Is some GD philosophy *too* gentle??? - Page 4

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

I agree with you. I have tried everything I can think of thus far to get DD to stop yelling, name calling, spitting, etc.

Finally, today, I said SCREW THIS. I quoted Super Nanny.

DD was in the middle of a spitting frenzy, and I said, "Spitting is NOT acceptable. If you do it one more time you're going to the office."

She stopped RIGHT AWAY and didn't do it again today. And honestly, she looked relieved that I took charge.

Have you read Positive Discipline by Jane Nelso. Excluding the "Screw it" comment - your consequence would have fallen right in line with that books recommendations. FYI - this book is on the GD book list.

My point here is -- what is considered GD on this board runs a broad spectrum from CL to PD -- and the approaches are very different, but the concern and the intent the same.

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by TripMom

Have you read Positive Discipline by Jane Nelso. Excluding the "Screw it" comment - your consequence would have fallen right in line with that books recommendations. FYI - this book is on the GD book list.

My point here is -- what is considered GD on this board runs a broad spectrum from CL to PD -- and the approaches are very different, but the concern and the intent the same.

No, I haven't-- I will have to check it out!

(FTR, I didn't say "screw this" out loud . . . ).

I have a general understanding of what CL is (and see it is a goal, though not one I am currently attaining). . . is CL not considered to be a form of PD?

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

What I meant to say was that nobody's perfect and I hope you don't really intend to limit yourself to taking advice from someone who seems to be or claims to be if they do come along. We can all learn from each other even if we differ.

Thank you for that.

What I wrote was an exaggeration, of course. I certainly didn't mean to imply I'd ONLY take advice from the type of mama I described (because she's a fantasy) . . .I just mean that sometimes I feel I can worry/complain that things aren't working, and someone will come back and imply that there is ALWAYS a way to work things out and solve them. It's that implied goal of perfection (even though everyone agrees that it isn't actually possible) that wears me out. Sometimes I think there are just rough periods in life and it just sucks, and one has to find a way to get through them vs. believing one has the control to make it fabulous. Does that make sense?

But, I have come along way in believing this. I used to think I COULD solve things or at least prevent pretty much every problem. When I read Dr. Sears when DD was under a yr. I felt he implied discipline would be easy because we'd be attached . . .certain things wouldn't even be issues. When I had a 1 yr old (only) and saw parents doing things I swore I'd never do, I judged them. And then my baby grew up . . .and I realized that I didn't have the answers. When I looked down my nose at formula and then had a 2nd DD that refused to nurse most of the time (at 6 weeks with a lot of work, we finally succeeded), I learned my lesson. Had she not been like that, I STILL would have tended to judge mamas.

In other words, I "try" to always preface things as "This has been my experience, I have not walked in your shoes and never will." I am saying this has been a LONG hard lesson to learn-- to not judge (and I still stuggle with this). When I feel the judging tones come out on this board (from my perception; I don't know that people are truly judging), I get really frustrated and HOPE people don't have to learn their lessons the hard way like I did, but then again, I also wish they'd appreciate that they simply CANNOT know.

Sorry for going all James Joyce and getting my stream of consciousness groove on . . .it's just been a rough few weeks for me!

[georgia]

Miz---I've said a lot worse in my head--don't feel alone

When I feel the judging tones come out on this board (from my perception; I don't know that people are truly judging), I get really frustrated and HOPE people don't have to learn their lessons the hard way like I did, but then again, I also wish they'd appreciate that they simply CANNOT know.

I find it's really easy to give advice when you've got the emotional and physical distance! My biggest challenge is "in the moment"....it's such a challenge

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

No, I haven't-- I will have to check it out!

(FTR, I didn't say "screw this" out loud . . . ).

I have a general understanding of what CL is (and see it is a goal, though not one I am currently attaining). . . is CL not considered to be a form of PD?

This board uses them term "Gentle Discipline" -- and I don't think that is defined by any one approach - but if you go by the suggested reading list in the Sticky -- it captures a range of approaches -- including CL and PD. If you talk to the CL people -- PD is NOT GD. If you talk to the PD people - CL is far too permissive to be D at all. Yet both approaches are on the suggested reading list here. I think the only thing they really have in common -- is that neither approach is mainstream. CL people may object to this next statement (as their definition of what is and is not authoritarian is a lot broader than others) - but IMHO neither approach is authoritarian -- both approaches are "Gentle".

And to answer your original question -- Yes - I think some GD approaches are too "Gentle". IMHO - I find CL -- too "gentle", or probably better described as "too permissive".

[aira]

CC and Yooper, I love you guys!!

[captain crunchy]

Originally Posted by aira

CC and Yooper, I love you guys!!

aw shucks *blush* you ain't so bad yourself honey

[aira]

:

[oliversmum2000]

i am subscribing to this thread as i worry about being overly permissive and some days i think i just come off as being grumpy

i love my children so much and i do struggle with discipline and not having any role models around who dont use shame, punishing, shouting it is all too easy to be influenced by what you see and hear

so thanks for helping to renew my determination to be my childs ally and be on the same team as him, work with him not against him, to do things with no to him

and to remember at all times he ias a wonderful, amazing and good child and work from that basis, that if he isnt acting in a way that reflects how great he is, there must be an underlying reason or problem that i need to help him get to the bottom of

keep reminding myslef i am not rewarding him i am helping him to be the best he can be (plus we dont do rewards do we!)

thanks for helping me remember what i am trying to do

[slightly crunchy]

Originally Posted by thismama

I feel like there is a time and place to say, "no." ITA that there are lots of other/often better strategies, and I see lots of good suggestions here for those.

But sometimes it seems like there is this prohibition here on ever exerting authority, ever telling a child "no, that is not okay."

*****
So my question is... is this constant giving, following children's agendas at the expense of our own, not saying "no," never giving a parent-driven consequence to a behaviour... is that mandatory for GD?

I think what you are seeing is that many of the active posters on this board now lean towards noncoercive parenting.

Gentle Discipline seems to be a spectrum of ideas. Some would say that the far end of the spectrum (TCS for example) is "too gentle" for their family. But some strive for those ideals.

I think it just changes over time. A couple of years ago, when I first started reading at MDC, it seemed to me that the posting was more along the lines of "Positive Discipline" writers, like the Spirited Child book, and others like it, to give examples. I think the board has changed, but that doesn't mean that what Gentle Discipline means, has changed.

Like others have said, the problem I have run into with my own 4 year old, is the lack of reasoning ability, and lack of understanding for other's needs. Especially when there is a younger sibling involved, who has more immediate needs. I have seen an incredible ability to cooperate and understand, and then there are times when he is completely unable to work with me on mutually agreeable solutions. Those are my most difficult moments, and there sure do seem to be a lot of them these days. But then, I just have to forget all the nice theories from Alfie Kohn and anonymous people on the internet (as helpful and inspiring as they have been ) and be the Parent, and take charge.

Still don't agree with traditional timeouts, but surely there are times when a raging child cannot be allowed to hurt other family members, and need to be taken aside until they can control their bodies better.

I also don't agree with arbitary consequences imposed by the parent. But if the family needs to be somewhere, or one of them needs to pee, but a child refuses to leave--well, then insisting on leaving is not an arbitrary consequence, or a punishment. It is just a fact that leaving needs to happen, and the parent has to take the lead. It would be great if this could be worked out without the use of force (because to me that is a last resort type of thing) and that is where all the other GD tools come in (theoretically).

[IncaMama]

just want to say that consensual living has no age limits. consensual living is not a cookie cutter way of parenting. what is acceptable/agreeable for one family is not for another. in my house, we don't really care if our walls get messy with crayon or whatever. we dont' encourage it, but it's not a big hot-button issue for us. in another family it might be different. our 3yo tries my patience every day, and of course i make mistakes and make bad decisions but my frame of mind is always from a consensual living perspective. i think that makes a difference.

i've been accused by others of being too permissive, and i just don't give a hoot anymore what other people say about my parenting. my children are happy, spirited little souls. i have nobody to answer to except for them. my responsibility is to them, not to anybody else. if others don't like it, they can bite my arse.

is consensual living more difficult with an older child? hm...i suppose it depends on how you look at it. i think *life* is more difficult with an older child than with an infant, new toddler. LOL and i think that consensual living helps to IMPROVE that life, moreso than other methods of "discipline", etc.

uhoh, my little dude needs me. be back later.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by slightly crunchy

But if the family needs to be somewhere, or one of them needs to pee, but a child refuses to leave--well, then insisting on leaving is not an arbitrary consequence, or a punishment. It is just a fact that leaving needs to happen, and the parent has to take the lead.

Curious. How would the CL parent handle this?

[aira]

Well, it's important to remember that intent goes a long way. Sometimes similar actions or words can be very different in different contexts and with different intentions...

I pretty much always assume that DS is "on my team" and that we face things together. Using this approach has been largely very effective.

In the case above, I explain to DS that we have a parameter. I know that he wants to stay at the park, but we have a deadline, and could he help me get everything done. "Everything" includes what he wants to accomplish too. If I were to presume that he will melt down and that I have to "set a limit" then it will happen. So I say that we will be at the park until (whatever tangible marker I can use), and after we will accomplish X. Alternately, I ask him what last thing he wants to get in before we go do X. Trusting that the child can handle and understand reasons why we do things is critical. It conveys that I trust his ability to cooperate, and doesn't undermine his problem-solving ability.

Approaching it with an idea that I'm gonna have to "take charge" just breeds resentment and shuts down his expression, self esteem (since it conveys that I don't trust him), and sets us up on opposing sides of the issue.

These subtle differences in intention make a huge difference.

I'll post this and then add an example later...


ETA:

Examples:

1. A while ago (during winter) my mother came over to go out with us. She tends to dig in her heels about things, and refused to leave unless DS wore a hat. He refused.

To me, the thing to accomplish is keeping warm. To my mother the means to keep warm had to be a hat. Who cares? If DS prefers another way to keep warm, it's his body. But mom had really set a limit - hat or no go.

Well, of course DS melted down. And she's my mother and never listens to me. So this situation just escalated and escalated. DS was inconsolable. I finally grabbed him away, told my mother to back down, and went in another room. DS and I talked about how he felt about Mimi forcing that hat on his head. He was livid and insulted and the whole bit. I apologized for her (only because she is incapable of it) and told DS that she is worried about him being too cold and wants to keep him warm. I asked if he liked other warm things, and he suggested the blanket.

I told him it was a great idea, and asked if he was ready to go out and tell Mimi that we found a great solution. He was, and was very proud of it.


2. There are times I reschedule. I don't "give in" or let DS dictate what I do. But I certainly take his feelings into consideration when I plan - and revise plans if they aren't working.

Last night I was determined to go buy clothes hangers. I'm sick of living in bins from moving and I want my closet organized, damnit! So, well, several things snowballed to just frustrate the crap out of DS last night, until he was uncharacteristically grumpy. (Hmm, strange it was also mostly from my mother... I mean, he gets grumpy sometimes, but I could tell this was extraordinary. He was happy in the car going to the store and I thought we were past the upset, but when it was time to go in he refused. He usually likes to go in stores, but not then. As I asked him why he just melted down more and more. So I probed a little, and it came out that he was really angry at feeling tricked by my mother telling him she would walk the dogs with him and then just leaving instead. He was too upset about it to cope with anything.

I didn't get the hangers (and I was right there!!!! ), and instead took him to the park so he could get his frustration out. As soon as we got home, he sought out my mother and explained that he was angry at her about it. If I had pushed through him, he wouldn't have had an opportunity to get in touch with why he was so upset, and certainly not to process it.

As it turns out, he didn't care that she didn't apologize - he was happier as soon as he told her.

Oh, and I got the hangers this morning with a happy DS!! Organizing closet as soon as I can pry myself away from MDC...



Sorry for the novel...

[captain crunchy]

Curious. How would the CL parent handle this?

Again, consensual living doesn't mean that every single interaction with your child every single moment of every single day is going to be perfect. That is a level of perfection that I think is a convenient arguement for people who are not agreeable with consensual living.

If I have to pee, I am peeing. Consensual living means ALL parties consent when at all possible. It means that mutually agreeable solutions are always the goal, but it doesn't mean they are always neccessarily the outcome. If I have to pee, it is not agreeable to me to get a UTI or to piss myself, so in that instance, if my child was really not wanting me to pee, my needs would have to trump her immediate wants for the moment. I don't look at my child though, as someone who is out to foil my attempts at taking care of my bodily functions. I don't approach situations with that dynamic, like she is "out to make my life harder" or something. I see it as she probably doesn't understand the urgency of me having to pee and doesn't truly get that I have to go...now.... I would attempt to make the fact that I have to pee more agreeable by either playful parenting (laughing and doing the pee dance) or by asking for her help (flushing the toilet or getting me the tp or whatever) , but I don't think any parent has said "yes, I would piss myself because my child didn't want me to pee". That is somewhat ridiculous.

In terms of leaving some place, we have never encountered that, though I am sure we will in the future. I am more than willing to stay longer somewhere, and more than willing to work with my child if it is important to her. We don't have a rigid schedule.

I think one of the fundamental differences with people who practice consensual living and people who don't, is that the ones who don't truly feel as though they are benevolent rulers of their children. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I seriously mean most people I have encountered who reject consensual living truly believe that while they love their children, let them have some choices, and are gentle in their discipline, everyone knows "who's boss" so to speak...and it is the parent. If I had to pee and my husband wanted to tell me something, I would say "honey, have to peeeee nowwwwwwww" and he would get it and I would pee. My daughter isn't yet at that level of understanding so it takes a bit more working with her, but that's the point, I work with her -- not against her.

[IncaMama]

ITA, CC

wow. an entire sentence in just acronyms. LOL!

anyway...it's a mindset, it's a framework, it's an attitude. it's not a recipe or a manual.

and i just wanted to add...how can we possibly expect a child who is still in diapers to understand that mommy can't just pee in her pants? the child does, so why not mommy?

[captain crunchy]

Exactly, and furthermore, people who practice CL approach situations in the spirit of their being an actual reason the child doesn't want you to pee. Do they want to play more, do they think you're leaving for good, do they want to come with you, do they want to help, do they think they won't get to play when you come back, do they not understand? People on the authoritative side seem to feel that the child is just being *bratty* or *selfish*. It is a mindset.

[irinam]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I think one of the fundamental differences with people who practice consensual living and people who don't, is that the ones who don't truly feel as though they are benevolent rulers of their children. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I seriously mean most people I have encountered who reject consensual living truly believe that while they love their children, let them have some choices, and are gentle in their discipline, everyone knows "who's boss" so to speak...and it is the parent.

You hit a nail on the head. It's interesting to see different variations, but one can always trace the core of believes to either:

1) I am (the parent) in charge (countless variations ranging from "I'll beat your butt into submission" [not here of course] to "I'll gently guide you and teach you and be all I can be. But when push comes to shove we are going to do it *my* way")

or

2) We are the team (again, variations on temperament, interactions, etc. )

[wednesday]

I think you've gotten a lot of great feedback so far, and I also wanted to say I really appreciated shaggydaddy's posts. I wanted to say I feel like there is a middle ground between martyr and authoritarian in the examples you gave. My son is almost 3 so we have had the kind of struggles you describe over leaving a park or getting dressed. What has worked for us with leaving the park is to have some kind of transition. Sometimes I'll tell him "I'm going to sing the ABCs and then we're going to leave" or "three more slides down the slide and then we'll leave" or something like that. I don't do the same thing every time. This works really well with my son because it gives him time to adjust. I've heard it doesn't work that well with every kid so I think it's just a matter of figuring out what works for your kid. But if you think about it from their point of view, it's hard to deal with the big bossy boss in your life just dictating that you have to stop the fun thing you're doing and fall in line to leave.

As for the getting dressed struggle -- when my son is resisting this (putting shoes on is frequently a hassle) I usually do something silly like try to put his clothes/shoes on myself. "You don't want to wear these shoes? Can I wear them? Oh no, they don't fit! Can teddy wear them? Oh dear, they don't fit teddy either." By then DS is almost always laughing and grabbing his shoes away from me so they can go on his own feet. You would think this strategy wouldn't work over and over but it still does. Have you read the book Playful Parenting? That book is my favorite parenting book ever. It has been an incredible resource for me in how to turn a situation from stressful defiance/frustration into good-natured compliance.

So to sum it up...I don't believe in being a martyr at all...but I very much believe in GD, and that it is worth it to figure out strategies that enlist DS' cooperation, instead of just imposing my authority on him.

[Leilalu]

Originally Posted by Attila the Honey

I think "too gentle" is like "too compassionate". No such thing. :

But, having said that, I never equated "gentle discipline" with never saying "no". I do equate it with being respectful, compassionate, understanding, and non-coercive or manipulating, but not with never saying, "no".

I respect my daughter's feelings and I don't assert my dominance just because, but sometimes the answer is "no". I try to remember that adage, "Make your 'no's as kind as your 'yes'es" (or however that goes), but I still use "no".

But really, that's true for dealing with everyone. I have a kind and 'gentle' relationship with my dh and we respect each other and talk things out, try to work as a team, but sometimes we make each other unhappy. I see it as similar with dd. We ARE a team, and we have to do what's best for the team, and if it's time to leave the park because it's late and we are tired and everyone is hungry then, no, we don't sit and suffer because one member of the team is upset that we have to leave.

I think it's a common misconception that gd = never letting the child be upset in any way. that's not very practical. To me, the difference between a gd parent and a non-gd parent might be, for example, that the gd parent understands and 'allows' their child to cry and scream when it's time to leave, maybe with some hugs and reassurances if that helps; whereas a non-gd parent would be more likely to coerce/manipulate ("Stop crying and I will give you some candy.") or punish ("Stop crying or I will give you something to cry about.").

It's not that gd = letting the kid dictate how long you stay, it's how you deal with the issue of needing to leave.

Hope that made sense.

And honestly, lately with 2 small children it is REALLY hard to leave a place I have had to physically restrain dd by holding her or giving her hugs because she just never wants to leave.What I mean is-for example: kids have been playing at IKEA, playing, for awhile. Dd starts walking off in one direction, ds starts RUNNING FAST repeatedly in another. What am I to do? In my mind, they have hit their attention threshhold in a crowded place and as a respectful parent I need to take them home. But dd doesn't want to go. I feel, because she is overstimulated. So, see I know this about her and I feel it is my job as a loving attentive parent to leave. Also because it is becoming unsafe and they are not following rules I try to implement about"staying together to be safe". So I pick up dd and she kicks, screams, etc. But I know from her temperment that she is partly acting this way because she is overstimulated and currently incapable of calming herself.

So in this instance, I decide it is time to go. Dd does not like it, but she will understand later. I try to be as loving as possible, and explain to her why, but she still doesn't like it.
Now this doesn't happen alot. there are lots of times I will stay longer, I will let them decide. But I think for an almost 4 year old, she is a bit ready to understand that the world doesn't always wait on her.Ok, I am starting to ramble- but I wanted to share. I think being GD oriented is about taking into acount alot of different factors about your specific child, situation, age, etc and then coming up with an appropriate response to behaviors. My kids don't always get their way, but neither do I . I compromise for them as well.

[aira]

Whoa! There were lots of posts between my posting and editing!!


CC, will you marry me?