Is some GD philosophy *too* gentle??? - Page 5

[MissRubyandKen]

Curious. How would the CL parent handle this?

I don't choose to label myself CL, but I do admire alot of what the label stands for and strive towards the goals alot. But I'd like to answer.

Tripmom- you have triplets, right? I have no experience with that, but I'd guess at certain ages, 2 and 3 come to mind, that if all three were refusing at the same time, picking up and leaving, empathizing, validating, and reassuring something they enjoy will come next too might be the least stressful route. I don't know?
Several things helps leaving to be consensual here. One is if I know ahead of time there is a reason I will want to leave in a certain amount of time I can tell them that. 'Hey guys we haven't eaten dinner yet. Everyone wants to go to the schoolyard, so lets go for an hour and then come home so I can make dinner.' or 'Its gonna be dark in an hour and the park closes when it is dark, so we can stay for an hour and then go home.' And then just reminding them when it is time to go why we are leaving.
Another is going towards something else thay want, probably not as much as the park, but they have accepted that. Sometimes with ds it is as simple as offering a piggyback to the car. Or reminding him he wanted juice at the store and we've yet to make that trip. Or reminding them we need to go eat so we don't start feeling icky and grumpy.
And with the having to pee thing, I do expect my children to understand that, and many times they have. Recently we were at the pool (walking distance from our house) and I had to go to the bathroom. Dp and dd stayed and ds wanted to walk home with me. He wanted to carry the keys, so he did (we had done this the day before SMOOTHLY ). When we got to the door he wanted to unlock the door. He asked which key it was and I showed him. He started to go back through all the keys and ask is it this one, this one. So I showed him again which one and reminded him how bad I had to go pee. Well he wanted to play with the keys. Keys are fun. I took the keys from him and unlocked the door. He was quite upset. I apologized for taking the keys and explained to him that I had to go so bad it hurt and I didn't want to wait any longer. I think it is rude to take something from someone's hands like this, so I apologized. He accepted my apology and asked if I felt better. Afterwards I thought I could have assured him he could play with the keys for as long as he wanted after I went and it may have been enough for him to let go of what he wanted to do at that moment and see what I needed to do at that moment! It's not as if I think an occaisional instance of putting my needs before his is going to have some long lasting devestating effect on my son or our relationship. It's not as if I was beating myself up for taking the keys and being less than consensual. What it is like is I realized afterwards one small sentence may have made the difference for it to be consensual. My recognizing his want may have helped him recognize my need. All that aside it was said and done and I think recognizing his feelings of upset and being understanding did help him understand were I was coming from.

[captain crunchy]

Originally Posted by aira

Whoa! There were lots of posts between my posting and editing!!


CC, will you marry me?

Sure, but I am already married so we will have to move to like, Utah or something.

[aira]

Me too.

Does Utah have gay polygamy? The next hot-button issue, I can tell...

[mamachandi]

Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy

I guess my point is that gentle discipline works for ANY age person the practicality is a big draw. No matter if they are too small to be called a "person" by the "mainstream" yet. Why change your parenting philosophy with each new benchmark? You GD your spouse, your waiter, your boss, your employees, your neighbor, etc etc. Try using positive phraising to negotiate with an adult some time... it works GREAT.

A for-instance we all can probably relate to: You can't spank a newborn, you can't spank a 15 year old, why spank in-between?

Same can be said for time out, yelling, etc etc?

I believe the same for EC (maybe I wouldn't if it was harder with Jet ), "You must poop in your diaper... oh wait now you are 3, new rules!"

Every time you have to re-establish a relationship with someone it is very difficult.

I am luckey enough to have had the wonderful opportunity to have kids of all ages and dispositions live with us for months, weeks, days, and just hours. The one constant is that they know that they will be given respect and they will be allowed/encouraged to have a lot of fun within the rules. They love how lax the rules are, and they love that they have input into the rules. They trust us to never do anything arbitrary.

I see no problem with teaching children that if they ask, compromise, bargain, work, and trade the right way they will get pretty much anything they want. It is true in my life and it has been for a long time (since I left my parent's authority).

People (adult or child) will almost always choose the path of least resistance, the easiest way to get their way. Sometimes the easiest way to get our way is to compromise in our desires, sometimes it is to trade, most of the time (especially for a child) it is to ask the right way.

You haven't cryed till you have seen a 12 month old ask if he could please use the computer next if he waits patiently (with no prompting).

The key is communication in any relationship, especially a parenting one.

I would love to know what books your reading/have read on gd. I have a 12 year old and am dealing with issues that didn't come up when she was younger...and am having trouble dealing with it...suggestions?? thanks! love your posts!

[TripMom]

Thanks for the reponse to my previous post. Here is what I concluded - at least the people that responded (whether they consider themselves CL or not) -- handle the situation I inquired about (mom has to use the bathroom and kid doesn't want to go) -- the same way I would have. And I would consider myself a postive discipline parent.

In fact - all the examples posed by these PPs having to do with "transitions" - i.e. leaving the park, leaving the house, etc -- all your suggestions on how to handle them are the same way I would have handled them as a PD mom. Exaclty.

Here is the circumstance I've seen posed here many times before - that for me defines the KEY DIFFERENCE between CL and PD -- "If DS does not want leave the park - we don't leave - period - until he wants too" or "If DD does not want to get in his carseat - we don't go until DD wants too". That sort of idea that after you've used the techniques you all discussed above - playful parenting, distraction, etc. (which by the way CL does not have a corner on the market for) -- is DC still says no - we do what DC wants and DC is not forced to leave the park, or get in the carseat, etc. In other words its what DC wants that trumps - always and regardless. I'll note that none of the PPs suggested that in the face of unrelenting resistence despite all parental efforts - DC still won't do X - we go along with DC - so maybe you all don't take it to that exteme - but I have definitely seen that extreme discussed and advocated here.

Otherwise - what you are all saying to me -- sounds a lot like PD?

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

I don't choose to label myself CL, but I do admire alot of what the label stands for and strive towards the goals alot. But I'd like to answer.

Tripmom- you have triplets, right? I have no experience with that, but I'd guess at certain ages, 2 and 3 come to mind, that if all three were refusing at the same time, picking up and leaving, empathizing, validating, and reassuring something they enjoy will come next too might be the least stressful route. I don't know?
Several things helps leaving to be consensual here. One is if I know ahead of time there is a reason I will want to leave in a certain amount of time I can tell them that. 'Hey guys we haven't eaten dinner yet. Everyone wants to go to the schoolyard, so lets go for an hour and then come home so I can make dinner.' or 'Its gonna be dark in an hour and the park closes when it is dark, so we can stay for an hour and then go home.' And then just reminding them when it is time to go why we are leaving.
Another is going towards something else thay want, probably not as much as the park, but they have accepted that. Sometimes with ds it is as simple as offering a piggyback to the car. Or reminding him he wanted juice at the store and we've yet to make that trip. Or reminding them we need to go eat so we don't start feeling icky and grumpy.
And with the having to pee thing, I do expect my children to understand that, and many times they have. Recently we were at the pool (walking distance from our house) and I had to go to the bathroom. Dp and dd stayed and ds wanted to walk home with me. He wanted to carry the keys, so he did (we had done this the day before SMOOTHLY ). When we got to the door he wanted to unlock the door. He asked which key it was and I showed him. He started to go back through all the keys and ask is it this one, this one. So I showed him again which one and reminded him how bad I had to go pee. Well he wanted to play with the keys. Keys are fun. I took the keys from him and unlocked the door. He was quite upset. I apologized for taking the keys and explained to him that I had to go so bad it hurt and I didn't want to wait any longer. I think it is rude to take something from someone's hands like this, so I apologized. He accepted my apology and asked if I felt better. Afterwards I thought I could have assured him he could play with the keys for as long as he wanted after I went and it may have been enough for him to let go of what he wanted to do at that moment and see what I needed to do at that moment! It's not as if I think an occaisional instance of putting my needs before his is going to have some long lasting devestating effect on my son or our relationship. It's not as if I was beating myself up for taking the keys and being less than consensual. What it is like is I realized afterwards one small sentence may have made the difference for it to be consensual. My recognizing his want may have helped him recognize my need. All that aside it was said and done and I think recognizing his feelings of upset and being understanding did help him understand were I was coming from.

Thanks for your post. You see -- I'd call your parenting PD? If you were to use these examples and then told me - if after your attemps at explanation, compromise, playful parenting, etc. don't work -- and DC still want to remain at park after dark or not let you go home ot cook dinner or something - and you went with their wishes - that is what i'd call "CL". The idea that at the end of the interaction - DC is never required to so anything they are objecting too.

Otherwise - your entire post comports exactly with my style of parenting - and I consider myself sort of a devotee of Jane Nelson's PD approach to parenting.

[MissRubyandKen]

Sure, but I am already married so we will have to move to like, Utah or something.

Does Utah have gay polygamy?

You know as far as I know if you can stay away from that urge to put it on paper you should be able to keep it legal anywhere

Oh and btw I always look forward to reading both of your posts, they're encouraging and inspiring (and well written too)

[MissRubyandKen]

Otherwise - your entire post comports exactly with my style of parenting - and I consider myself sort of a devotee of Jane Nelson's PD approach to parenting.

I've been waiting for my reservation on this book to come in at the library, it sounds like a good book

[captain crunchy]

Oh and btw I always look forward to reading both of your posts, they're encouraging and inspiring (and well written too

awww....we are getting all kinds of shout outs today aren't we Aira!

Bi polygamists who practice CL unite!

Thank you for your kind compliment missrubyandken, it does mean a lot to me that you feel that way

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by TripMom

if after your attemps at explanation, compromise, playful parenting, etc. don't work -- and DC still want to remain at park after dark or not let you go home ot cook dinner or something - and you went with their wishes - that is what i'd call "CL". The idea that at the end of the interaction - DC is never required to so anything they are objecting too.

i haven't personally seen anybody explaining CL like this on MDC, but I suppose that there are those who practice it that way all the time. Nevertheless, CL is not monolithic - there are as many permutations of it as there are families who practice it. i must admit that there have been days when i really had nothing to do and i did follow every one of my son's whims. not since i had #2 (because now i have to consider her needs too), but i remember those days well. they were pretty fun.

for me, CL is not about having no boundaries. it's not about doing whatever your kid wants. in fact, i think it's very much about boundaries in some ways. i have my own personal boundaries, as do my children and my husband. i respect ALL of them. and by respecting them and modeling that, i am showing my children how to effectively navigate interactions with others who also have boundaries. if i were a parent who used a certain amount of coercion, i would be showing my children that there are rules that they have to follow rather than that everbody they interact with has personal boundaries. i can't explain it, clearly LOL...ack.

instead of teaching them that MY rules and MY boundaries are the only ones to respect, i am trying to show them that we ALL have personal boundaries that matter just as much as anybody else's. my kids will of course need to learn how to navigate a world in which they don't get what they want all the time. but i personally feel that the best way to prepare them for that is to model how we can all benefit from compromising, even when it doesn't suit our fancy.

my children are equals to me and my husband. just because we were born first doesn't give us more rights. of course we have more experience, but that should make us MORE able to compromise, imo, not LESS so. and i guess i wonder how can we expect our kids to understand that they can't always have anything they want (a common "issue" ppl often have with CL) unless we model that ourselves? by US not always getting exactly what we want? life is about compromise, and i think parents should be willing to do it too.

god i hope this post makes sense.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Exactly, and furthermore, people who practice CL approach situations in the spirit of their being an actual reason the child doesn't want you to pee. Do they want to play more, do they think you're leaving for good, do they want to come with you, do they want to help, do they think they won't get to play when you come back, do they not understand? People on the authoritative side seem to feel that the child is just being *bratty* or *selfish*. It is a mindset.

You know, I consider myself quite authoritative, and I never think of my child as "bratty" or "selfish". I think it's very possible to be able to understand your child's reasons, needs, desires, goals, and likes, and still not practice consensual living. I really take offense at the idea that an authoritative parent's mindset is one that their child is out to get them or screw them over. I would even argue that there is very few moms with that attitude on this board, not just those of you who have chosen to practice "consensual living".

[faithnj]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

You know, it seems to be a common discussion regarding that my child is only 14 months old (almost). The pregnant mom will never understand the plight of the mom with the newborn, the mom of the one year old will never understand the plight of the mom with the 2 year old, the mom with the 6 year old will never understand the mom with the teen. I get that, but it doesn't mean I am willing to abandon my strongly held beliefs and outlook on life and how will raise our daughter.

I never claimed to be perfect. I never suggested parenting comes without challenges or frustrations or times when we will be at the end of our rope, that is par for the course.

I just know that self doubt and giving up in the face of adversity is a recipe for self sabotage. I refuse to let thoughts like "oh dear, what will happen when she is three" enter into my internal dialogue. Instead, I choose to say to myself "things will probably be more difficult in certain situations as she grows and matures, but we will get through them in the least coercive way possible." I think we create our own destiny to a large degree.

We will always live consensually as a whole, and strive for it in our daily interactions. As I pointed out above, no one is perfect, but it is something we strive for every day (I mean consensual living, not perfection lol) ...

I don't know what will happen if our daughter suddenly craves all these limits people speak of. I don't know if I buy into that philosophy that children really want to be controlled and told what to do and when to do it and that they need it. I think children thrive on information, knowing what to expect, knowing that their parents are always there for support and guidance if they need or want it, knowing they are loved and are free to make their own choices -- while also having the knowledge that their parents are a soft place to fall. We all have limits. I just don't want my daughter's limits to be imposed by me, if I can avoid it. In nearly every case, I can. That may be more challenging as she grows, but certainly not impossible. Also, I think the fact that we have parented this way from birth and that she is an only (and may always be) helps a lot. I would imagine it would be more difficult (but not impossible) to have parented differently then introduced consensual living, or when adding more family members into the mix -- but I have seen both done successfully.

Well, I don't think anyone has said you claimed to be perfect. And as for people saying your child isn't x number of years yet-- frankly, you may have wonderful insights into what it takes to parent a 14 year old. But that still does not negate the fact that 14 month olds are often a pleasure to parent, regardless of who's doing the parenting. My daughter was so cooperative and imitative and smart at 14 months-- if I could bottle that parenting experience and sell it, I would. At 19 months, she's not much older than your child, anyway, so it's not like I've forgotton what it was like already.

However, while children may thrive on information, support and love-- it's not the whole kit-n-kiboodle. The people who have found that they have children who did better with limits and boundries (as well as information, love and support) are a dime a dozen, quite frankly. Ideas about the need for boundries or "the wise restraints that make men free" don't come solely out of a parental need for domination and control. They come from experience, and from the fact that hindsight is often 20/20. (I just ran into a neighbor/parent of adult children, the other day, who said she wishes she had been firmer with her children when they were young.) This generation isn't the first one to look and decide they want to raise children differently than their dictatorial parents had done it-- with peace, love, respect, equality, etc. And if you look on this board, you'll find a few people who were raised GD and consensual.....perhaps more GD or consensual than you can imagine, and a few will tell you that while they weren't looking to be beat with wire coat hangers, they would have appreciated having a bit more conventional parents because when they were younger it's what they needed as individuals.

I was an only child raised by a mother doing things similarly to how things have been discribed on this board-- and quite frankly, a certain amount of freedom can actually feel like a lack of love, concern and support if it's not doaled out in response to the child's emotional needs. And what saddens me the most is that sometimes I see people who have more of a commitment to their ideas or some book than to what it is that their particular child needs as they grow. Freedom to make your own decisions doesn't always feel like a soft place to fall to a child who's unfamiliar with the world he or she lives in. Some people like to say that children know best. Uhhh, some children don't know best, and they know that they don't know best, but they are too afraid that their parents also don't have a clue, because the parents have spent a lifetime telling the kids there are no absolutes and the answer is whatever you think. Some children crave certainty. Some children will take advantage of a parent's laxness to do what they want-- which just happens to be wrong or illegal or harmful things. You don't have to spank a child to find they have choosen to experiment with drugs. You don't have to be punitive to find that your child is just the type to take the easy way out in life. Some really good and compassionate parents have raised some gosh awful human beings.

Whatever the case, nobody knows what their child is really going to need until they grow and present their needs to us as parents, day by day. But I realy hope more and more parents keep an open mind towards the possibility that what you'd like to provide might not be what is best suited to the child you actually have. Because until people start parenting the child they have, more than parenting to a philosophy-- we willcontinue to have children who feel like square pegs in round holes.

All the same, I don't claim to actually know what kind of mother you are or will be to your child. I'm just responding to the vibe that "x" ideas and responses will produce a "y" kind of child. I just personally don't think any of us can count on anything as it concerns our children, until the raising is all said and done. The smartest of kids get caught up in dumb stuff. Followers get burned and become independent. Sheltered kids go wild. Wild kids become Republicans. You just deal with each thing as it comes, if you ask me. None of us, as parents, control what/who we get as children (although some people certainly try.)

Faith
****edited to remove references to sexual orientation.

[aja-belly]

Originally Posted by mamachandi

I would love to know what books your reading/have read on gd. I have a 12 year old and am dealing with issues that didn't come up when she was younger...and am having trouble dealing with it...suggestions?? thanks! love your posts!

you ladies are gonna make his ego so big that we'll need a bigger family bed to fit his head!

we started out years ago reading alot of dr sears. my parents were big on sears (and the like) so that's the example i was comming from. in our long journey to parenthood we spent a good deal of time reading parenting books to eachother and theorizing. we have had alot of practice with younger family members and friend's children before jet ever came along. peter (shaggydaddy) is way into a kinda "evidence based parenting". he does what works.

anyways, to my knowledge he has not really read any gd books (although he has done alot of online reading). i'd like to take alot of credit for his ideals, but the truth is he treats everyone in a very cl way and that was one of the things that really drew me to him.

sorry to ramble - i am not nearly as eloquent as he is, but he has the luxury of posting at work while i am posting while jet "helps".

hope you don't mind me answering for peter, either. he is out seeing superman. gotta make use of the free time he has before he comes up here this weekend.

[loraxc]

n fact - all the examples posed by these PPs having to do with "transitions" - i.e. leaving the park, leaving the house, etc -- all your suggestions on how to handle them are the same way I would have handled them as a PD mom. Exaclty.

Here is the circumstance I've seen posed here many times before - that for me defines the KEY DIFFERENCE between CL and PD -- "If DS does not want leave the park - we don't leave - period - until he wants too" or "If DD does not want to get in his carseat - we don't go until DD wants too".

This is how I see the difference myself, after much reading here on MDC, and it is because of this difference that I would never define myself as CL--even though I, like you, would also use all those same tools from my toolbox.

Actually, we haven't had to do a forced exit in quite a while--maybe I am getting better at this!--but we have done them occasionally, and I will not rule them out. I will absolutely carry a screaming child out of a restaurant even if she is tantrumming and saying she does not want to go. That is part of my social code. I will also put a child in a carseat if I absolutely have to get somewhere and she is refusing. (Can't remember the last time I did this--it's been a while, maybe 6 months or more?--but I know I have.)

You know, I consider myself quite authoritative, and I never think of my child as "bratty" or "selfish". I think it's very possible to be able to understand your child's reasons, needs, desires, goals, and likes, and still not practice consensual living.

I echo this. 90% of the time I completely understand why DD is doing X undesirable thing. I empathize with her, and I tell her so. ("I know you've had a lot of fun here and that it's hard to go home.") I don't think she's being a brat at all. She's being two.

[aira]

I will absolutely carry a screaming child out of a restaurant even if she is tantrumming and saying she does not want to go.

I would too. No one in there consented to having a screaming meal... But we would stop outside where it's safe, hug or not, talk, listen, and determine what DS was needing (or wanting). Then I would add my thoughts to the frey, offer suggestions that might make DS feel heard and happier, and ultimately we would decide if his reason for wanting to be back in the restaurant was as important to him after calming down and considering it, as he first thought.

Just recently, his reason was that he was so intrigued with a miniature carosel, and hadn't had a chance to get a look at all the various animals. It was actually DH having this exchange with him, and they concluded that there was time to go back in and have another look and then leave. DH had just been concerned that DS would want to stay for a long time, and was eager to get back on the road. So he had said it was time to go now, and DS lost it.

But they just worked it out, and everyone was happy with the results.

[captain crunchy]

I agree with what incamama said.

Also, I think faithnj, you are confusing consensual living with "I don't give a crap what you do, just don't get killed" parenting and that is offensive. When you use words like "lax" and warn that children may feel unloved or uncared about as a result of this method of parenting, well, it shows me that either you don't get it, or don't choose to get it. That's cool.

I just don't believe imposing my will on my child to create an adversarial relationship, or even power struggles where we are both frustrated, angry, upset, and in the end I "put my foot down" goes any further to create a child who feels loved than the method we choose to raise our daughter with.

If my child ever approaches me and says, hey mama, I am feeling unloved, can you like, punish me or control more aspects of my life, well um, sure.

[aja-belly]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

If my child ever approaches me and says, hey mama, I am feeling unloved, can you like, punish me or control more aspects of my life, well um, sure.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I agree with what incamama said.

Also, I think faithnj, you are confusing consensual living with "I don't give a crap what you do, just don't get killed" parenting and that is offensive. When you use words like "lax" and warn that children may feel unloved or uncared about as a result of this method of parenting, well, it shows me that either you don't get it, or don't choose to get it. That's cool.

I just don't believe imposing my will on my child to create an adversarial relationship, or even power struggles where we are both frustrated, angry, upset, and in the end I "put my foot down" goes any further to create a child who feels loved than the method we choose to raise our daughter with.

If my child ever approaches me and says, hey mama, I am feeling unloved, can you like, punish me or control more aspects of my life, well um, sure.

Well, the intentionally not getting it seems to be a two way street.

Insinuating that the rest of us are imposing our wills on our children to create an adversarial relationships, intentionally getting into power struggles where you are both frustrated, angry, and upset (glad you'll be able to avoid all power struggles, BTW), and relying solely on "putting our feet down" is either naive or rude, especially after having read a few of the posts on this board.

[aira]

Originally Posted by CC

If my child ever approaches me and says, hey mama, I am feeling unloved, can you like, punish me or control more aspects of my life, well um, sure.

: Absolutely!

[aira]

Originally Posted by natensarah

and relying solely on "putting our feet down"

It's not relying solely (no one here thinks that the case), but willingness to do it at all. Thinking that one human has a right to do that to another human... because of a parent/child relationship.

That's the difference to me.