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Breastfeeding at any cost??? - Page 24

post #461 of 474
What I don't understand about these threads (rampant judgmentalism of other mothers aside), is this...

We have all discussed on this board before, in-depth, and I think most realize, that in order to truly improve breastfeeding rates (which I think is a goal most everyone here wants, safe to say?), the way to go about it is through changing :

1. Formula marketing practices
2. Cultural biases (breasts are sexual, bf'ing is gross, etc.)
3. Education (mainly of lactation consultants, pediatricians, etc.)

Attacking individual mothers and shaming/blaming really doesn't do anything to change things. Surely no one thinks that?

And yet still we have people posting to specifically point out situations where they think mothers should feel ashamed, guilty, negligent, and all variety of negative things.

I don't understand it. If the goal is to normalize breastfeeding and improve rates of breastfeeding... why don't we focus more on getting policies changes... support provided... ?

Why this obsession with attacking other mothers?

I guess my post is more of a plea. It is not up to you (collective you) or any other person to determine whether a mother tried hard enough, or should feel guilty, or is not a good mother. It IS up to ALL of us, in my opinion, if we are lactivitists, to try to enact POSITIVE changes in the system that discourages breastfeeding.
post #462 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
Nevermind, I realize it's not useful to make statements that could lead to fighting about personal/political/social opinions.
That's good!

Quote:
we all have different styles, and we can all reach people.
I agree that there is more than one way to approach breastfeeding advocacy. That does not mean that all ways are valid, however.

Quote:
No one wants to live in a world where everyone is the same (at least I don't think so).
Agreed. But we all deserve respect, and you don't seem to respect other women. You don't trust them to make their own choices. You feel they are responsible for their failure to adequately perservere in breastfeeding (failure as defined by YOU). Please correct me if I have any of this wrong.

Quote:
Different people are reached by different methods.
Agreed, but very few people are reached by methods that rely on shaming.

Quote:
We should all be respectful IRL when dealing with women one on one.
Agreed.

Quote:
That doesn't have to have anything to do with our personal opinions about her choices or circumstances. We can still reach someone even if we don't agree with their choices or stances.
I agree with the latter sentence, but not with the former. I think that it would be very hard for me to effectively reach out to someone if I felt that they should feel shame for their actions.
post #463 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nora'sMama
I agree that there is more than one way to approach breastfeeding advocacy. That does not mean that all ways are valid, however.
If I had said this someone would ask "who are YOU to judge what's valid?"

Quote:
Agreed. But we all deserve respect, and you don't seem to respect other women. You don't trust them to make their own choices. You feel they are responsible for their failure to adequately perservere in breastfeeding (failure as defined by YOU). Please correct me if I have any of this wrong.
I respect all humans in the basic way. You are making a blanket statement about all women. When you say "own choices" that does not mean "right choices". Not everyone who "fails" BFing did something wrong. I do not define BFing failure since it is different in every case. Since I can't know every woman, and I'm not an LC or MD I cannot possibly have enough info to even speculate. As I've said, I can give the most basic advice, beyond that I give phone numbers, books and websites - period!

Quote:
Agreed, but very few people are reached by methods that rely on shaming.
No one can make another person feel shame. Shame is a self initiated emotion caused by the knowledge that one has done something shameful. The desire to not feel shame motivates certain people to make good choices. Certainly there are those who are not motivated by shame, I never suggested otherwise.

Quote:
I agree with the latter sentence, but not with the former. I think that it would be very hard for me to effectively reach out to someone if I felt that they should feel shame for their actions.
I don't know why this is so hard? I've managed to help women whom I personally thought made poor choices. My goal is to educate them so they are able to make better choices. I understand it is not in the interest of obtaining my goal to enlighten them to my personal opinion of their past choices. In the case with one woman I helped, I could not change what happend with her toddler, but telling her what I thought about it would not help me get her soon to be born baby on her breast. By keeping my personal opinions out of it, I was able to educate her and her baby is now BFing
post #464 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down.
Well, you would know.
post #465 of 474
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel
Well, you would know.
Too, too true.
post #466 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
No one can make another person feel shame. Shame is a self initiated emotion caused by the knowledge that one has done something shameful.
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She knew that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.

Quote:
The desire to not feel shame motivates certain people to make good choices.
And unfortunately the desire not to feel shame motivates women every day not to NIP.
post #467 of 474
Thread Starter 
This idea that shame is an internal feeling, seperate from interpersonal interaction, is a convenient way to avoid responsibility for the harm our judgments and loathing can create.
post #468 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama-a-llama
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She knew that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.


And unfortunately the desire not to feel shame motivates women every day not to NIP.
And these are the people that really need to mind their own business. A woman was feeding a baby. Big stinking deal. Who was she harming?

(I am not flaming you. Im just angry about some people always find something to complain about. Why not complain about the guy who pee's behind the bar or behind a bush at a fair b/c he doesn't want to wait in line at the jobjohnny. You can probably tell I am a bit cranky today.)
post #469 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party*of*5
No one can make another person feel shame.
I completely disagree with this statement.
post #470 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama-a-llama
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She knew that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.
Very good example!
post #471 of 474
I think part of the problem is before any of those real societal changes can occur, the U.S. HAS to stop pumping such a huge portion of our GNP into the war machine.

And I know for myself that I feel powerless to make these big changes. Yeah, I vote democrat. In Nebraska, where its completely wasted. And sometimes those feelings of powerless can turn to trying to make a change where you don't feel powerless. Which I think is the case often when we try to tear down other women for not breastfeeding. We feel so powerless to change the big picture and so frustrated that we turn our frustrations to those women who don't breastfeed.
post #472 of 474
Wow, some of you are just plain vindictive, no matter what's said. What is this, jr. high : But it's well known that making personal attacks to avoid responding to the issues is a tactic of the small minded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama-a-llama
I'm not sure this is true. It brings to mind at least one time I've read on these boards that a mama was happily nursing in public, until someone got in her face and told her off, that what she was doing was shameful. She knew that NIP is not a shameful thing, but having someone be rude and nasty about it did make her feel shame.


And unfortunately the desire not to feel shame motivates women every day not to NIP.
Yes that's very sad. But NIP isn't doing anything wrong. Allowing ignorant people to have that affect on one's emotions does nothing to advance social change. I too struggle with feeling embarrassed about NIP, mainly because of my size, but if I don't do it and act totally at ease, then how can I help "the cause"? Doing the action first will usually cause the feelings to follow. It's harder than the other way around, but alot more practical.
post #473 of 474
Closed for admin review.
post #474 of 474
Hi. Can you please send me your goat milk recipe. Thx!!
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