUOTE=UnschoolnMa]
Another thing is that I think we all get a certain amount of having to work past frustration just in living our lives. I have been frustrated with my children a time or 5 but I don't just get to stop being a parent. My dog was a huge PITA when she was a puppy but I still dealt with her. We've been honest with the kids that there will be hard stuff and hard to deal with people. We work it out one way or another. Knitting was hard, but I stuck it out. I took breaks but I came back to it time and time again at my own pace. Crochet is proving to be harder, but I will get there. Or maybe I wont. But you can bet it's going to be my decision and not someone elses. [Quote=UnschoolnMa]


This is true!
My daughter has an anxiety disorder and we did that whole "she has to learn to deal with real life and work through the anxiety" thing.
Ummm, that didn't work. What it did was turn her more and more into an emotional basket case.

She has to deal with every day things that are hard for her and that she has to work through....things she has no choice about. Thank goodness I could take her out of an environment that cause her so much anxiety.
And to whoever posted that that's how you deal with anxiety---you expose them to small doses of it for them to work through it---- well, I have a hard time believing that school offers "small doses"...unless you have a very specific and different school in mind.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by yooper

I suspect that if my parents felt that a "systematic and regular" learning progression should be forced on me, I would not be playing to this day. I have picked up two other instruments as an adult with the same pattern....spurts here and there. I see nothing wrong with it being directed by the child (or adult for that matter). It is very possible to pick up music on a sporatic schedule. In fact I think it is better to take breaks when your interest wanes. I have found time and time again that when I take a break, I come back refreshed and often play much better than I was when I was struggling with not wanting to do it.

This closely parallels my own experience and how I feel about it. I'm a fairly accomplished piano player, and I would not have gotten to this point if my parents had pushed me.

Originally Posted by Roar

Did your music teacher support you not practicing for months at a time?

My music teacher worried at first that my parents might feel she was not dong her job if I did not progress at a certain rate, but once that was cleared up she was fine with me not practicing.

Originally Posted by Roar

Did you ever think that wasn't a fair way to spend their lesson time if you hadn't done your part?

Yooper can speak for me again :

Originally Posted by Yooper

My job is to do as much to help the student during the half hour I am being paid. What they choose to do with that help is up to them and (unfortunately) thier parents. I suspect that many of the students I have taught practice very little. The ones that do practice more, progress faster. But I still encourage the people that do not practice to continue lessons if they enjoy them. In some cases, lessons are the only times they bring the instrument out. So they progress by one half hour a week. It is still progress and if they are happy, I am happy.

I had a bit of a crisis when I was 11 over practicing. It was honestly physically and mentally painful to me. I loved my lessons, though, and visiting with my music teacher, and I desperately wanted to keep that connection to her and to the music world. At that time, that's essentially what my parents were paying for, and, bless them, they were fine with that.

I eventually got over the practice issue. I couldn't have put it into words then (and thankfully wasn't expected to justify myself) but looking back I know that it was a reaction to the tedium of methodical practicing and anxiety over expectations. It took me a while to get past that and back to where I was doing it for my own reasons, because I wanted to. But meanwhile, like I said, it was important to me to keep that connection.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by deeporgarten

Well, I don't agree with the radical unschooling philosophy because I think that it is an adult idea superimposed upon the child--it CAN be just as problematic as any other top-down decision.

So in essence, it's impossible not to impose one's will on one's children, because by deciding not to impose one's will, one is imposing one's will not to impose? Wow! :

How about this? In our family we meet once a week and talk about how things are going. We check in on various areas of balance in our lives. I ask the kids how they think we're doing as a family on each of the areas (balance of active vs. inactive time, nutritional balance, sleep-wake balance, scheduled vs. unscheduled time, social vs. solitary time, etc.). If they have concerns, or if I do, we discuss them and brainstorm solutions. Sometimes one of the suggestions is "how about the parent just makes the child do such-and-such?" Generally when these suggestions arise they come from the kids, though occasionally I'll raise the possibility if it's been or tried with partial success or on a related matter ("do you just want me to make you do it?"). Sometimes, generally only briefly, from one meeting until the next, the kids have decided to try out a top-down regimen. The one exception is music practicing -- they have kept this as a top-down regimen for almost a year now ("if I neglect my daily practice then you should cancel my lesson") and I've never had to cancel a lesson.

I'm not sure there are many unschooling parents who would refuse to take on the role of 'enforcer' or 'compeller' if they were specifically asked to take on that role by their child.

Miranda

[Elowyn]

Originally Posted by Roar

Further, my suggestion not that children should be forced to do unpleasant things for the sake of doing them, but rather that sometimes certain kids (and you may have never been around an anxious perfectionist type of personality so you may not understand this) will avoid something out of fear that is actually something they will love. I also think it presumes too much to think that young children will always be born with an innate sense of how to learn any given thing such as not to need adult support to find the road.

Yes! This was definitely me as a child (and described a good friend as a child, as well.) I liken it to nudging a child towards trying asparagus, when he's decided he hates it without trying it, but you know, based on his other preferences, that if he'd give it a whirl, he'd love it.

That's really my major beef with unschooling, if you will, that it's so very child-driven. I can't even begin to count the number of things I do now and enjoy very much, or feel it was very useful in retrospect to have done/learned about, that required a fair bit of nudging by parents to get into, and I'm not sure I'd ever have investigated on my own, or even if they were neutrally offered to me as options.

I think it's great that it works for other families, but I know it wouldn't have worked for me as a child (or at least I wouldn't be doing/enjoying many of the things I'm into today) and I don't feel comfortable with it when thinking about how best to educate my child(ren.)

[judejude]

Originally Posted by deeporgarten

Well, I don't agree with the radical unschooling philosophy because I think that it is an adult idea superimposed upon the child--it CAN be just as problematic as any other top-down decision. It can create a disconnect from the individual child's needs.

It is my strong opinion that some kids thrive with unschooling and some do not. Not every child procedes to their best self with a low-interventionist approach to learning. If one's belief is too strong it might drown out contrary cues from your child. If you listen to your child's cues, they might lead you away from "pure" unschooling.

It seems better to stay open-minded and flexible than adhere to something that can lean towards dogmatism. Once you have a label it sort of creates a box to live in, just a different kind of box.

Well, for me that is part of unschooling--- finding what works best for your child and then going that direction. My child is not good with out structure and so I know I have to keep her going with things. That doesn't mean I set up a schedule of what I'm gonig to make her do, it just means that Io have to help her through the thought process and make suggestions, etc.
That is what is so great about it--- you can look at your childs personality and interests and then use that as a guide.

I don't think it is about forcing them into just another box. Yes, you've made the decision to unschool, but you aven't made the decision about what they will spend their time doing or what YOU want them to be interested in. That's the whole point of unschooling.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire

What I genuinely worry about with some unschoolers is this: I suspect that conscientious unschooling involves a great deal of work and responsiveness on the part of the parent -- that is, when a kid brings up deadly nightshade (like mine did), to immediately stop what you're doing, google "deadly nightshade," read about it, look at pictures of it, talk about tomatoes and potatoes and atropine, and make a note to go to the library later for deadly nightshade info.

Responsiveness, yes, but work, not so much. I would have enjoyed talking about nightshade with my child, I would have suggested further sources if she seemed interested and stayed involved if that sort of flowed naturally out of it, but I wouldn't have made a unit study out of it. I mean, by the time we got to the library, she might have wanted to look for books on fairies instead. And that's okay. Not everything has to be delved into in depth.

Originally Posted by CB

However, I genuinely do worry about the outcome you're describing, Rynna, with some parents who -- for all intents and purposes -- let their kids play video games all day (or whatever) and their child is functionally illiterate by age 18 but has a score of five million in Doom.

And that would be pretty sad. But unschooling doesn't mean you have to allow conditions that will allow that to happen. Just because I reject parent-led and coercive teaching methods doesn't mean I would sit idly by while my child played Doom nonstop for 18 years. I would see that as an indication that something was deeply wrong, that either there was an addictive quality to the game that he was possessed by or that there was something in his life, depression or maybe something about our family dynamics, that he was seeking to escape. That goes way beyond unschooling principles into illness.

Do you really believe that any child in a loving, rich environment would choose that?

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by Elowyn

That's really my major beef with unschooling, if you will, that it's so very child-driven. I can't even begin to count the number of things I do now and enjoy very much, or feel it was very useful in retrospect to have done/learned about, that required a fair bit of nudging by parents to get into, and I'm not sure I'd ever have investigated on my own, or even if they were neutrally offered to me as options.

I think it's great that it works for other families, but I know it wouldn't have worked for me as a child (or at least I wouldn't be doing/enjoying many of the things I'm into today) and I don't feel comfortable with it when thinking about how best to educate my child(ren.)

In other words, you don't trust that you or your children could find many things you would enjoy doing, on your/their own or by your/their own choice? Do you still feel that way about yourself? If not, what has changed that you are now capable of waking up to the joys and richness of life and saying "I want to do that! And that, and that, and that!"? Are you sure that you really weren't capable of that as a child? Are you sure that the nudging, in some insidious way, didn't undermine that ability?

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Yooper

As for my lesson teacher, she was paid. Even if I did not practice, something could always be gained from my time with her. I teach lessons myself from time to time and frankly I have no problem with a student that chooses not to practice. My job is to do as much to help the student during the half hour I am being paid. What they choose to do with that help is up to them and (unfortunately) thier parents.

Thanks for explaining. It was interesting to hear your perspective. My opinion is that is very reasonable for a teacher to expect a student to uphold their part of the bargain. For some teachers it is all about the paycheck, but for others there is more to it. I think it is reasonable for a teacher to decide what kind of students they wish to work with. When my son started an instrument his teacher was very clear on two things - she's not interested in teaching kids who don't want to be there and she isn't interested in spending time with kids who don't practice. I think that is quite reasonable.