atheist/agnostic tribe - Page 33

[Niamh]

Originally Posted by zenmumajen 

I am concerned that when my son gets a little older that he is going to ask "why is grandma, grandpa, and dad doing that mommy?". I am unsure of what I will say to him and nervous that he will want to do it with them. Of course, this will make me feel uncomfortable. Has anyone handled a similar situation?

Absolutely. My husband is Mormon and I am not. I was up until a few months into my pregnancy with my first child, but I'm not now. All of his extended family is and the vast majority of mine.
 They see daddy/grandma/grandpa/cousins/aunts/uncles praying all the time. They hear them talking about 'the church'. They are exposed to those beliefs that are so strong they are a part of who those people are. They ask questions.

Don't be unsure of what you will say to him. You have a really good opportunity right now to *plan* what you will say. The fact of the matter is, though those beliefs aren't *your* beliefs, spiritual belief is part of the human condition for the vast majority of humans throughout history. In recent history (the last few thousand years), those spiritual beliefs have been expressed through religion. You have your own little case study in your extended family. :) What *I* say varies according to the depth of the answer desired (really pay attention to the question and what the child is asking - sometimes they're asking simple, simple questions, sometimes they want more in-depth stuff) - oh, the things I could tell my kids about women and polygamy and racism in the LDS church ... but at 7 and 4, they just aren't interested in that. Explain the belief matter-of-factly. If it is appropriate to the conversation, drop in *your* beliefs, even if it's a simple "I don't believe that." You have such a good opportunity to teach him tolerance for those whose beliefs are different than his.

Don't be nervous that he'll want to do it with them. Of course he will. He's a little human and little humans emulate big humans. It's how they learn. My girls love folding their arms and praying when we visit family. They don't do it here at home, though the older one will occasionally make a big production out of praying before dinner. It's funny and cute. If she wants to do it when it's just me and asks me to pray or asks why I'm not folding my arms, I say "Because I don't have those beliefs so it would be disrespectful of me to join in. I will sit here quietly while you do it, though."

I think you should work on why it will make you uncomfortable for him to ask you a question about religion and family - would it make you uncomfortable if he asked you questions about Islam or Buddhism or Mormonism or Scientology? Stick Catholicism in with all those other belief systems and answer his questions. He will sense your uncomfortableness and (probably unconciously) let that play into his relationship with the family members, which isn't fair to them or him.

One thing I will say is that while I let family answer her (my oldest daughter is the only one remotely interested in it) questions, I draw the line quite firmly at them introducing ideas like "You need Jesus to forgive you for sins" (have I mentioned that one of my favorite things about raising a child without religion is that 'sin' is not part of her vocabulary - by the time I was 7, I couldn't wait for the next year when I got baptized at 8 and got forgiven for all my 'sins' - good lord, what kind of 'sins' can a 7 year old need to be forgiven for?), "Jesus is sad that you don't go to church." or "God loves you so much when you are a good little girl." Of course, I draw the line firmly at anybody using 'good little girl' statements anyway ... I would suggest that you get the in-laws used to the fact that while answering questions is ok, proselytizing is not.

Originally Posted by zenmumajen 

Also- DF has always said that if Leo is interested in going to church that he will take him. I understand where he is coming from but I am honestly not at all comfortable in taking him to church and really don't want him going at all even if Im not there.

I not only think you should let him take him, I think that if you want to answer his questions right when they come up (because at a young age, he'll forget he had them by the time he gets home), you should go with them. Tell his father that you want to give him the chance to concentrate on the service and you will watch your child. I took this tack with my kids and it has worked out wonderfully. In fact, I've taken them a few times when their father didn't want to go, but they did. Now that they're older and it's about sitting still for THREE HOURS, they have no interest in going. It can't be much different for a little one in your church, can it?
 

Originally Posted by zenmumajen 

Leo is going to look up to his dad and if he sees him doing the prayer at the dinner table, of course he will want to partake in it! I am not sure if I am being unreasonable but it upsets me so much thinking about it.
 

Of course he will! I think you should let him. Sit there quietly but don't fold your arms or bow your head. Just respect your partner's belief. When the question comes up, as it inevitable will, answer it right there. I'll tell you this - it will probably make your partner more uncomfortable to hear you explain your lack of belief than it will make you to see your child praying. It does look rather silly, even when you couch it in the most respectful way possible.

Are you being unreasonable? Maybe. I would say yes. But .. but but BUT ... it is what is. You are where you are right now. When I left 'the church', I went through blinding anger, moderate anger, serious unreasonableness, crazy frustration ... all those stages - just thinking about the baby blessing (where the humans with penises get to stand in a circle and bless the child while all of those with uteruses - including the one who *birthed* the baby - have to sit sedately and bow their heads) would upset me so much that I became incoherent. The best thing for your child, though, is for you to work through this and get to a better place to be answering his questions from.

Originally Posted by philomom 

Sweetie, a lot of these things should have been hashed out pre-kid. That said, you need to schedule some grown up time to talk to your dh about your feelings. This is really a topic not to be wishy washy about. How can he teach your son to be a believer if you are not one?

My husband and I were completely on the same page pre-kid. I went off script when I got pregnant and a few months into it realized that I couldn't raise a child in 'the church'. This has had to be hashed out over the first few years of my oldest child's life - and will probably still need some hashing out as our kids grow.

He can teach *his* son to be a believer if she's not, just as she can teach *her* son to be an unbeliever if he's not. This child is from both parents. That's why I agree that the parents need some serious talks to figure out how they're going to do it - how to not be wishy-washy.

What we've come to an agreement about is that each of us answer our children's questions as best we can without disparaging the other parent's beliefs. That's the biggest thing we agreed on. Mormon kids are taught to despise those who don't believe - especially those who had the opportunity to believe (like me) and turned it down - and it doesn't matter if that unbeliever is a parent or a sibling. I was not ok with that - that was my hill to die on. Luckily, he didn't want it either. However, he wanted to be sure that she wouldn't feel the same way about him for his belief. So we've both worked at being respectful of the other.

There have been times that one of his beliefs is so crazy (as most Mormon beliefs are) that I'll give her the basics and then say "You're going to have to ask him about that. I just can't wrap my head around it." Or "You're going to have to ask him. I disagree very strongly with that." There are also times as she gets older when I'll be able to be more clear about my irritation/frustration/anger about *the church* without having it affect how I or she feels about *him*, but at such a young age, that's not an option.

Originally Posted by philomom 

The things about church that folks crave are the fellowship and the ritual/tradition of it all. Create some traditions in your new family that have nothing to do with the church. Things your child/children will look forward to each year.

This is so, *so* true. What are you going to do if your child is naturally spiritual, as my oldest is? You've got to have a plan in place for him so that he doesn't turn to religion - and Catholicism as the most accessible religion - to answer that need in him.

For my daughter, I encourage fairies, Mother Nature, the earth, the moon, seasonal rituals - lots of things that I'm not terribly comfortable with myself (because of a lifetime of being told 'pagan' things are evil) to answer this need for her. So far it's working.

Build up a community so that he doesn't need to look to church for that.

[zenmumajen]

Niamh: Thank you so much for taking the time to read my concerns and I really appreciate your honesty.

I mentioned I would feel uncomfortable If my son asks "why are they praying?". I was meaning I would feel uncomfortable explaining it in front of my inlaws. You are right though, it will make me look silly and that was where my nervousness was coming from. We have decided to let our son know that if he wants to pray with them that he can. 

I think my issue with him going to church and praying is I don't want him doing something he isn't able to fully understand and there is only so much his mind will be able to comprehend when he is a child. I just want him to make an educated decision. 

It is not that I want to ban him from church because I think that he should have the opportunity to go and I don't want to take that away from him. I think I am just trying to protect him. I was forced to go to church because my step dad wanted my sister and I baptized. I didn't understand why I was there and felt a lot of judgment. I have always felt very uncomfortable in church (not just my step-father's) and I don't want him to ever feel that way or feel judged. I think I need to focus on letting go of some of my insecurities...

We really want to teach Leo about all religions as they are all interesting to us as well as emphasizing  nature. I like your idea of building up a community for him which is something we will focus on.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with me. In my post I was being really honest and openly admitting my fears, but I am just trying to realize that Leo is going to be his only little person and I have the opportunity to guide and share my own unique perspective with him 

[zenmumajen]

Originally Posted by philomom 
Sweetie, a lot of these things should have been hashed out pre-kid. That said, you need to schedule some grown up time to talk to your dh about your feelings. This is really a topic not to be wishy washy about. How can he teach your son to be a believer if you are not one? The things about church that folks crave are the fellowship and the ritual/tradition of it all. Create some traditions in your new family that have nothing to do with the church. Things your child/children will look forward to each year.

We have talked about it, and will probably be talking more about it as the issue comes up. We are going to start focusing on new traditions so that we can establish some rituals with him. I like the idea of saying a prayer at the table after we have a nice home cooked meal together and thanking the earth for the food it has given us. I found some interesting ones, at offbeatmama.com if anybody is interested. 

"How I say grace without brining capital R Religion into it" http://offbeatmama.com/2010/11/secular-grace

Edited by zenmumajen - 3/23/11 at 12:29pm

[philomom]

We didn't have a grace ritual other than looking at each other and being glad we had make it through another day of school/work, etc.

We did have a nighttime ritual where I would make a circle over their heads and say "magic circle safe and sound, till the morning sun comes round". They loved it!

[marieangela]

Reading through some of the recent posts, I feel quite lucky to have a husband who is on the same page as me with atheism and parents who accept me. I may or may not have mentioned before that my father was a priest and my mother was a nun, both Catholic (Italian and Irish, respectively).  My dad was on his way out anyway, and they met and decided to leave the church and marry.  I was baptized by a priest friend of my father at our house and went to church on holidays until I was about 7 years old and decided that it was ridiculous, but that was about the extent of my religion.  My dad is a retired sociology professor.  He is a very open minded man and got me interested in native american sprituality, thus openning me up at a young age to the fact that there were many options out there.  I always tended to look at religion academically, though.  I wrote a pretty in depth paper on shamanism in college and also took a philosphy of religion course. I have found that as I have grown older and as my kids get a little older, I've become stonger and more open about my atheist beliefs.  I, for one, was blown away in a very horrible way by Jesus Camp.  My husband laughed at the disgusted, disbelieving look on my face while we watched.  I am so glad that my parents didn't send my to ccd and make me go to church every week as a child.  I never even imagined that a parent would send a child to a camp like that, or that such a camp existed. 

One issue that I do have lately is that my husband wants to hold off on telling the boys anything at all about religion.  Im worried about what they may or may not be picking up it school and think that we ought to give them some basic understanding of what it is possible to beleive and what we do and do not believe.  I need to talk to my husband about this again and try and come up with the best way to go about giving them just enough info.  I could definitely see my kindergartner announcing to his class that his mom and dad don't believe in god and don't understand why people go to church..

On another note, anyone else participating in "A Week" on facebook.  I've been having some fun with it.

[marieangela]

Me again.  I've got a bit of a dilemma.  My family has been invited to a confirmation (or is it communion?) party for one of my second grader's friends.  I know his mom through school and we are on friendly terms.  She is nice.  He is a good kid.  Our boys aren't quite that good of friends any more, as they haven't been in the same class since kindergarten.  We went to his birthday party a few weeks ago and now we're invited to this. 

My main dilemma is that if we decide to go, what do I tell my boys?  I don't even know what confirmation is really.  I'm not sure what or how much to tell my boys.  The mom is a facebook friend.  So, she most likely noticed that I celebrated "A" week not long ago.  If she's looked at my information she would have seen the pages freedom from religion, americans for the separation of church and state, dna fish, etc.  Would it be offensive to tell her that we appreciate the invite, but since we're not a religious family and I don't want to hear too many questions from my 5 year old, we aren't going to be able to make it?  Or just make up an excuse- plans with my mom that I had forgotten about?  Just go and deal with the questions the best I can and hope my five year old doesn't blurt out anything embarassing to a bunch of religious people?  And if so, give the friend a card? Money?  I guess I need to do a little confirmation research...

[KatWrangler]

If the child is in 2nd grade, this would be for First Communion. Confirmation is later, like grade 5 (at least it was when I was growing up in the Catholic Church). Are you invited to the service at church? Or just the celebration after the ceremony? Or both. Why are you afraid of answering your child's questions?

[marieangela]

Thank you.  Communion it is.  I will look into that. 

My two boys are very different.  I can talk to my 8 year old (not just because of his age, but also his personality) and know that he will think about what I say and that he understands when it is and isn't appropriate to talk about things.  My 5 year old is completely different.  Whereas my 8 year old and I are reserved and introverted, he is friends with everyone, talks non-stop and is very sure of himself.  Even if he has false information, he feels the need to tell everyone and proclaim the truth in what he says.  Anything that I tell him will undoubtably be repeated to everyone that he talks to, perhaps as I tell it and perhaps distorted and modified. 

There seem to be a large number of religious people at their public school.  I get along with them just fine, but don't tend to talk religion (or politics) with most of them.  I don't hide that I'm an atheist, but I don't jump into religious discussions either.  I don't want there to be any issues with my kids or with my family because of the beliefs that my husband and I hold. 

Also, there is the issue of my husband and I not seeing eye to eye on what to tell the kids and when.  I know that they will be picking things up at school, if they aren't already, and would like them to have a bit of a foundation of our own beliefs.  My husband wants to wait until they ask questions and then probably be vague or redirect them.. I'm sure part of his reluctance is due to our 5 year old's personality.

And I'm pretty sure we're just invited to the celebration. 

[MissMaegie'sMama]

Originally Posted by KatWrangler 

 Why are you afraid of answering your child's questions?

I'm wondering the same thing as well.

At 5, the explanation you give your son about his friend's First Communion need not be complicated. Why not just tell your son that his friend's family enjoys going to XYZ church, and that the friend's Communion is a special part of his membership in the church. If your DS asks why he doesn't get to have a First Communion, you can tell him it's because you aren't members of that church.

As far as not being sure whether you should attend the celebration, you will have to follow your heart on that one. I personally feel going would be a nice gesture on your part, but you certainly are not obligated to do so. Personally, I feel that choosing to not celebrate a friend's special occasion just because they have spiritual or religious beliefs that are different from mine is somewhat close-minded, and I will attend unless I find out that the ceremony involves something I find morally or ethically objectionable (which has never happened to me). Even if you don't believe in God or enjoy church, you may find the celebration that follows the ceremony to be enjoyable. There will almost certainly be other kids at the celebration, and it might be fun for your son to get together with other kids from school at a party (I have been to First Communion celebrations, and the only God/Jesus talk I head was from the priest during the ceremony itself, not at the celebratory party that followed the ceremony).

If you choose not to go, I would NOT tell her that it's because you don't believe what she believes. Unless she's forcing her beliefs on you and hounding you about your atheism, IMO that would be a pretty rude thing to say to someone you consider a casual friend. A happy medium might be to send the child a card recognizing the occasion, so his mom knows that you care about her child's special day, along with your regrets you can't attend.

HTH. 

[KatWrangler]

Originally Posted by MissMaegie'sMama 

I'm wondering the same thing as well.

At 5, the explanation you give your son about his friend's First Communion need not be complicated. Why not just tell your son that his friend's family enjoys going to XYZ church, and that the friend's Communion is a special part of his membership in the church. If your DS asks why he doesn't get to have a First Communion, you can tell him it's because you aren't members of that church.

As far as not being sure whether you should attend the celebration, you will have to follow your heart on that one. I personally feel going would be a nice gesture on your part, but you certainly are not obligated to do so. Personally, I feel that choosing to not celebrate a friend's special occasion just because they have spiritual or religious beliefs that are different from mine is somewhat close-minded, and I will attend unless I find out that the ceremony involves something I find morally or ethically objectionable (which has never happened to me). Even if you don't believe in God or enjoy church, you may find the celebration that follows the ceremony to be enjoyable. There will almost certainly be other kids at the celebration, and it might be fun for your son to get together with other kids from school at a party (I have been to First Communion celebrations, and the only God/Jesus talk I head was from the priest during the ceremony itself, not at the celebratory party that followed the ceremony).

If you choose not to go, I would NOT tell her that it's because you don't believe what she believes. Unless she's forcing her beliefs on you and hounding you about your atheism, IMO that would be a pretty rude thing to say to someone you consider a casual friend. A happy medium might be to send the child a card recognizing the occasion, so his mom knows that you care about her child's special day, along with your regrets you can't attend.

HTH. 

Exactly what you said. 

[KatWrangler]

Marie,

You mean you haven't discussed religion at all? 

In our house we have discussed religion.  That some people believe and others do not.   We (my husband and I) do not believe.  However, if they would like to explore their feelings on it, I/we will help them.  We have neighbors that are Muslim.  My kids have asked why she (the Mom) covers her hair. 

I am getting a vibe that you are afraid to bring it up with your kids.  Like it would be opening a can of worms.    Tell me if I am wrong.  I can take it. 

[marieangela]

I couldn't help but feel a bit attacked by some of the posts, so had to take a few days to think and regroup (introvert, here).  I have talked to the boys (my daughter is only 2) about religion in vague terms.  Different people practice and believe different things and we chose not to be involved in religion at all.  Lots of your friends may go to church, but we don't.  That sort of thing.  I do plan to go to the communion party and deal with the possible embarassment to others that my middle child will bring.  Indeed, I was overreacting a bit.  Whatever comes of it will come and we will all survive.

It may be quite a while before he respects that it is not always appropriate to discuss certain things at certain times or with certain people.  I know my son quite well and know that general questions and answers lead to many more and much more specific questions and answers.  It is wonderful that he is so curious and I do want to encorage it, but forgive me if I don't quite feel comforable thinking of him talking to his friends at school about whatever he gets out of talks about vaginas, graveyards, religion and such.  I do still need to talk to my husband about his reluctance to have me say anything to the kids about anything that will possible be controversial. 

[MissMaegie'sMama]

I apologize if anything I wrote in my previous post came off as a personal attack. That was not my intent. However, I do feel that you initially framed your concern as having a problem with the fact that you were invited to your friend's son's First Communion because you aren't religious. With your most recent post, I'm understanding that the primary reason you are reluctant to attend the event is because you are really worried that your son will say something others may find offensive or embarassing. Completely understandable.

I suggest letting your friend  know that while you plan you plan to attend the celebration, you may need to leave if your son becomes "overstimulated." I'm sure she will understand. You really don't need to mention that you don't share her religious convictions, because it's kind of immaterial in this case.

If you aren't attending the ceremony itself, but the celebration that follows, then your son might not notice the religious component. It's also a safe bet that if your friend invited you, then she also invited other non-Catholic guests. Probably there will be other attendees who have not attended a First Communion, along with kids who will be full of questions.  IMO, it's also not really fair to your child to refrain from attending fun events because you're worried that he might say something embarassing. Remember, you son isn't the only kid out there without a strong mind-to-mouth filter. And he can't learn to control his compulsion to speak inappropriately if he doesn't have an opportunity to practice. If you hear him say something inappropriate, remind him that a party is not an appropriate place to use that language. I am not above telling my kids that if I hear that kind of language one more time, we're leaving.

All-in-all, it sounds like the real problem is your son's penchant for choosing inappropriate conversational topics in public, not your athesim.You may want to post to one of the parenting boards in this forum to get advice from other moms with children whose "appropriate for conversation" filter maybe have a few big gaps.

Edited by MissMaegie'sMama - 4/18/11 at 5:00pm