atheist/agnostic tribe - Page 17

[beansmama]

Originally Posted by lmk1

You sound like me...I'm just atheist, and in addition I don't come from any kind of religious background. I feel that a lot of these "religion replacement" traditions (like Sunday school) are because people grew up with religion and are not sure how to replace the social void when they're no longer part of that community. DH's family is pretty atheist, but they go to a UU fellowship and I don't think there's any "fruitiness" involved...they have speakers on various subjects and fun get togethers. Although, I remember when ds was born they wanted to do some naming ceremony with him, and I thought that it was giving it "spiritual meaning" that I personally didn't feel I needed, so we didn't do it.

Yeah - they had a dedication ceremony, it might be different than the naming one - but they did talk about the girls name. It was more for the church - dedicating themselves to help raise the girl, but yeah, pretty spiritual...the girl (5?) was totally embarrassed, kinda cute though, lol. I wouldn't do it with my baby...

It's definitely to fill the social void. Funny thing is, i never really felt "connected" when i attended my (christian) church. It's just being *part* of a group, i suppose. And i'm just plain lonely. Hell, i'd be happy just having a couple families come over for a potluck or bbq at a park once a month or so! I just want to make connections - just not deal with the quasi-religious liberal BS in the process though

[beansmama]

Originally Posted by hollyvangogh

I guess I disagree with this philosophy. I don't want my daughter to be tolerant of religious delusions, even though I do want her to be tolerant of the people who hold them. I think the evidence, and rational thinking lead to the conclusion that there is no god and I want her to know that's what I think.

Okay, i guess i should figure out how to do that "multi quote" thing...i hope my multiple postings aren't irritating anyone too much, lol. Sorry!

I *so* agree with this. I feel like UU is too tolerant of religious delusions - therefore making it out of my comfort zone. We should certainly teach our kids to be respectful of people. I don't want to my kids going up to strangers preaching the anti-gospel or teasing them or anything, but at the same time, i want my kids to be full aware that these people are, quite frankly, totally ridiculous in their beliefs.

[pixiekisses]

Originally Posted by hollyvangogh

(..) I also think it's important to teach children *about* other beliefs/religions. If I had been taught the truth about my former religion before I got proselytized I would have known better, kwim?

Yeah, totally.

Originally Posted by hollyvangogh

I guess I disagree with this philosophy. I don't want my daughter to be tolerant of religious delusions, even though I do want her to be tolerant of the people who hold them. I think the evidence, and rational thinking lead to the conclusion that there is no god and I want her to know that's what I think.

Originally Posted by beansmama

(..) I *so* agree with this. I feel like UU is too tolerant of religious delusions - therefore making it out of my comfort zone. We should certainly teach our kids to be respectful of people. I don't want to my kids going up to strangers preaching the anti-gospel or teasing them or anything, but at the same time, i want my kids to be full aware that these people are, quite frankly, totally ridiculous in their beliefs.

Yes, indeed, I agree.

[beansmama]

I'm totally frustrated right now!

This isn't really atheist related, so i'm not sure if it's okay to post it here - but we CAN talk about life in general, right? Hope so...lol! ANYWAY!

So, my mom just called me. My brother and I live in Eugene (not together, just in the same town) and she lives an hour away from us. He's 21, total party guy (drinking, drugs, etc), irresponsible, etc. I do love him - but disagree with a lot of aspects of his life (did i mention he's CHRISTIAN? great example, right?). Anyway, his car just got stolen last night for the second time in a year.

This isn't his fault - eugene has very high rates of car theft, especially for hondas. His doors were probably locked...

Anyway, my mom just called me to ask if she could tell the cops/insurance agents that she was letting DH and I borrow the car when it was stolen. The car is in her name. Apparently, my brother has a DUI and insurance will go sky high (as in a couple hundred more than it currently is) if they know HE was driving the car.

I would possibly say no problem, except my DH is 2 hours away on a business trip and I don't have a license (yeah, i'm 25 and don't drive...). I don't think it's okay to lie to the cops if questioned, telling them yes, DH was driving the car and we were at my brothers (in the middle of the night? wtf?) when it was stolen. This especially seems wrong because DH wasn't even anywhere NEAR eugene...so it's a totally obviously lie that could easily be disproven! I doubt he'd be comfortable with this.

My parents have helped us out. Probably about $700 towards the wedding, plus they let us use their van when our car broke down. My mom told me i wouldn't even need to TELL DH! WTH? I told her i am not comfortable lying to my husband and also not comfortable giving her permission to say he was driving the car - therefore making it highly likely that he'd have to lie to cops/insurance people, especially without talking to him first.

She started saying family should do anything for each other and she'd do anything for her kids and blah blah blah. I'm irritated she's trying to guilt me into this. I'm not doing it - but i feel like she's going to use it against me later and not help us out if we truly need it.

Ugh. I just needed to vent. This is totally not cool IMO. I don't know if she thought because we're atheist (and therefore have no morals???) that we'd be okay with lying? I have morals, and think this is totally unethical and immoral. Gah. Opinions? Advice?

[EFmom]

Well, personally I wouldn't. I would find it to be unethical. Insurance fraud isn't something I'd be comfortable undertaking.

And no, I don't think it's OK to ask someone to commit insurance fraud because they are family.

[pixiekisses]

I certainly wouldn't do it.
I would never commit insurance fraud, not for family either, that's bull saying family should do anything for eachother. Not anything, not commiting crimes or lying.

[super mamabug]

Completely inappropriate and out of line for a parent to ask their child to break the law. She is the one who should be protecting you not asking you to jeapordize your own family. Don't do it. She is out of line not you.

[beansmama]

Thanks for the replies! Insurance fraud...i guess i should've thought of THOSE words and mentioned them to her! That might've done the trick.

Thankfully, the car was found, undamaged. She called to let me know, and didn't mention our previous convo at all, so i'm just going to let it slide.

Thanks for letting me vent!

[teale]

Originally Posted by beansmama

Thanks for the replies! Insurance fraud...i guess i should've thought of THOSE words and mentioned them to her! That might've done the trick.

Thankfully, the car was found, undamaged. She called to let me know, and didn't mention our previous convo at all, so i'm just going to let it slide.

Thanks for letting me vent!

I'm glad you found the car, but man, what a crappy situation to be put in.


In regard to our discussion about teaching our kids about the ridiculousness that can be organized religion- how do you teach them, in a gentle way without coming across as militant as those who are fundamentalist in their religious beliefs. I suppose that's my greatest fear- I don't want DS to think he can't question me, because I think questioning is the biggest part of figuring out what's a load of crap and what isn't.

So far, we're hopeful to keep any propaganda out of his life, and explain things as they come up, but I really do want him to feel free to make his own choices. I'll definitely engage him in how I feel about things, and explain them to him, but I don't want him to feel like I did with regard to religion growing up. I was petrified that if I didn't believe as my parents did, they wouldn't love me. And, partially, that was true, but I shudder to think that even on the opposite side of the religion spectrum, that I may cause those feelings if I come across too militant or strong or even make him believe what I believe.

Does that make sense? I suppose a lot of this will have to do with how we deal with questions and how our family life is, but I don't want to take his right to make those decisions for his self. I believe that 'spirituality' is just as much a personal decision as who you vote for, and I don't think anyone should tell you what you should or shouldn't do.

That doesn't sound too wishy washy does it?

[super mamabug]

As far as teaching children I see no need to "teach" atheism as I find it difficult to teach non-belief. My parenting plan in regards to religion spirituality is -
1) Get them excited about science. We all have a need for awe and wonder in our lives. Teach them about biology, evolution, ecosystems and astronomy. Teach them to wonder at their small place in the universe.

2) Teach them the history and mythology of our species. The great hero stories of Greece and India. Teach them these stories along side biblical ones. Put them in their context. Show genesis along with other creation myths. Show Jesus with Horus, Mithras, and Krishna. They will live in a religious world and I do not want them being ignorant of that.

3) Teach them to question authority, and yes this includes me. This is a big one. It is difficult to buy into religion when you have been taught to question. Most religions do not welcome true questioning. One is expected to believe and have faith. If you are accustomed to questioning everything, it is difficult to 'fall in line' in order to have religion.

4) Be honest about my thoughts on god and how I arrived at them. Answer their questions as they come up. I will not preach atheism, but I won't hide it and I will answer questions fully.

5) Be prepared for the big questions. They will ask them. If you don't provide the answers someone else will.

I really recommend "parenting beyond belief". It is an excellent compilations of essays and stories for athiest/agnostic parents.

[hollyvangogh]

Originally Posted by super mamabug

I really recommend "parenting beyond belief". It is an excellent compilations of essays and stories for athiest/agnostic parents.

Yes!

[beansmama]

super mamabug has some really great ideas! I'm not big into science (don't throw stones, please, lol!) but DH is so I'm sure he'll instill a love of it in our children.

I don't really feel like there is anything to "teach" about being atheist? Just the truth, really. That may sound as militant as a religious nut, but the truth speaks for itself...and for crying out loud...it IS true, hahaha!

I'm excited to get the parenting beyond belief & raising free thinkers books. I definitely agree that kids should be able to question authority! They shouldn't be *rude*...but nothing is rude about politely disagreeing or wondering!

[treehugz]

Originally Posted by super mamabug

As far as teaching children I see no need to "teach" atheism as I find it difficult to teach non-belief. My parenting plan in regards to religion spirituality is -
1) Get them excited about science. We all have a need for awe and wonder in our lives. Teach them about biology, evolution, ecosystems and astronomy. Teach them to wonder at their small place in the universe.

2) Teach them the history and mythology of our species. The great hero stories of Greece and India. Teach them these stories along side biblical ones. Put them in their context. Show genesis along with other creation myths. Show Jesus with Horus, Mithras, and Krishna. They will live in a religious world and I do not want them being ignorant of that.

3) Teach them to question authority, and yes this includes me. This is a big one. It is difficult to buy into religion when you have been taught to question. Most religions do not welcome true questioning. One is expected to believe and have faith. If you are accustomed to questioning everything, it is difficult to 'fall in line' in order to have religion.

4) Be honest about my thoughts on god and how I arrived at them. Answer their questions as they come up. I will not preach atheism, but I won't hide it and I will answer questions fully.

5) Be prepared for the big questions. They will ask them. If you don't provide the answers someone else will.\

awesome plan! thanks for sharing... i need to write these on a notecard so i can refer to them as my dd grows

[EFmom]

Super mamabug's suggestions are excellent.

To that I would add:
Teach them research and critical thinking skills.

Once I started reading the bible with a critical eye, and researching how and where the manuscripts were obtained and translated, along with the political climate of the day, Christianity just fell apart.

[teale]

I know that you can't "teach", but for lack of a better term, I use it

Thanks for recommendations. I think for us, we're just going to be a lead by example type family, and answer questions as they come up.

Luckily, we live far away from my family who are the fundamentalist, so we don't have to be worried or concerned about constant inundation of religion. DH's family is another story though, but other then the fact that they just think we have no soul for not believing in god.

[Contrariety]

I get giddy just thinking about the day DS begins to question authority. I really do.

[hollyvangogh]

Originally Posted by Contrariety

I get giddy just thinking about the day DS begins to question authority. I really do.

Your son is lucky to have a mother who feels that way. I had great parents. But their one meaningful mistake was punishing me for questioning authority. I'm still working on undoing that programing.

[Theoretica]

Originally Posted by hollyvangogh

Your son is lucky to have a mother who feels that way. I had great parents. But their one meaningful mistake was punishing me for questioning authority. I'm still working on undoing that programing.

A HUGE 'yeah that' to this.

OMG it's been YEARS and I'm still working on it.

[teale]

Originally Posted by Contrariety

I get giddy just thinking about the day DS begins to question authority. I really do.

Love this attitude too! I still have issues with standing up to those who are in authoritarian positions.

[AngeliqueW]

Yeah! Super Mamabug! and EFmom! Great Plan!!!
Contrariety & co: My mom was the "question authority" type and while I appreciate it in many ways, I must admit that I chafed many teachers and bosses over the years. I was beyond socially awkward! I worry about the balance between free thinker and social misfit. It can be hard to navigate in a culture where the herd mentality rules. Does this make any sense?