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Help Re: The Pearls  

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
Please help me out here. In our community there are several people who are big proponents of To Train Up A Child. They pass out the book, recommend the book, and there was even a class given to a group of women based on the the premises in the book. I just found out that it is even being recommended in the publications and classes from the Religious.

I can't just stand by and let this happen. Here's the problem: The people advocating it see a problem with jellyfish parenting so this is their solution. But, they believe all the stuff about spanking being biblical. I did for years. So I have to present in it in such a way so as not to challenge their Religion, but to *gently* get them to reassess their beliefs.

There is going to be another class for ladies (I didn't go to the training/discipline ones I would have become to outraged. Not good for my stress levels.) I want to stand up and give a brief outline and then maybe a hand out. So what I want from you all is this:

What are the most important KEY elements of the huge errors in TTUAC. What are the few things I should focus on? I'm afraid once I get started I won't be able to stop. I would like to leave them with some thoughts and questions in their heads so that they want to pursue it more.....


HELP ME PLEASE - Thank you!
post #2 of 31
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" would be a good start.

"How would Jesus have us raise our children?" Assuming a Christian perspective, I think that's the Pearls' target audience.

"G-d loves us, we should love our children."

The essential problem with people like the Pearls and Dobson and Ezzo, et al, is that they don't feel that children deserve to be treated as humans. But if you suggest that to their followers you'll probably get a defensive response. They also assume that all behavior is deliberate enemy action.
post #3 of 31
Barbara colorosso also has an issue with jellyfish parents AND with brick wall parents (like the pearls). She talks about being a backbone parent.

The Pearl's advocate child abuse. Period.
post #4 of 31
Maybe instead of talking about what's wrong with the Pearls, you could recommend a Christian GD alternative? I've heard good things about the idea of "grace-based discipline," and this website seems to have a lot of stuff about it: http://www.aolff.org/ . There's also the Gentle Christian Mothers website (they could probably give you good advice there, if you haven't tried there already).
post #5 of 31
post #6 of 31
I have no help for you- other than to reiterate the child abuse statement made by a PP- but I wanted to say that I just read their stuff the other night. It was linked in another thread here, and I swear if I had found it randomly I would have thought it was satirical. It was the height of absurdity, and I would have found it humorous if it wasn't for real. Thoes people are crazy. Certifiably nuts.
post #7 of 31
P.S. Another good thing to mention is the child who died as a result of the Pearls' discipline techniques:

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/418676.html

And here is a review of the book from a source that seems to be conservative and Christian (not opposed to corporal punishment in general):
http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/20...y-michael.html

Couple of good quotes:
Quote:
... the Pearls place parental control and external conformity above what I consider respect for the image of God in the child.
Quote:
he Pearls openly advocate switching babies with branches, rulers or paddles. And let's keep in mind that the switching can be adminstered in artificially created situations. In other words - situations are deliberately created in which babies will be switched with tree branches, rulers or paddles. At this point my assessment is that this is abusive. A baby cannot problem-solve situations in the way that an older child can. Whipping them to produce a behaviour is out of proportion with their intellectual and emotional capabilities. The Pearls approach is pure behaviourism, and it overlooks the normal developmental process of infants.
The same blog criticizes the Pearls' theology:
http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/20...er-joy_30.html
post #8 of 31
Here is a portion of a letter I sent a fellow Christian mom last fall that may help some:

PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL, and SEXUAL ABUSE IN MARRIAGE
On their website, Debi Pearl quotes a number of things which I find to be extremely damaging and not at all supportive of a true Christian relationship in a desire to serve God. For instance, in on section a woman writes that her husband is verbally and emotionally abusive, has had numerous affairs, and is hurting her daughter, yet Debi Pearl states that the woman needs to stay with her husband because God hates all divorce. Yes, God hates divorce, but he also addresses infidelity and divorce in the bible (Matthew 5, Matthew 19) as well as saying that if anyone harms His children, they are better off to hang a millstone around their neck. Debi manipulates scripture to say that God will not save the woman's child if she leaves her husband.... how audacious to declare that God, who created the earth, will not save a CHILD if her mother leaves her abusive husband! Many times in an abusive home, the abuse turns from the spouse over time to the children as well, which I am sure is not to God's pleasure. In addition, it says that the husband is an unbeliever. While Debi declares that the woman must stay with her husband because it is God's will, God in scripture says that he wishes for believers to not be yoked with unbelievers (2 Corinthians 6), but if they are, they should remain only if the unbeliever is willing. If the unbeliever is abusive and having extramarital affairs, what show of desire is there to remain yoked with the believer? (1 Corinthians 7:15-16) She goes on to say that if you get divorced and remarry, God will not be in your marriage or your life. How ignorant is she to proclaim that God will no longer love the woman and bless her life because she has left an abusive home? (Romans 8- Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ)
Also, even if the woman is at fault or the divorce was for invalid reasons, the new marriage is no less valid. We live in God's forgiveness - not in His Law which Christ has fulfilled for us. Even where divorce is clearly wrong, it is also forgivable as are any other sins once they are forgiven. It is sinful to stay in an abusive marriage that they have tried to fix, but the other person refuses to get help - the abused person is breaking the 5th commandment (murdering themselves even if only in their heart), the 1st commandment (making her husband an idol over God and his love for them and for their safety), and really you can apply it to many other commandments! She is also breaking Ephesians 5:22 in that she's not submitting to her husband as to the Lord but she's submitting to her husband as the devil who hates her and wants her to burn in hell. I'm attacking the woman because it is clear enough how despicable the husband's sins are. God may hate divorce, but he also hates her husband who has hardened his heart and who is a lost cause to God.

PHYSICAL ABUSE OF WIFE AND CHILD
Later in the answer to the letter, Michael Pearl chimes in saying that it is only abuse if the husband hits his child and a red mark remains for at least two hours. TWO HOURS. Let's say it only remains for an hour and a half... oops! not abuse? I honestly think not. The emotional effects of abuse last long beyond the physical implications. He then says to send your husband to jail (something that is not likely to happen... physical abuse of a spouse or child rarely resorts to imprisonment), and to spend the time he is in jail writing love letters and having steamy phone calls. Honestly, if you have had need to send your husband to jail for beating you and your child, how does one think that God would desire you to stay with that person? He also says "If your abusing husband fully understands that you have the power of the law behind you, he will learn to keep his hands in his pockets" which is exactly the opposite... those who have been convicted of abuse in the past are the most often repeat offenders!

SEXUAL ABUSE OF A CHILD
One of the most horrifying recommendations the Pearls make I believe is this:
"But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception."

First off, the average stay of a person who has raped a child in jail is THREE YEARS. That's it. THREE YEARS. Pedophiles are also extremely highly likely to be repeat offenders. My best friend in high school's younger sister (grade school) was sexually abused by her stepfather, who had also raped his two grown daughters from a previous marriage. I also know of another Christian woman whose grandmother welcomed her husband back into her life after he had sexually abused his children, and in repeat, he sexually molested her (his granddaughter). Even if you would be lucky enough to keep the man out of your life while your children grew up, welcoming him back would open up your grandchildren to the abuse! And how would accepting that man back into your life benefit you or your children? How would you ever trust your husband? How would forcing your child to face their rapist daily be good for them? I think it would be the exact opposite... The Lord says he HATES those who commit offenses such as rape, so why do the Pearls know "better" than the Lord? (Galatians 5 says those who commit acts such as rape will not inherit the kingdom of God)

It also disturbs me that repeatedly Debi refers to her husband as righteous when in the bible, God is who is referred to as righteous, not people. No person is righteous without sin in this world, especially her husband. God's righteousness covers us through His gift of grace as we follow Him, but that does not make us without sin or Righteous in God's eyes by our own actions. (Romans 3:10-12, 6:23)

PHYSICAL ABUSE OF A CHILD
When it comes to children, there are many things wrong about their idea of "training" children (which is biblically unsound and distorts scripture from its original text meaning). They continually use Proverbs 22:6 justifying the idea of training a child like training a dog, when the original Hebrew word translated to English as "train" means teach or guide." They also repeatedly misuse verses in Proverbs relating to a "rod", which in the original Hebrew context refers to guidance and correction, not beating with a literal rod In addition, there is not a single incident of a young child being hit for correction in the bible using the translation of the original text. One of their comments on their site makes me physically ill:

"Please give me a description of the switch or rod of which you so often speak. I wish you could send me one so I could see it.
The rod we speak of is a plumbing supply line that can be bought at any hardware store or large department store. It is a slim, flexible, plastic tubing that supplies water to sinks, and toilets. Ask for "¼ inch supply line." They cost less than one dollar. I always give myself one swat before I swat the child to remind myself how much force to exert. It stings the skin without bruising or damaging tissue. It’s a real attention-getter. Michael demonstrates its use in our new Seminar videos."

This information is found under BABIES on their website. Hitting your BABY or CHILD with SUPPLY LINE is abuse. Cut and dry abuse. In another article regarding children, he goes on to say that if you don't "discipline" your child the way that he states, not only will you have unruly whiny children who hate you, but they will not love God or be saved. I assure you, no where in God's plan of salvation does it say you must have been hit as a child in order to become a saint in His kingdom and experience his salvation. Rather God says to love our neighbor as ourselves (Luke 10) and whatever we do to the least of these we do also to Him (Matthew 25). Puts things into perspective... lead our child in grace and love to the Lord showing them forgiveness and gentle guidance to what they can do right, or whipping them mirroring as our Lord was crucified and despised. I doubt any adult would wish to be whipped if they did something displeasing to another person, nor do I doubt any God-honoring Christian would seek to whip our Lord.

While spanking your child and she cries and is upset about it (very obviously if you are hitting your child with supply line, they are going to be in pain and not happy about it), Michael Pearl says this:
"When she screams or flees, calmly follow through by physically subduing her. Sit on her, if you have to, and slowly explain that you will not tolerate this resistance. Explain in a normal tone (She will eventually stop screaming and listen) that you are going to give her, say, five licks for the original offense and an additional two licks for the fit. Slowly apply the five licks, counting out loud. When I say slowly, I mean with a thirty second gap between each lick and a calm explanation to the screaming child that you are not the least impressed except that you are going to spank harder and she still gets the additional two licks plus one more for her ongoing screaming. When you have finally arrived at five well- anticipated and carefully counted licks, say, “OK, your spanking is over; that is the five licks you got for hitting your brother, but now I must give you two more for trying to run away.” Give her one lick and say, “Now, that is one of the licks for running away; you have one more coming.” Give the second lick, and then calmly and slowly explain that all her licks are over now, except for the one additional lick she incurred for continuing to scream during the spanking. After you have finished, tell her that you are going to let her up now, if she stops screaming, otherwise you are going to give her one additional lick. If she stops, or at least makes a great effort to, then you have won. You may never have to go through this horrible time again. But, if she is continuing to scream in defiance, you have the option of continuing to warn and spank, or of ceasing here with a parting warning: “Next time you better not run and throw a fit; for if you do, you will only get more licks and harder ones.” "
So now it goes beyond their idea of "discipline" to punishing your child for not liking being punished! Abuse compounding abuse does not make any child happier or more willing to receive the abuse, it just further breaks their will given to them by God. (Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.) I assure you, no child likes being beaten and most will resist it to the best of their abilities. It does not make a child love their parents or God more, it physically and emotionally scars them.
The Pearls advocate beating of an infant in numerous places throughout their book "To Train Up a Child". which in no way is biblical or even humane.

The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe whipping their own 4 month old daughter (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of "every child" (p.2) for "Christians and non-Christians" (p.5) and for "every transgression" (p.1). Parents who don't whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferent, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are "creating a Nazi" (p.45). On p.60 of the book, they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them "to get up." On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying. On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming. The Pearls recommend pulling a nursing infant's hair (p.7), and describe tripping their non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water (p.67). They recommend ignoring an infant's bumped head when he falls to the floor, and ignoring skinned knees (p.86).
The overall character of the Pearls is abhorrent and dishonest. They have no child development credentials, no religious credentials or training, and they ignore Christ's instructions to forgive seventy times seven and be merciful. Recently they have been investigated by the Department of Human Services and government of Tennessee for abuse.

You may say "well I read the book and took the good and left the bad/what I didn't agree with/what didn't make sense," and that's fine, however recommending it to another new mother, she may then go and read it, and take what you thought to be bad about it and think it good! When recommending a book that claims to be Christian yet is so poorly in ignorance and opposite of scripture's true meaning is setting someone up for spiritual damage not only possibly for themselves, but also for their family. While you may not agree with all aspects of my style of parenting, there is a distinct line between advocating a different manner of parenting/relationships and advocating the potential for abuse. Please believe me that I am not accusing you of abusing your children or allowing such horrible things to happen in your marital relationship, however my concern over the promotion of the Pearls teachings has never left my mind or prayers lately especially when thinking of the fact that it *could* lead to a bad situation with any family in our group unintentionally.
post #9 of 31
Bravo!!!! That is a truely wonderful letter. Would you mind if I send that to my pregnant sister? (giving you proper credit of course) Some ladies at her church have given her that book and are really pressing for her to use it when her babe comes
post #10 of 31
Thank you so much for the beautiful letter. Wonderful insight, I will print it up as well.
I had heard of the book but never investigated anything before today. I was reading the Pearls' website and literally became nauseous. Outright abuse. Swatting a six month old for dropping a bowl of food? Their logic on their "Too young to spank" section didn't even make sense, they were trying their best to twist the scripture into their view.
What I would also want these mothers to think about is the long-term effects. The behavior modification part would happen quickly with a young child but what will they retain in the long run. Will they understand the true meaning of their actions? Will there be a chance for self reflection, of learning from mistakes or will they always act out of fear.
post #11 of 31
I read their website homepage once (barf) and my first impressions were that they advocate deliberately setting up a situatoin where they know the child will be disobidient, like tempting them to do something wrong, and then hitting them for disobedience. My thought on that is: Tempting your own child into sin or disobedience is evil. God doesn't want us to tempt others.

Secondly they equate training a child with training a dog (barf) and specifically mention certified service dogs. My thought is: Certified service dogs are NOT trained through hitting or physical discipline, but through positive reinforcement. So the whole premise of training through hitting is just "off", yk?

ETA: Great letter, too!
post #12 of 31
Feel free to use any part of it... I had help from a number of friends on other boards especially www.gentlechristianmothers.com with writing it, and a portion was taken from a page linked from here (the location of some of the incidents with page numbers so I didn't have to go reread it all to find them): http://www.kjsl.com/~lindav/notrain.htm
post #13 of 31
Good for you for standing up against child abuse.

I know not everyone here loves Dr. Sears but he is another option for mamas seeking Christian discipline advice. I don't like his section on how to spank "less abusively" (or whatever he calls it) but he at least acknowledges that spanking is wrong. For someone considering beating an infant with plumbing supplies, this is a big step!
post #14 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benji'sMom
I read their website homepage once
I just visited their site and I can't even read it. I read maybe three paragraphs and I have this strong urge to scoop up my 13 month old angel and just hug her. She's sleeping so I'll let her sleep, but I just can't believe that. I just want to hold my children, that all makes me so sick.

Sarah
post #15 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thank you so much all of you for taking the time to write such thoughtful responses. The letter was especially appreciated! I find it so hard to believe that people actually follow this "advice." I was given the book as a baby gift and only got part way through before I threw it across the room I was so mad. I still haven't read the whole thing. I don't think my stomach couild handle it. We'll see how this goes. : Thanks again. I really appreciate it.
post #16 of 31
Also, remember that the root word of discipline is disciple which means "taught one". There are scriptures that mention the use of the rod or staff which at face value may seem to mean that it promotes spanking. But in the Bible the rod or staff is used in connection with "shepherding" or leading, guiding gently. A shepherd does not use his rod or staff to beat his sheep into submission. It really makes me angry when people twist scripture to fit their own warped ideas. If they spent a little more time reading the Bible instead of "Bible-based" quack parenting books, their children would be much better off.
post #17 of 31
I would show them the letter a pp posted, and reccomend the use of people like Dr.Sears and also the book "biblical parenting" by crystal lutton. The pearls and dobson are abuse........you really need to bring this to light, they may not like it or you after it, but at least you stood up for your conviction. Jesus would not want us to abuse our children, i highly doubt jesus was EVER spanked.
post #18 of 31
Here's something about biblical spanking I found somewhere on MDC that makes so much sense (though I'm not any shape or form of Christian, or a monotheist at all...just a theologian )

The idea of biblical spanking is often reinforced with the verse "spare the rod and spoil the child", however we must think as those who wrote the bible thought. The were referring to a shepherd's rod, used to guide sheep. A proper shepherd would know that you NEVER cane a sheep with your rod, you use it to guide and set a boundary line for them to follow. To translate out of metaphor, we see that rod = boundaries. Spare the boundaries, spoil the child. And we all agree that children need healthy boundaries, and those without them are essentially "spoiled". Boundaries do not imply violence, and hence the verse is no valid excuse to spank.

Edit: Being raised fairly crunchy, i have never read the Pearls until now. I was cautioned from my midwife to stay far, far, far away from anything written by them, and dutifully did so, until now.

All I can say is oh, my freaking god. It's abuse! It's blatant abuse! They advocate pulling a nursing babies hair when they bite! That's horrific
post #19 of 31
thats exactly what me and dh were discussing the other night when christians bring up that verse. Its just how these and certain others interpret (wrongly i might add) the bible.
post #20 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoma
All I can say is oh, my freaking god. It's abuse! It's blatant abuse! They advocate pulling a nursing babies hair when they bite! That's horrific
That one just makes me want to cry. DS2 sometimes starts to nurse with something in his mouth (a Cheerio or some such), and I don't notice it. Every time he does that, he nips me because he's trying to nurse and eat at the same time. I cannot even begin to imagine what goes through someone's head to make them think that this confusion (between nursing and eating) deserves hair-pulling. These people truly scare me.
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