Is some GD philosophy *too* gentle??? - Page 10

[captain crunchy]

Faith, you seem to have a lot of anger.

Anyway, extinguishing my child's interest in the outlets wasn't my goal, but rather, became her CHOICE when she saw they really don't do much and that they weren't forbidden had she wanted to play with them (or continue exploring them).

You on the other hand, take the whole choice out of the mix, what with your refusal to "budge" and all.

See, "budging" isn't in our dynamic around here. No one really budges or doesn't budge. We choose to set PERSONAL boundaries (for our bodies and personal belongings, a light socket isn't a personal boundary in my book)... and we choose to work towards mutually agreeable solutions. Why is that so offensive to you?

Oh, and the *we* you asked about before refers to my husband, myself, and our daughter -- all equal "we's" around here, I wasn't speaking for others who practice a CL approach.

[Nora'sMama]

CC, I'm surprised you'd let your daughter explore an electrical outlet, but obviously that's within your comfort zone. Is there anything she's not free to explore? If she picks up a cigarette butt on the ground, what do you do? I'm asking completely seriously, because this comes up a lot with Nora (who is the same age as your DD). With the cigarette butts I say "that's dirty, here's a leaf/stick/whatever to look at" - I simply redirect and when she is older I can explain to her more in detail why we leave cigarette butts on the ground. I understand her interest but I am not comfortable with her exploring them.

With the sockets (which I must confess completely freak me out) we have all of ours covered and she doesn't care about them but if she sees an uncovered socket at someone else's house she often goes right towards it and attempts to stick her finger in. I say "NO, DANGER." and this is the only thing I have ever had to do that with. I also will remove her from the area around the socket and direct her interest elsewhere.

She now has lost interest in the sockets FTMP (we were around some this morning and she did not attempt to stick her finger in and she does seem to get it now that these are not things to play with) so apparently my danger warning, while I won't say it "worked" 'cause you never know what she'll do tomorrow, has not made her MORE interested in the sockets. Do you let your daughter explore everything? If not, what is she not permitted to explore? How could I have let her explore the sockets in a safe way? The cigarette butts?

Looking for ideas here. I am always looking for a different way to approach things.

[FreeRangeMama]

We allow our kids to use the sockets. I'd rather teach them to do it safely than to just assume they aren't able and have them explore while I'm not around

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by Nora'sMama

With the sockets (which I must confess completely freak me out) we have all of ours covered and she doesn't care about them but if she sees an uncovered socket at someone else's house she often goes right towards it and attempts to stick her finger in. I say "NO, DANGER." and this is the only thing I have ever had to do that with. I also will remove her from the area around the socket and direct her interest elsewhere.

Outlets used to make me very nervous, too, but when my dd was about the same age as Nora, my dh took a screwdriver and stuck it into one of the slots to show me that they're not as dangerous as them seem. You have to complete the circuit, and especially in newer homes (after about 1980, I seem to remember), the circuit breakers would blow before anyone got hurt.

Just an aside to alleviate a little of your nervousness!

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Okay for those who completely reject that you see your children as *selfish* or bratty* or whatever (you don't neccessarily have to use those exact words), how do you feel? I mean, when your child is expressing an opinion or preference that you won't budge on, I imagine you have to approach it with a different mindset than people who practice consensual living -- so what is that mindset?

Even though The4ofUs responded so eloquently to this, I wanted to reply as well.

I have a son who is also 14 months old. He is a very persistent, stubborn child. I admire him for that, and he has a great memory, it seems, for his age. This makes life interesting, but most things I'm able to work around. However, there are times I can't, and at those times, my mindset is this:

He has a need that is unmet. His need is very important to him. However, his need (to be swung in the hamper over and over, to bang his sister on the head with the serving spoon, to stay outside and play his whole life) will pass pretty easily. His health and overall happiness will not be impacted by the fact that his need can't be met at this time. He is too young to be drawn into the decision making process, and I am going to make the decision for him. I have empathy for him, I'm sorry he may have brief negative feelings while I redirect and distract him, but I know that he's capable of weathering this small disappointment, and that in time, he will learn that too.

I don't think his reasons aren't valid, but his experience and reasoning ability is too limited. Therefore, I will help him by making most of the major decisions for him now. As he grows, and his brain develops, I will be less and less in charge, until he is eventually able to care for himself.

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Okay, so you don't see them as bratty, but it leads me to believe some part of you feels their wants or needs in certain situations aren't as valid or important as yours, otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So I guess, in summary, it doesn't have that much to do with my wants and needs being more important. Almost all of my wants and needs involve my children, their future and their happiness, anyway. I don't make him leave the park before he's ready so I can come home and watch soap operas and eat bonbons, but because I can tell he's getting sleepy and I think that getting enough sleep is crucial to healthy brain development. I don't make him stay with my sister so I can work occasionally because I love to remodel old houses, but because I want to be able to give him the opportunity to go to college.

One last thing, I previously said I don't think of my children as selfish, but in retrospect, I have to admit that I do. I don't fault them for that, I think it's developmentally appropriate. I think children have evolved to be selfish so that they can ensure their needs at met until the time when they have matured enough to be altruistic.

[captain crunchy]

I didn't say that other methods didn't "work" but we can all agree I think that just because something seems to "work" doesn't mean it is the way we do things (think spanking and children who *behave). I am not comparing your actions to spanking AT ALL, just simply saying that it wasn't even an issue of what "works". We don't choose to live consensually because we think it "works", that is simply one of the fringe benefits.

As far as the cigarette butt issue, we haven't encountered that yet and I suppose I will cross that bridge when I come to it. I certainly won't encourage it by any means, I suppose I would try to prevent it all together. If I saw cigarette butts on the ground that she may want to grab, I would probably focus on other fun things going on around us. If it were really important to her to pick it up though, like to the point of either pick it up for a second or have a full on power struggle, well that is why I carry purex until we find a bathroom to wash hands. Remember, consensual living is NOT about children just doing everything and anything no hold's barred without our input, information, and personal feelings on the subject. I truly believe my daughter has the best of intentions, wants to do the socially acceptable thing, and truly believe she trusts my judgement. It doesn't mean she will always listen to my input or even want it.

I prefer though, to live in the "what is" instead of the "what if". We could what if all day long, I could answer the cigarette butt question completely to everyone's satisfaction, then it would be "well, what if it were a drug addict's used needle????" or something.

There is always a "what if" to everything, and it will always be my ultimate goal (and hopefully outcome) to find a mutually agreeable solution to those issues that may arise.

[aira]

I wrote out a post (while nak too) about the butts outlets that vanished into another cyber-dimension.

I'll come back when I have time to address it again...

[WuWei]

I've only caught the last two pages of this heated thread. It seems that there is some interest in understanding how CL differs from GD or PD. Anyone is welcome to join the CL list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...guid=140240070 for clarification of specific questions or situations from a consensual manner.

The main issue is if there is dissent, it isn't consensual. Having an "expectation" that a child must adhere to my desire, or be made to comply, regardless of his objection, is not consensual in any way that I can conceive of the word being used. We have had some discussion of the term "collaborative" on the CL site to convey the parent considering the child's desire, but the parent still determining the outcome of the child's actions or exploration based upon *her* judgement. When each individual is acting upon his own judgement, ie. CHOICE, then their action is consensual. When made to act in a pre-defined manner, that is imposing one's will on another.

Does that help to clarify? Of course, the parent can choose his or her own actions, just as the child can. One goal of living consensually is that a positive consent or mutually agreeable solution is determined. Sometimes, our Fears preclude us from being open to the possibilities of our child's desires. I find that when I trust our child by providing my experience and information AND supporting his exploration, he makes sound choices. Sometimes those choices are different than *I*, as a separate individual, would choose for myself. Sometimes, we both learn from his autonomous choice. Never has he made a life threatening choice, nor acted with danger toward another being.

Pat

[Yooper]

I let my dd play with cigarette butts when she was at the age that she found them interesting I also helped her explore outlets and taught her how to use them properly. She did not get electrocuted, learn to smoke, or get any nasty diseases. I admit that the butt issue freaked me out but then dh pointed out that when we were kids, we used to sneak butts off the ground when no one was looking and play with them and even put them in our mouths! We would much rather she feel free to explore them while being supervised so we can wisk in and clean her hands afterwards than not know and have her getting all sorts of ickies while we have no idea. Also, most of the time the butts are so sunbleached from being on the ground that any ickies that were there got cooked. She quickly found them quite boring and only explored them a couple of times. At those times we had a lively discussion about germs, how gross smoking is, how littering is irresponsible, etc......

But, I almost wish I had not answered because someone is going to swoop in with a "yeah, but what about......?". We take it one thing at a time, one day at a time, one activity at a time...... And you know what? It really is not that hard. It is not a constant struggle. It is not hours of discussion every day. I have never had to pee and not been able to. Because we always consider dd's opinions and do what we can to help her get what she wants/needs, she usually trusts us when we make a suggestion. So we do not spend our days catering to her every whim.

[captain crunchy]

The main issue is if there is dissent, it isn't consensual.

I agree with you on almost every point Pat, but I wonder if you can clarify this for me (and everyone else). Do you mean any dissent at all? I ask because I think that is where mutually agreeable solutions come in (imo), when someone is not agreeing with whatever. If everyone agreed all the time on everything there would be no need to find mutually agreeable solutions. In other words, the dissent, by either party (me or my child's, or husband's or whoever) leads to finding a mutually agreeable solution. That is the way I understand it at least. Meaning, suppose my daughter poops (we don't practice ec). She doesn't like the feel of the poopy diaper, I want to meet her need to get out of it, but there is immediate dissent on her part to be changed. Now, I would never make her change her diaper, but when I leave it be (at the first sign of dissent), there is upsetment on her part to get out of it. That is where the mutually agreeable solution begins. Does she want to continue playing? Does she just want me to get the diaper off, wipe really quick and let her go naked? Does she want a bath (sometimes this is the case)? ...and so on (which are all fine with me). So there is no force or coercion and the ultimate *result* is something we both want (she doesn't want to sit in poopy diaper, I want to meet that need and prevent diaper rash) ... but in the whole thing, there is the first protest of not wanting it off, then coming to me when I let it be and fussing because she is poopy... know what I mean?

[Nora'sMama]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I truly believe my daughter has the best of intentions, wants to do the socially acceptable thing, and truly believe she trusts my judgement. It doesn't mean she will always listen to my input or even want it.

At 14 months you think she wants to do the socially acceptable thing? My DD doesn't even know what that is!

I appreciate the explanations re the sockets (good to know they're not as dangerous as I thought!) and the cigarette butts.

I think the "what ifs" are really the only way to establish the parameters of an idea, so I'm sorry if they are tiring, but how else are we supposed to discuss the issues?

gotta go!

[slightly crunchy]

Originally Posted by IncaMama

just a guess, but mightn't she have been referring to herself and her husband? the parents of her child? the child that she is only raising "in theory" since she's only 14mos old at this point? like i said to faithnj, there are many people with children older than CC's (like myself) who parent the same way. since i notice you have no signature, might i ask how old your children are that make your views on this infinitely more valid?

Yes, that was clarified, thanks. I just didn't understand. I detect a lot of snark here, and I can only think that you must have read my post in a way that I did not intend, to respond so. Tone is difficult over the internet. My kids are 4 and 1. I never said my viewpoints were more valid because of that. I do think mamas who have already been through particular stages and are committed to gentle parenting can sometimes be more helpful in offering support or advice for a particular issue (I don't feel I have much insight and would probably not respond to a thread asking about particular issues that a 7 yo is going through, for example).

so what's your beef? that she chose a different term for her philosophy than you did? i don't get it.

No, I do think that captaincrunchy and I differ in philosophy, as she last defined it. What I quoted of her that I agreed with was that I do consider my childs needs and wants as a person, as valid as my own. However, she believes in complete noncoercion of her child. I see that as the adult, there are times when that is not desirable or even possible, in my own family.

is this meaning to suggest that those of us who say we follow a consensual living philosophy don't have contingency plans for issues of safety, other persons, personal property, and physical needs? that these issues don't matter to us?

I don't know? : I think for me, the core issue is that I am having difficulty understanding exactly what CL is. I really do want to understand. I don't understand how one could always avoid coercion to the point that when it comes down to it, the child's needs will ultimately trump the parent's (as captaincrunchy described it), and still ensure these concerns are addressed.

As I said, in every example cited so far, there is nothing specific to CL that I can detect, that would be different from what many mamas here at MDC would do. BTDT with the outlets and cigarette butts, too. And I don't intend to set up a straw man and say "what about xyz scenario, what then?" because I don't find it productive. But the particular instances I am imagining, where noncoercion is not an option for me, are more extreme issues of safety for an older child who cannot be redirected or thwarted by simple babyproofing. Or, in particular, where the needs and wants of a tired mama (who constantly has to pee! LOL), a baby, and a preschooler conflict.

IMo that is the issue with this whole thread--that some of us are not understanding where the other is coming from.

[aira]

Originally Posted by Yooper

I let my dd play with cigarette butts when she was at the age that she found them interesting I also helped her explore outlets and taught her how to use them properly. She did not get electrocuted, learn to smoke, or get any nasty diseases. I admit that the butt issue freaked me out but then dh pointed out that when we were kids, we used to sneak butts off the ground when no one was looking and play with them and even put them in our mouths! We would much rather she feel free to explore them while being supervised so we can wisk in and clean her hands afterwards than not know and have her getting all sorts of ickies while we have no idea. Also, most of the time the butts are so sunbleached from being on the ground that any ickies that were there got cooked. She quickly found them quite boring and only explored them a couple of times. At those times we had a lively discussion about germs, how gross smoking is, how littering is irresponsible, etc......

But, I almost wish I had not answered because someone is going to swoop in with a "yeah, but what about......?". We take it one thing at a time, one day at a time, one activity at a time...... And you know what? It really is not that hard. It is not a constant struggle. It is not hours of discussion every day. I have never had to pee and not been able to. Because we always consider dd's opinions and do what we can to help her get what she wants/needs, she usually trusts us when we make a suggestion. So we do not spend our days catering to her every whim.

Ahh, thank you, Yooper!

This is almost exactly what I had typed that got lost... with the exception that we didn't pick up the butts, but looked at them and poked them with sticks, and talked about germs, smoking, littering, and all. It was a great opportunity for discussion. The fascination faded fast.


About the outlets. I sorta had little choice in the matter as DS started around 5-6 months defeating every safety device I could find. (He's extremely mechanically adept.) So it was inevitable that I faced the reality that he felt a tremendous need (starting before 1 year) to use the outlets like adults. (He had a serious vaccuum cleaner obsession going on then... ) He felt very excluded from the group and seemingly untrusted by us if he was told he couldn't participate in plugging the vaccuum cleaner in. So I bit the bullet and we practiced together until it was quite easy for him.

He has always shown fantastic judgement, control, and used the plugs with great care. For that matter, it's a consistent trait of his to use care when he does everything. For example, I have never made him sit in a shopping cart, and he has never caused any raucus or damage ever, though he loves to explore everything on the store shelves. Even the tea service section at Homegoods! : He investigates it all with great care, and I don't have to worry about it.

Perhaps it's the personality, but DS has never accepted anything less that being treated like a competent human who can use tools correctly, and who moves about the world like other humans. He's very sensitive to it and lets me know fast if I ever condescend to him. It's been this way from birth, I swear.

Anyway, Nora'sMama, I hope this explains a little further about tots wanting to do socially acceptable things...

[captain crunchy]

I don't understand how one could always avoid coercion to the point that when it comes down to it, the child's needs will ultimately trump the parent's (as captaincrunchy described it)

Hold the phone lol .. This reads to me that when a mutually solution can't be reached, we always err on the side of the child and *give in* to her. I hope I didn't imply that. I basically meant in my posts that since I am older, more mature, more experienced, and more *wordly*, hopefully more patient than that of a one year old, that at times instead of even looking for a mutually agreeable solution, I am at peace with going with what she wants for time time being --- which actually, is mutually agreeable when you get down to it because I don't feel angry or mean spirited like I just "gave in at my expense" but rather feel at peace with knowing that I am modeling for her compassion and a healthy amount of selflessness.

This doesn't mean this happens all the time, or even a lot. We find solutions which are mutually agreeable to everyone involved almost all the time. In fact I can't really think of something that was not mutually agreeable except when it related to my personal boundaries and right to be safe in my body -- we had a biting phase which is on its way out and one of my personal boundaries is that I have a right to not be bitten to the point of pain. She can bite anything else, or even give me *love nibbles* (think soft, non painful bites) but my personal boundary is that I deserve not to be hurt. We even found a mutually agreeable solution in that case too, because I felt that there was a need not being addressed (the biting usually happened when she wanted my attention immediately, or when she was tired/hungry/angry --

[Nora'sMama]

CC, what was the solution you hit on for the biting thing? When Nora bites me (usually a playful bite when she is done nursing) I tell her I don't like to be bit, that it's an "owie" (I do the sign for pain) on my breast, and then if she does it again I put her down to play or pick her up and go do something else. I try not to make a big deal out of it but, like you, I'm not OK with being bitten (I can't imagine who is! ). What I do seems to work fine (i.e. she does it less and less and has never gotten upset in the least when I do it) so to me that is a mutually agreeable solution.

Regarding the word "work" as in "what works or doesn't"...you said you are not primarily concerned with what works but with finding mutually agreeable solutions. But that is pretty muich what I mean when I say something "works"...I mean I have found a solution to an issue that has arisen.

[GearBear]

I suppose some may tell me that because this is my first post ever on MDC, I am prying. For that I am sorry. I have been lurking (reading and learning and applying what I've learned) on MDC for years now, but I never did feel comfortable posting. I have been slightly mainstreem (gently though), but mostly AP with GD. CL does interest me a lot and this thread has perked my curiosity and I have lots of questions.

What scares me about CL is the the problems I may face in future with my children if I decide to parent that way. I have many questions about how sucessful CL is for preteens and teenagers. I understand what CL is. But, may I ask you CL'ers how you would deal (uh? cant think of a good word) with the following situations? I am not trying to debate or say your way is wrong, I am just trying to educate myself so I can make the best decisions for myself and my son. These questions keep popping up in my head, and I'm curious how a CL parent would handle it.

What if you have a 15 year old and they wanted to hang out with kids at school that are known drug addicts? What if you could see the path they were heading towards, and it seemed very dark and dangerous? What if they disagreed with you and insisted on maintaing the friendship and hanging out unsupervised? If what I understand about CL is true, then it would NOT be consensual to stop your child from that path. Or am I wrong?

What if your 16 yr old decided to marry? What if you knew she/he was not at all ready for marriage, and perhaps had picked someone that was not healthy for her (ex: abusive, alcoholic, ect). Would you try to stop her/him? In most states he/she would need a parent signature...

What if your child at 14 started smoking and refused to listen to reason? What does a CL parent do then?

PLEASE don't think I'm trying to start a big debate. I admire all the mothers on MDC. I am just wanting to learn more about the differenting parenting styles. Thanks in advance.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Pat

The main issue is if there is dissent, it isn't consensual.

Captain Crunchy,

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I meant dissent about the decision that is implemented, not the initial dissent that leads to creating a mutually agreeable solution.

Pat

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

I do not think of consensual living as being permissive. When I think of a permissive parent a few things come to mind. A parent who doesn't involve theirselves in what their children do, doesn't guide them through life. A parent who doesn't explain to their children when their behavior is negatively affecting them or someone else. A parent who is not comfortable expressing their own boundaries and often feels walked all over because of it. A parent who alternates between being a doormat and a very resentful, angry person. Any and all of these things come to mind when I think of permissiveness.

Consensual living on the other hand brings to mind a parent who is comfortable expressing their boundaries, limits, feelings, wants, and needs and exploring other individuals' too. A parent who will guide their children through social and community involvment. A parent who will tell their children when their behavior is negatively affecting themselves, someone else, or property. A parent who guides and explores with their children this world, its peoples, animals, plants, etc. discussing interdependence as well as independence. And a parent who is as willing to look at theirselves and their behavior and how it affects others and learn. A parent who is comfortable telling their children when they don't feel respected and comfortable hearing their children express when they don't feel respected too. A parent who trusts and expects their children to care about their feelings, wants, and needs. I know there is quite a bit more that comes to mind for me, but I'll leave it for now.

I just don't get the comparison of consensual and permissive. They wouldn't go hand in hand.

Pat

[aira]

GearBear...

I'll dig up a couple of old threads that may address what you are thinking about. I'm on borrowed time right now...

It may be tomorrow AM...

[captain crunchy]

Originally Posted by scubamama

Captain Crunchy,

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I meant dissent about the decision that is implemented, not the initial dissent that leads to creating a mutually agreeable solution.

Pat

No problem Pat, I wasn't at all trying to be difficult That sentence threw me for a loop for a minute and also I was afraid others may have had the same initial reaction.

I am going to sleep now though...so....very...tired....but I am sure this discussion will continue tomorrow. I wanted to address the other question about teens and living consensually.