Is some GD philosophy *too* gentle??? - Page 3

[thismama]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I do sympathize with you thismama, I don't pretend to understand completely the circumstances of raising your daughter, her individual personality, her age etc... and I hope you don't think I was speaking of you directly in my post. I have read some of your posts and you strive to be gentle with your daughter and you have sought help here -- I can respect that. I don't expect everyone to do as we do, I just was asking that people actually know what it is and accept the definition of consensual living from people who live it instead of writing it off as "wow, you didn't take a crap for 5 days because your kid didn't want you to" (of course that has never happened LOL), which conveniently makes it easy to dismiss as a whole.

Oops, x-post. yeah, I did think you were talking to me.

It was really good to see your philosophy written out so clearly. Half the time I have no idea what I'm even aiming for, other than a feeling, yk? I've seen mainstream punitive discipline and I dont' want to do that, and then I've read about and seen forms of interaction that I consider to be too much about martyring one's own agenda for the child, and I don't want to do that either.

Consensual living as you describe it fits what I have been feeling as an ideal, and it embodies a lot of common sense.

It's just not always that easy for me to put it into practice, at least since the little bugger hit 2. Getting easier again now, that thread here awhile back was a big turning point for me.

[captain crunchy]

Yes, I hear ya. Everything ebbs and flows. Believe me, I can't say we practice consensual living in every.single.interaction.we.will.ever.have.with.ou r.daughter.forever. but it is something we strive to do -- it is how we approach every situation. It isn't like, oh crap, I raised my voice once, consensual living is out the window, forget it, I suck. It is more like, okay, no one is perfect, we all make mistakes, when you learn better you do better type mindset.

It is hard not to fall into mama martyr syndrome, I think even if you don't practice consensual living it is an easy trap to fall into. It has helped me (like I wrote in my first post) to accept and to own that when I do put my daughter's wants before my own (which is not all the time) it is a choice I choose to make for the time being and that there will be a time where my wants will come before hers. I *hope* that by modeling this, she will learn to do the same... will she learn it by 2? or even by 5? Who knows, I doubt it... and even when she does learn it, like me or anyone else, she will not be perfect either.

I think any time anyone is trying to build a stronger relationship with their children, striving to understand them more, learn more about themselves, seek information and support with the intent of building a stronger, more respectful relationship with their child, they are moving in the right direction. You seem to be coming along fine. Be gentle with yourself, be gentle with your daughter. It will unfold as it should.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

It has helped me (like I wrote in my first post) to accept and to own that when I do put my daughter's wants before my own (which is not all the time) it is a choice I choose to make for the time being and that there will be a time where my wants will come before hers. I *hope* that by modeling this, she will learn to do the same... will she learn it by 2? or even by 5? Who knows, I doubt it... and even when she does learn it, like me or anyone else, she will not be perfect either.

Yes.

I really feel like getting out of the "I must martyr or I suck" trap I was in (feeling guilty for ever putting my needs ahead of my daughter's, which gets a LOT of cultural support btw), it freed me up to genuinely choose to put her needs first some/a lot of the time.

And I find that now that I have chilled out a bit on the power struggle, things are a lot more consensual. Like, if I say no and then she freaks out, I used to feel like I couldn't "give in." But sometimes I genuinely change my mind, when I see how important something is to her. When that happens, now I say, "well, sure then." Which I used to think would teach her that she can control me. But what I've noticed is that she gets that I actually changed my mind. And already, even at this age, she is able to let some things go and follow my agenda more readily than she used to be. Now that could be a developmental thing too, but I feel like it came about rather quickly when I stopped struggling with her so much.

It's good. But to do it, I feel like I need to be free of the guilt for sometimes putting my needs/desires first, yk? Otherwise I feel like I won't EVER get mine, or won't get mine when it's important to me, and so I resent when I give up mine for hers, if that makes sense.

[captain crunchy]

Yeah guilt is not a healthy emotion I think we can all agree about that. I think remorse when we have genuinely F-ed up can be healthy but living in guilt is not something that I feel is productive. I mean, people feel consensual living sometimes means we just let our children do whatever they want at the expense of everyone and everything around them. That was my complaint I guess.

Truthfully, I have learned to accept temporary resentment towards my daughter. I know that sounds weird, but I think it is a normal emotion to experience when I am feeling frustrated, or can't do something I want, or when my work is getting undone etc... Of course it is fleeting, which makes it okay for me to feel. I don't feel guilty or badly for a moment of thinking, "I really resent that she can't play alone for 5 minutes while I am doing ____" because like most people, I wanna do what I wanna do. I don't feel like a bad mama for feeling that occasionally ---- now if I felt that on a regular basis, even after the immediate situation, like if hours later I was resenting her, that would be a cue to modify something or examine something.

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

I have a four yr old son and 6 yr old daughter. They definitely have a 'sense of empathy' and have for a long time. (

Hmm. Well, I guess I must be doing something wrong. My daughter is not like this, ESPECIALLY at times when there is a problem-- which is when I feel I need her to tap into that sense of empathy. For example, when I am hungry and tell her I need to eat, she will say "Play with me" repeatedly. Of course, I always invite her to eat with me or stay beside me while I eat. However, it takes me several attempts to get through that I need to meet my needs. Ultimately, I DO eat and she usually stops asking (not always), but it doesn't seem like it's because she cares that I am hungry . . .it is because she knows I am going to follow through with what I said I will do (eat).

(And FTR, we play a LOT together; most of the day and part of the evening.)

I am not saying that she is never empathetic, but like I said, not at "key times" (when it seems needed for the problem-solving) . . . she is focused only on what she wants and needs . . .so if I expect differently, I end up frustrated.

So if you're waiting for someone like this to come along and have all the answers for you, STOP.

I don't know, but your tone is coming across as harsh to me. Shouldn't we practice being gentle with each other on a GD board? :

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by thismama

But sometimes I genuinely change my mind, when I see how important something is to her. When that happens, now I say, "well, sure then." Which I used to think would teach her that she can control me. But what I've noticed is that she gets that I actually changed my mind.

Yes, this happens here, too. DH is afraid of what you said . . .that we will seem inconsistent and permissive. However, I think that when I explain WHY I've changed my mind, it isn't permissive at all. It makes her realize that I am open-minded and care what she has to say. In some ways, it teaches her more when I change my mind vs. just saying yes most of the time (even if "no" was a mistake initially).

[amaliaday]

"So if you're waiting for someone like this to come along and have all the answers for you, STOP."

Hmmm I read this as a very kind statement. Nobody is a perfect expert.

[FreeRangeMama]

I totally think that consensual parenting is the easy way to do things. Takes extra time, sure. More creative approaches, definitely. But a whole lot better than power struggles and battles all the time. Dh and I do fall back on less than ideal methods sometimes (especially when we are stressed out and exhausted) and it always leads to problems. Why? Because nobody is at their best when they don't feel respected and secure.

I have 3 kids (5, nearly 3, and 15 months). I really find it gets easier as they get older. You can rely on humor in the tricky moments, they can understand more, they can wait a little longer for things when necessary, and they can begin to see things from other perspectives.

I also find that because our kids KNOW that we will always work to find a good solution for the whole family they accept things they don't want to do a little easier. They really seem to get that we are working together to get everybody's needs met. Often one of my boys will come up with the solution to an especially difficult situation. I love that they have the skills to live this way as it will serve them SO MUCH BETTER in life to know they have the power to solve a problem rather than follow someone else blindly.

Surely some days are better than others. We make mistakes. But overall we strive for a home where everyone feels they are respected and their needs are met (mama and daddy too).

[irinam]

Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy

A for-instance we all can probably relate to: You can't spank a newborn, you can't spank a 15 year old, why spank in-between?

Same can be said for time out, yelling, etc etc?

Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy

I believe the same for EC (maybe I wouldn't if it was harder with Jet ), "You must poop in your diaper... oh wait now you are 3, new rules!"

My favorite of the day! This always puzzled me too (I am a long time ECer )

Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy

The key is communication in any relationship, especially a parenting one.

Come to think of it... would you marry me? : : :

(Just Joking! Don't want your wife coming after me )

[aira]

Originally Posted by CC

Believe me, I can't say we practice consensual living in every.single.interaction.we.will.ever.have.with.ou r.daughter.forever. but it is something we strive to do -- it is how we approach every situation. It isn't like, oh crap, I raised my voice once, consensual living is out the window, forget it, I suck. It is more like, okay, no one is perfect, we all make mistakes, when you learn better you do better type mindset.

I wanted to second this.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that part of consensual living is actively handling the f-ups with honor.

I certainly screw up. A lot. : Part of my deal as a parent is giving DS and DH the respect of owning up to it in a loving way. It's a positive side effect that it models apologizing to DS. To me, the focus of my apologies is to give DS an opportunity to heal from feeling wronged.

For me, mistakes are not outside of the scope of consensual living - like this moment I'm "loving" and so "good", and that moment I'm "bitchy" and so "bad" - but rather the whole spectrum of interactions is a focus on respect, trust, and connection.

[Yooper]

Always late to these things

I remember the thread the OP is refering to with the needing to pee at the beach situation and I was one of the posters that suggested (among other things) waiting 10 minutes to see if dd wanted to leave then. But I also want to point out that it is just a suggestion for people that have stretchy bladders. I cannot pretend to know what is going to be consensual for others. There were all sorts of ideas thrown out in that thread. Some were a little out there. But you never know what idea will be helpful to someone until yuou toss it into the ring, you know?

Anyway, we are being challenged right now. My dd is almost 3 and seems to have hit a phase that is particularly difficult for dh and I. I am reading UP again to try and help center myself a little. We have found oursleves unconsiously slipping into discipline methods we try very hard to avoid. Coming back home to remembering concensual living in every single little interaction really helps. For a long period of time, it was coming easy. Did not have to think about it. But we are back to a moment when it takes work and it is hard. I have to remind myself why I am doing this. But I have faith that this will come back around. At the end of each day, dh and I look back at what happened and what days are better than others. There is no question that the days we slip up and hit the more coersive strategies are by far the worst days. It seems like so much work in the thick of things to try harder to reach for respectful parenting, but looking back it makes the day go much easier. Yes, I might have to struggle to find a respectful solution when I have to pee and dd does not want to leave. And it does seem easier to use a consequence or impose my power in the moment. I do get instant compliance but only at the expense of a more difficult day and temperment thereafter.

[MissRubyandKen]

I don't know, but your tone is coming across as harsh to me. Shouldn't we practice being gentle with each other on a GD board?

ITA. It wasn't said gently. I'm sorry. I was in quite a mood yesterday, crying several times, maybe it was hormones, maybe it was the particular I don't understand this world funk I can get in occaisionally. I wasn't feeling 'right', so I wasn't coming across 'right'. ITA that we should be gentle with each other, we deserve it just as our kids do. This was in response to this comment-

I am certain there are mamas out there with 6 kids under the age of 10 who can say they live in perfect harmony all the time and never use coercion, fear, or anything else negative. They are my HEROES (and wherever you are, come out, because I'd love advice from you). Maybe I'm cynical, but I believe this would be rare . . .

What I meant to say was that nobody's perfect and I hope you don't really intend to limit yourself to taking advice from someone who seems to be or claims to be if they do come along. We can all learn from each other even if we differ.

Hmm. Well, I guess I must be doing something wrong. My daughter is not like this, ESPECIALLY at times when there is a problem-- which is when I feel I need her to tap into that sense of empathy. For example, when I am hungry and tell her I need to eat, she will say "Play with me" repeatedly. Of course, I always invite her to eat with me or stay beside me while I eat. However, it takes me several attempts to get through that I need to meet my needs. Ultimately, I DO eat and she usually stops asking (not always), but it doesn't seem like it's because she cares that I am hungry . . .it is because she knows I am going to follow through with what I said I will do (eat).

I doubt you are 'doing something wrong'. I said sometimes my children(and myself even) do things that seem self-centered. It just doesn't change that they do have empathy and that they do act like loving, caring, wonderful beings and that is how I see them.

[faithnj]

Great post, as always, Captain Crunchy. Despite the fact that I don't use the C.L. lable to describe how I raise DD, it's still describes most of what I do with my own child. And that's the weird thing about this board-- I practice a lot of the same practices. Perhaps most of us practice many of the same practices irl. But our thinking about why we do it, or some of the other things we take into consideration as side points (but important points, nevertheless), make it sound as if we aren't mostly raising our kids the same way. Oh well. What can you do?

But I never realized your DD is 14 months. I dunno. I think anyone can live consensually with children at certain ages. Life with my DD at 14 months was smooth as butter. Now, at 19 months, it looks like my DD is fully entrenched in the "Two" stage early. She's really testing her boundries, walking long distances away from me and saying "no" with a smirk or a smile on her face, clearly waiting to see if I will do anything. And if I walk towards her, she'll run away to see if I'll chase her. She waits to see if I'll make any of my "no's" stick. I haven't taken the bait yet, as I'm trying to decide what it is she really needs out of these interactions. Is she needing to feel autonomy? Sometimes it seems yes, so I give her plenty. But lately it seems no-- it seems she just wants to test boundries. And from my own experience, children can feel a sense of relief or safety when they know their parents will take over. C.C.-- what are you planning to do if you find you have a DC that wants limits? Indeed thrives on limits? I mean, maybe your dd won't ever decide that's a need of hers. But then again, maybe she will?

Otherwise, empathy? She can rub your back and tell you she loves you on her own. But yesterday I was sitting on the toilet, inviting her to play, sit, be read to...whatever. She didn't care that I needed to use the bathroom. She wanted a "cookie" now! And she wouldn't relent. Sorry. The children going through the 2 stage, who can show empathy when you need it most, are probably few and far apart.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE:

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

........ I don't know, but your tone is coming across as harsh to me. Shouldn't we practice being gentle with each other on a GD board? :

Yeah, right?!?!? LOL! That "STOP" thing just seemed like......eek! LOL If I've ever sounded like that in my writings in the past, I think I'm going to make a point to avoid it in the future.

Faith

[faithnj]

Originally Posted by amaliaday

"So if you're waiting for someone like this to come along and have all the answers for you, STOP."

Hmmm I read this as a very kind statement. Nobody is a perfect expert.

Well, the information was good. But somehow the tone seemed harsh to me also. Guess it's because the direct phasing plus the cap letters make it seem like the person is yelling.

Faith

[faithnj]

****Revised to say, Oh how nice of you Ms. Ruby to apologize. I know your message wasn't directed at me, but somehow I feel better!
Hope you have a better day, today.

Faith

[MissRubyandKen]

Well, the information was good. But somehow the tone seemed harsh to me also. Guess it's because the direct phasing plus the cap letters make it seem like the person is yelling.

Nah, I'm just not much of a yeller. I promise any caps in my typing is meant merely to convey emphasis on the word, not a raised tone.:

Hope you have a better day, today.

I am somewhat, thanks. Being around my kiddos helps relieve the funk tremendously. THEY are my reminder of everything that's understandable in this world.

[captain crunchy]

You know, it seems to be a common discussion regarding that my child is only 14 months old (almost). The pregnant mom will never understand the plight of the mom with the newborn, the mom of the one year old will never understand the plight of the mom with the 2 year old, the mom with the 6 year old will never understand the mom with the teen. I get that, but it doesn't mean I am willing to abandon my strongly held beliefs and outlook on life and how will raise our daughter.

I never claimed to be perfect. I never suggested parenting comes without challenges or frustrations or times when we will be at the end of our rope, that is par for the course.

I just know that self doubt and giving up in the face of adversity is a recipe for self sabotage. I refuse to let thoughts like "oh dear, what will happen when she is three" enter into my internal dialogue. Instead, I choose to say to myself "things will probably be more difficult in certain situations as she grows and matures, but we will get through them in the least coercive way possible." I think we create our own destiny to a large degree.

We will always live consensually as a whole, and strive for it in our daily interactions. As I pointed out above, no one is perfect, but it is something we strive for every day (I mean consensual living, not perfection lol) ...

I don't know what will happen if our daughter suddenly craves all these limits people speak of. I don't know if I buy into that philosophy that children really want to be controlled and told what to do and when to do it and that they need it. I think children thrive on information, knowing what to expect, knowing that their parents are always there for support and guidance if they need or want it, knowing they are loved and are free to make their own choices -- while also having the knowledge that their parents are a soft place to fall. We all have limits. I just don't want my daughter's limits to be imposed by me, if I can avoid it. In nearly every case, I can. That may be more challenging as she grows, but certainly not impossible. Also, I think the fact that we have parented this way from birth and that she is an only (and may always be) helps a lot. I would imagine it would be more difficult (but not impossible) to have parented differently then introduced consensual living, or when adding more family members into the mix -- but I have seen both done successfully.

[Yooper]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

You know, it seems to be a common discussion regarding that my child is only 14 months old (almost). The pregnant mom will never understand the plight of the mom with the newborn, the mom of the one year old will never understand the plight of the mom with the 2 year old, the mom with the 6 year old will never understand the mom with the teen. I get that, but it doesn't mean I am willing to abandon my strongly held beliefs and outlook on life and how will raise our daughter.

I never claimed to be perfect. I never suggested parenting comes without challenges or frustrations or times when we will be at the end of our rope, that is par for the course.

I just know that self doubt and giving up in the face of adversity is a recipe for self sabotage. I refuse to let thoughts like "oh dear, what will happen when she is three" enter into my internal dialogue. Instead, I choose to say to myself "things will probably be more difficult in certain situations as she grows and matures, but we will get through them in the least coercive way possible." I think we create our own destiny to a large degree.

We will always live consensually as a whole, and strive for it in our daily interactions. As I pointed out above, no one is perfect, but it is something we strive for every day (I mean consensual living, not perfection lol) ...

I don't know what will happen if our daughter suddenly craves all these limits people speak of. I don't know if I buy into that philosophy that children really want to be controlled and told what to do and when to do it and that they need it. I think children thrive on information, knowing what to expect, knowing that their parents are always there for support and guidance if they need or want it, knowing they are loved and are free to make their own choices -- while also having the knowledge that their parents are a soft place to fall. We all have limits. I just don't want my daughter's limits to be imposed by me, if I can avoid it. In nearly every case, I can. That may be more challenging as she grows, but certainly not impossible. Also, I think the fact that we have parented this way from birth and that she is an only (and may always be) helps a lot. I would imagine it would be more difficult (but not impossible) to have parented differently then introduced consensual living, or when adding more family members into the mix -- but I have seen both done successfully.

Yep.

I have been here for quite some time and this arguement always comes up. Someone always has to step in and claim that someone elses advice/opinion is somehow lesser because their child is not old enough/not the right gender/does not have the magic number of siblings/whatever. I remember when my dd was one year old and being basically told to go away since I did not know anything about the "terrible twos" or a toddler that can run or whatever. Now someone can claim that I cannot have an opinion because my dd is only 3 and an only child and I have no idea what living with a teen will be like. It never ends. I have hit many childrearing challenges. There will be many more. But I am pretty sure my feelings on basic human dignity and respect will not change. I do not want to manipulate people of any age regardless of how they are related to me. I think that goal (while maybe not 100% possible for everyone since we are in fact human) is a reasonable one to strive for no matter what age my dd is.

[captain crunchy]

True 'dat yooper. Thanks for understanding

ETA: I really don't mind, and actually embrace wise advice from people along the lines of "we try to live consensually though when our child reached *whatever age* it was more difficult becase...." that is useful to me and I learn much. However, I really can't stand the whole "you just wait" vibe, like I will throw my whole belief system out the window because it may be a more difficult balance.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by thismama

I feel like there is a time and place to say, "no." ITA that there are lots of other/often better strategies, and I see lots of good suggestions here for those.

But sometimes it seems like there is this prohibition here on ever exerting authority, ever telling a child "no, that is not okay."

I had a thread here awhile back that was super extra amazingly helpful and made all the difference in me changing a dynamic that had developed with my dd where I was power struggling with her.

But I keep thinking about an example I wrote about where we were at the beach, and it was time to go. We climbed the hill to the car and dd turned around and ran back down the hill to the water, despite me telling her no and urging her to come back. It was suggested that she must not have been ready to leave, and I should just resign myself to waiting, to helping her want to leave, time is not a big deal, sometimes part of parenting is being somewhere and wishing like crazy you were somewhere else, etc. One mama suggested she stays at the park even when she really has to pee, if her children are not ready to go yet.

Another time I was trying to get my daughter dressed, as we had to be somewhere. She refused to get dressed and was physically struggling. I tried to distract, convince, etc. Didn't work. Finally I picked her up, put her in my bedroom, told her I was putting her for a time out because she wasn't getting dressed, and walked away. She started to cry, followed me out of the room, and I got her dressed. But I'm sure many here would be horrified by that.

So my question is... is this constant giving, following children's agendas at the expense of our own, not saying "no," never giving a parent-driven consequence to a behaviour... is that mandatory for GD?

And is that necessarily good for children? What is that teaching them? Is it good for kids to get the message that their own needs and desires always come before their mama's/other people's? Is it good for them to never be told "no," or to give up their own desires because someone else's agenda (like mama's agenda to go pee) takes precedence?

Haven't read the response - but what you are describing is a particular discipline style called "non-coersion". I think Alfie Kohn is an author on that topic. There are other styles of discipline that are considered GD - that do not fall along those lines. I'd suggest Positive Discipline by Jane Nelson.