Breastfeeding at any cost??? - Page 9

[mollyeilis]

Starr, it feels like you're asking a trick question. For those who don't notice or don't understand your signature, it's like you're begging someone to answer with "have you tried xyz", which I know bothers you (you're now one of the few people whose circumstances I know by heart, LOL). Why are you asking such a thing?

But really, no one is saying here that people, especially here, are horrible parents for using formula. Even saying that formula is not the greatest, that formula companies and their marketing practices are rotten, those things NOT the same as saying those who choose it are automatically horrible parents. Why does one continue to equal the other, in the minds of some?

[mollyeilis]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Oh, for heaven's sake. How many women do you know who are going to come to your house and nurse your baby for you? Round the clock? 24 hours? Or are we to have an army of wetnurses at our beck and call?

For the record, as someone who EP'ed due to physical issues and had to supplement, I hinted more than once that I would accept donor milk for DD from a couple of local nursing friends. No one offered; I didn't really expect them to. It's a lot to ask of someone.

I knew about milk banks, but there was no way I could afford it. I knew some people donated milk, but was not aware of any centralized system; anyway, my baby was in very good health and physically *could* nurse, and I didn't see how I would/should be a priority.

In addition, when you take "nonvetted" donor milk you do run a medical risk.



If you'd read the poster's sig, you'd have noticed that her daughter is adopted.

I'm sorry no one offered to your hints. If I lived where you do, I would have gladly helped you.

I even started pumping for my friend when she was expecting triplets and ASKED in advance for help. Then once the babies arrived, I never heard from her, even when I emailed her mom (my mom's friend), figuring she hadn't gotten my emails b/c, you know, she'd had triplets. I was willing to move to her city if needed (rather than just take frozen milk however often), to uproot DS and myself...but I never heard back.

What was especially sad to me is that my mom and her family- her mom and her aunts- had all swapped kids around for b'feeding, so we were all "related" by b'milk in a way. It would have been so natural to help her like that...

Anyway, I'm sorry there was no one out there for you like that.

But I've always been very impressed by all you did to give your girl b'milk, and if I've ever said that if I needed to I would have pumped for DS, b/c of you it wasn't out of lack of knowledge that it would be hard.

[spughy]

When my supply was low a friend offered to pump for me. She was at the end of her nursing "career" with her DS - he was only nursing a few times a day, but unfortunately just after she started pumping she got quite sick and barely had enough milk for her son, then a few weeks later I was producing enough on my own.

Now, I am producing a small excess due to daily pumping as mastitis prevention (DD rarely cleans out the low-supply boob) and I am giving that excess to a friend who is still having supply problems. It feels good.

That having been said, I think milk donation is still pretty rare. And a pp was right - wetnurses don't really exist anymore and I don't know anyone who would leave their own child and nurse yours through the night. Most low-supply mamas DO have to use formula. And that is what it is for! Like vitamins, KWIM? It's irresponsible to just eat crap all the time and then take a vitamin pill and think your body's getting all it needs. Vitamins can cover little gaps in your diet, they're not meant to fill ALL your nutritional needs.

[Nisupulla]

Originally Posted by nausicaamom

I feel that when it comes down to a choice between adequate nutrition (formula) and adequate parenting (burned-out, un-bonded mom), I'm going to have to go with formula. Yes, the health benefits of breastmilk are huge and can have a life-long impact but I feel that the benefits of having a strong mom-baby attachment far outweigh them.

I started to agree with you. When it comes to nutrition vs mom-baby attachment, I think I'd go with the attachment. But, breastfeeding provides both nutrition and attachment.

I guess this argument that the choice is between breastfed baby/sad mommy and formula baby/happy mommy just really bugs me, so please cut me some slack. I understand that BFing and pumping can be completely overwhelming and exhausting, I also understand that circumstances like bad latch, mastitis, thrush etc and just become too much, so in that case, an overwhelmed mom might opt for formula.

But, lots of women are going to feel overwhelmed in the early days no matter how they feed the baby, oftentimes related to PPD. For those mothers formula is not going to be a cure-all. The sad, overwhelmed, guilty feelings will not go away with the breastfeeding, in fact, they are more likely to get worse. My 0.02.

[Pen]

How many mothers have died because they breastfed?
How many children died because they weren’t breastfed?

Why wouldn’t you try your damndest?
And if you did try your damndest, you won’t feel guilty.

I recognize the problems people have.
I’ve had a few of the hardest myself.
The problem is not breast milk and the solution is not formula
so, don’t offer it as a solution.
The problem is how we are expected to be as mothers, how soon we are to be outta bed after delivery, how well the baby sleeps through the night, how soon after the baby is born that we are out on the town, inadequate foods, what we wear!, how soon we are back at work, the list goes on.

These are the things that impeded breastfeeding and make it difficult for moms to do it.
The solution involves education and knocking the bottle out of the doctor’s hand.
The solution is NOT to say that it’s okay to bottle fed. I don’t even think it should be mentioned.

Don’t speak out of both sides of your mouth. The more excuses we offer each other the harder it will be for people who can breastfeed to realize that they can breastfeed.

This is a matter of life for the child.
And this is the breastfeeding forum. Where people breastfeed.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by Pen

Why wouldn’t you try your damndest?
And if you did try your damndest, you won’t feel guilty.

This deserves to be repeated.

-Angela

[Nisupulla]

Originally Posted by spughy

And I think that is the key differentiator right there: a woman WILL give up on bf'ing if the pain and anguish she is experiencing are worse than how she will feel for the rest of her life if she uses formula. If she can't face herself after she feeds her baby formula (exclusively, I mean - any bm is better than none at all) then she will keep breastfeeding no matter what. This is why I think society needs to demonize formula a LOT more and make using it a shameful thing. (Within reason - it has medical applications that should not be ignored. But it should be treated as a drug, not a food.)

If I'm reading this correctly, I agree with you.

a) Each mom needs to decide for herself that point at which the pain and anguish experienced while struggling to BF overrides the risks of formula and any accompaning disappointment.

b) Formula manufacturers should be ashamed for pushing their product, for falsely advertising it as better than BF for decades, and for using the misleading phrase "breast is best" which is intended to be interpreted as "formula is fine". These mega pharmaceutical giants and their marketing strategies should be demonized.

[Moonprysm]

Originally Posted by Pen

There are valid reasons for formula. Like there are no other mothers around who would nurse your baby. Don’t know where that might be, though.:

I don't know where you live, but where I am, I only know ONE person that breastfeeds. She lives 40 minutes away from me, and sorry if I'm not going to drive 40 minutes every 2 hours so that she can feed my son for me.

He gets what breastmilk I have. And screw anybody who thinks that makes me a horrible mother.

[Pen]

Originally Posted by Moonprysm

I don't know where you live, but where I am, I only know ONE person that breastfeeds. She lives 40 minutes away from me, and sorry if I'm not going to drive 40 minutes every 2 hours so that she can feed my son for me. .

So, you see my point?
More people need to breastfed to be able to help out mothers who are having problems!

[Pen]

No problem as big as this gets solved quickly.

But don't contribute to the problem.
In the meantime, extra effort is needed to turn the tide.

If you support breastfeeding - Support it. If you want to change the system - Change it. If you want to make mothers feel good about themselves no matter what choice they make then, well I'd like to say something here but I won't. I'll just say I won't participate.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by Pen

How many mothers have died because they breastfed?
How many children died because they weren’t breastfed?

You know, I read this and I just think Andrea Yates. I don't know if she was breastfeeding or not, but I do know she had an awful lot of pressure to do the "right" thing and look what happened. Babies died and mama went to prison. And before you blow this off as an extreme case, I am sure there are smaller cases of Andrea Yates's all over the world.

And before there was formula, how many babies died because a mother couldn't breastfeed, no alternatives could be found, and there was nothing else to be done?

Don’t speak out of both sides of your mouth. The more excuses we offer each other the harder it will be for people who can breastfeed to realize that they can breastfeed.

I really truly resent the implication that just because I am willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt that I am a hyprocrite. Are you truly claiming that 100% of women can breastfeed, they're just not trying hard enough?

This is a matter of life for the child.
And this is the breastfeeding forum. Where people breastfeed.

I believe that this is an important advocacy topic and therefore it is appropriate in the breastfeeding forum where not everyone breastfeeds exclusively. You may actually be making points, but your tone and attitude is just so harsh and unyielding that I am having difficulties truly listening to what you have to say.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

You know, I read this and I just think Andrea Yates. I don't know if she was breastfeeding or not, but I do know she had an awful lot of pressure to do the "right" thing and look what happened.

She was not. And I hardly think her case can be blamed on our society... her husband maybe : but that's a different topic.

-Angela

[MotheringHeart]

I believe that it comes down to this:

IF YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING NICE, DON'T SAY IT AT ALL



No mother comes on this board bragging about their FF. No mother comes on this board and says they are proud about not breastfeeding. ALL the posts I've come across with weaning/FF/supplementing questions, the mothers have serious concerns and/or issues with breastfeeding and their child. So it seems to me that responders to those posts should keep their breastfeeding judgmentalness to themselves. These women are struggling and they are doing the best they can, so why write a response telling them they *should be doing more*??? It is not supportive, it isn't kind and it is unfortunate that people can't think before they type. I'm on my third breastfed kiddo and not every minute has been hunky dory. I still never thought of formula or bottle feeding and I HATE the thought of able breasted women using those things. HOWEVER, just because I think those things does not give me the right to judge another momma (outloud) in public, on this board. We all have to make choices and lots of people disagree. What's the point in being judgemental?

All that being said, I believe that breastfeeding is not supported and that WAY WAY too many women do not work hard at a breastfeeding relationship with their child. I have to agree with a PP that motherhood is something that lots of women feel like they *should* do instead of something they *want* to do. So then when baby comes they aren't interested in doing what's best for baby, they are only interested in regaining some semblance of the life they had before. Motherhood requires ENOURMOUS sacrifices. Breastfeeding is not always fun, nice, or easy. But it can be enormously satisfying. But it requires lots of hard work (for some people) and sacrifice. And unfortunately our society doesn't help because it really values the "me, me me" ethic.

And one more note.....My mother is a CNM in a rural area in Southern OR. She has a lot of very poor, highly uneducated clients. She was a LLL leader for MANY years and breastfed me until I was two and my sister until she was 3. Unfortunately, she has clients who take such bad care of themselves and are in such a bad place in life, that she encourages some of them NOT to breastfeed. They abuse drugs or smoke a ton or don't eat or are alcoholics and they neglect their babies. My mom knows the ONLY way those babies are going to survive is to be on formula. Is this right, I don't know.....but I'm not sure that getting rid of formula is the answer. Maybe we should regulate it, but then who's the judge? Is it like c-sections which were supposed to be so that babies/mother's lives could be saved and now they are totally abused? I don't know......but I'm not sure we really want the power of an alternative (but substandard) food source locked up behind regulations.

[spughy]

Pen, I appreciate what you're saying but formula, when used in a medical application - ie, to treat an acute condition (starvation!), when breast milk is not available (which is pretty darn common since we can't enslave poor people to produce milk for us after their babies died anymore) - is necessary to save babies' lives. Don't think for a minute that in the halcyon days before formula was invented that babies didn't starve to death. They did. Their mamas died in childbirth or suffered "milk fever" - what mastitis was called before doctors got ahold of it - and some of those mamas died, too. If a family was poor and the baby was LUCKY it got goat or cow milk. If the family didn't have access to a cow or goat or other milk subsitute and there were no relatives who could nurse the baby, it died. If the mama was malnourished herself and didn't produce enough milk, the baby often died. Say what you will about modern medicine and the medical establishment and formula and NICU interventions and all that (and goddess knows I am NOT defending them wholeheartedly, there is a LOT of unnecessary damage done to babies today) but the infant mortality rate is unarguably substantially lower now than it was 100 years ago. And NO I don't think formula is solely responsible for that but I think it does have its uses in saving babies' lives. It is grossly misused today, but that does not mean that in and of itself it is the evil some people seem to think it is.

[Pen]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

. your tone and attitude is just so harsh and unyielding that I am having difficulties truly listening to what you have to say.

I can see that. So I'll break it down once more.
In today's culture, you cannot support both breastfeeding and formula. If you try formula will win out.

[spughy]

Originally Posted by Pen

I can see that. So I'll break it down once more.
In today's culture, you cannot support both breastfeeding and formula. If you try formula will win out.

You can recognize the medical necessity for formula without "supporting" it.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by Pen

I can see that. So I'll break it down once more.
In today's culture, you cannot support both breastfeeding and formula. If you try formula will win out.

I support mothers and babies. I do not support formula.

[Godiva]

I do feel that the breastfeeding board can be judgemental if you're not 100%bf or even thinking about giving even an ounce of formula. That's actually why I didn't seek help here much at all, I looked other places. My dd didn't regain her birthweight til she was a MONTH old and gained 4 oz total in her second month. I was nursing her 20 or more hours a day. My ped was pro breastfeeding, she breastfed all of her kids, she said "you can't possibly get any more stimulation than you're already getting, you're baby isn't getting the sleep she needs to develop because she's starving and would rather eat than sleep" She didn't tell me to use formula, she gave me the facts. I still tried for 2 months because the pro breastfeeding sites made me feel like a failure if I gave her formula. They all stated I was WRONG for thinking it, that my supply would increase if I just nursed more. I starved my baby for 2 months because I didn't want to be a failure and I either had people who were telling me not to breastfeed at all or that if I didn't breastfeed 100% I was "uneducated, didn't try hard enough, didn't have support" They also said if I gave her one ounce of formula that I would soon give her more and more and I wouldn't breastfeed at all. FInally I read the words of the title of this thread on westonaprice.org. It talked about mothers breastfeeding just for the sake of breastfeeding and I knew immeaditly that's what I was doing and that I was doing a disservice to my babe at best and neglecting her at worst. I didn't want to give her any old crap formula so I made it myself using all organic ingredients and wholesome rich foods and oils. My daughter thrived on it and only needed 4-8oz a day. Not much but enough to make her grow. I NEVER once increased the ammount I gave her and now at 8 months I have completely cut it out except for on the rare occasions when she seems hungier than I have milk for. The lies come from both sides and both sides can do a great disservice to mothers by perpetuating them. Judge less, support more, you may save a baby's life. God only knows what might have happened if I was never linked to that site, thanks to a very supportive MDC mama (who I'm sorry to say I can't remeber and I can't seem to find the thread)

[Party*of*5]

I absolutely think it's worth almost anything. I went through some crap, but not nearly what others have gone through. With my first, he wouldn't latch. I was 20 and scared, but knew what to do mostly. I pumped for almost 2 weeks exclusively, then an IBCLC gave me a nipple shield and we used that for another 2 weeks. Then latch Then my second son chewed me up every feed for weeks while he teethed But I've heard so many lame things "I tried in the hospital but he liked a bottle better" etc...

I also put alot of blame on our screwy society. However, I am a militant believer in personal accountability, which society has also abandoned. It is up to *every* mother to search out info for herself. Reading What to Expect... is cute, but totally insufficient! I understand that there are horrible situations out there, but that's why we have IBCLCs, to help. No woman should be pumping blood, or crying at every feed! I agree we need to demoize formula - and the mothers who choose it. I also agree it's a medication, not a food.

As for making judgements, well I find no problem. When something is deemed wrong, even shameful by most of society, most people will have a hard time choosing to do it. I have no problem creating a culture of pressure *to* BF. But it all starts with the individual. You have to be healthy enough to have kids in the first place. Too many today are not. Even a bird knows to make a nest first, but humans think that's irrelevant. Most of these women who quit so easily are just selfish. It takes alot of time and effort to deal with getting the milk in in an alternative way. That just doesn't fit in between lunch with the girls and pilates class.

[weetzie]

Originally Posted by sjkmaurice

I think what's getting completely misconstrued is the fact that negativity isn't pointed towards women who do fight for breastfeeding and for some reason or other it truly wasn't meant to be but rather mothers who make excuses for their selfish reasons why they don't breastfeed or didn't continue for as long as necessary for their child.

But why is it pointed towards mothers at all? Why isnt it pointed towards systems, towards formula companies, towards doctors offices and hospitals?

Please, stop the anger at other women. Lactivists will not win this war that way. it is impossible.