Anyone wanna talk about the conception of "gifted" status in children? - Page 3

[~member~]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

That is EXACTLY what I take issue with.

Only being academically gifted counts as being gifted.

That is BS.

Why? My oldest dd was doing calculus and physics when she was 5 years old. I know MANY adults, including myself, who have no frikkin' clue how to even BEGIN understanding those two subjects.
I didn't even know what the heck she was doing until CPS visited and made her get tested.
: I thought my dd was 'mentally challenged' because no one understood her. I even held her back a grade because I thought she was 'behind' and would fit 'better' with younger peers.

[boongirl]

I do believe that there is no such thing as an average child because we all have our gifts. But, education programs are often written for the "average" child according to statistical information. It would be literally impossible to write a curriculum that includes all students. I will give you on example of a class I taught: In a first grade class, I had one child who was probably mildly mentally retarded in many ways. She could not read letters or numbers. No matter what we tried, she could not remember what the symbols stood for. Her eyesight was fine but her understanding of abstract concepts on a visual basis was lacking for some reason. She was deprived of oxygen during birth but we knew not how this affected her exactly. The parents finally got her tested after that year but that is another story. Even though she could not read, she could recite any story that had been read aloud from memory and she knew how to explain such abstract concepts as culture to the whole class. She could locate and correctly identify any country on the globe, even though she could not read, because she had been shown where they were by her parents. She was unwilling to draw anything from her own imagination, but she could copy any picture or drawing almost perfectly. She was kind of like a savant of sorts. It was incredibly difficult to teach her with a class of 20 other kids. And, there were two full time teachers in this private school classroom! It was still nearly impossible to meet her needs, they were so unique. She was a classic example of a gifted person. She had behavior problems stemming from her disabilities and abilities. In the end, her parents signed her up for public school for second grade where she was to be placed in a regular classroom with a full time aid.

It is a badge of honor for some parents to have their child labelled gifted. These are typically middle and upper class parents for whom academic achievement is important. But, in reality, their children are not all that gifted. They are merely, like me, academically advanced. To have a truly gifted child is not a badge of honor. It is greatly difficult to have a truly gifted child because they are so different from average. It is a challenge to be their parent or teacher.

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

That is EXACTLY what I take issue with.

Only being academically gifted counts as being gifted.

That is BS.

Because there is only money for this. In an ideal world, there would be money to teach everyone to their gifts and meet everyone's needs.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

Why? My oldest dd was doing calculus and physics when she was 5 years old. I know MANY adults, including myself, who have no frikkin' clue how to even BEGIN understanding those two subjects.
I didn't even know what the heck she was doing until CPS visited and made her get tested.
: I thought my dd was 'mentally challenged' because no one understood her. I even held her back a grade because I thought she was 'behind' and would fit 'better' with younger peers.

Because gifted simple means to be inclined in an area. That should not be limited to academics.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

Why? My oldest dd was doing calculus and physics when she was 5 years old. I know MANY adults, including myself, who have no frikkin' clue how to even BEGIN understanding those two subjects.
I didn't even know what the heck she was doing until CPS visited and made her get tested.
: I thought my dd was 'mentally challenged' because no one understood her. I even held her back a grade because I thought she was 'behind' and would fit 'better' with younger peers.

Well that's great, MITB, but your daughter's mathematical ability was not what AngelBee was addressing. Her point, as I understand it, is that talent such as you describe above is only ONE form of 'gifted' ability or talent, and that many others are not recognized.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by boongirl

Because there is only money for this. In an ideal world, there would be money to teach everyone to their gifts and meet everyone's needs.

[~member~]

Originally Posted by thismama

Oh but see it's fine to shortchange the 'average' children, coz they will be sheeple anyway, according to the logic. It's only the gifteds whose minds we must protect.

I don't consider it 'protecting' their minds, so much as meeting their needs.

[Charles Baudelaire]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

That is EXACTLY what I take issue with.

Only being academically gifted counts as being gifted.

That is BS.

It's really not just that, any more than the label "profoundly retarded" is entirely defined by being academically challenged. The rest of what I said was this:

"...brains process information faster and retain it longer than the norm; that their ability to make connections between and among disparate objects and events is normal or universal, nor that it is normal or universal for a child's intellectual development to be far in excess of their age, if that is what you mean by "gifted."

Those other components count as well because they are also features of what we're calling (on this thread) "giftedness."

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by thismama

Well that's great, MITB, but your daughter's mathematical ability was not what AngelBee was addressing. Her point, as I understand it, is that talent such as you describe above is only ONE form of 'gifted' ability or talent, and that many others are not recognized.

I honestly find it to be a form of discrimination.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by boongirl

Because there is only money for this. In an ideal world, there would be money to teach everyone to their gifts and meet everyone's needs.

But WHY is there only money for this? It is because it is valued more highly than other types of gifts, because it is seen as the only valid gift.

ETA - Cross-post - ITA, AngelBee.

[~member~]

Originally Posted by boongirl

I do believe that there is no such thing as an average child because we all have our gifts. But, education programs are often written for the "average" child according to statistical information. It would be literally impossible to write a curriculum that includes all students. I will give you on example of a class I taught: In a first grade class, I had one child who was probably mildly mentally retarded in many ways. She could not read letters or numbers. No matter what we tried, she could not remember what the symbols stood for. Her eyesight was fine but her understanding of abstract concepts on a visual basis was lacking for some reason. She was deprived of oxygen during birth but we knew not how this affected her exactly. The parents finally got her tested after that year but that is another story. Even though she could not read, she could recite any story that had been read aloud from memory and she knew how to explain such abstract concepts as culture to the whole class. She could locate and correctly identify any country on the globe, even though she could not read, because she had been shown where they were by her parents. She was unwilling to draw anything from her own imagination, but she could copy any picture or drawing almost perfectly. She was kind of like a savant of sorts. It was incredibly difficult to teach her with a class of 20 other kids. And, there were two full time teachers in this private school! It was still nearly impossible to meet her needs, they were so unique. She was a classic example of a gifted person. She had behavior problems stemming from her disabilities and abilities. In the end, her parents signed her up for public school for second grade where she was to be placed in a regular classroom with a full time aid.

It is a badge of honor for some parents to have their child labelled gifted. These are typically middle and upper class parents for whom academic achievement is important. But, in reality, their children are not all that gifted. They are merely, like me, academically advanced. To have a truly gifted child is not a badge of honor. It is greatly difficult to have a truly gifted child because they are so different from average. It is a challenge to be their parent or teacher.

Thank you.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

I don't consider it 'protecting' their minds, so much as meeting their needs.

Well, I think all children deserve to have their needs met, and children who do not happen to excel on the IQ test are not any less entitled to having their needs met than children who get the label.

[thismama]

And what's with all the 'gifted' 1 and 2 year olds these days?? Back in my day, at least it was a non-issue til the testing in grade 4. Too. Much. Pressure.

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by thismama

No, not for the same reasons, because being a parent of a child who has profound developmental delays is very, very different from being a parent of a child who receives a positive label, great accolades, and shiny predictions for his/her future. Completely different things.

You have obviously never met a truly, profoundly gifted child. They have just as many issues in a regular classroom as a delayed child. The reason that IQ tests are used is that they give a picture of how different a child can be from average.

An IQ of 100 to 130 is average
An IQ of 50-99 is delayed but can still be taught in regular school.
An IQ of 130-160 is gifted but can often still be taught in a regular school.
An IQ of 160+ is a very strange (to the average person) person who thinks very differently than the rest of us and is often having tremendous difficulties in school and at home. There is no badge of honor to have a child this intelligent. It is very difficult to have this child's needs met and these children are very rare indeed. More and more, these children are being homeschooled because that is the only way they are able to develop at the pace appropriate for them.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by boongirl

You have obviously never met a truly, profoundly gifted child.

Dude, I went to a gifted SCHOOL for years. If I've never met a truly profoundly gifted child, there is something WRONG with the system.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by boongirl

It is very difficult to have this child's needs met and these children are very rare indeed.

And, if they are so rare, why are they popping up all over the place these days?

[BusyMommy]

Personally, I will not have my kids tested.

Professionally, I'm all for it b/c classrooms are so overcrowded and we have so many diverse needs that it is impossible to adquately honor them all. My last school was from a high socio-econo. neighborhood and I had tons & tons of parent support. My previous school was the poorest in town and it was a fight just to capture the kids' attention. Pity the poor gifted child trying to learn & grow while I'm evacuating the classroom to avoid the child throwing desks and books at everyone w/in range.

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by thismama

But WHY is there only money for this? It is because it is valued more highly than other types of gifts, because it is seen as the only valid gift.

ETA - Cross-post - ITA, AngelBee.

Because there just is only so much money for districts and schools to use. They have to make decisions about how the money is going to be spent and they often shortchange the gifted because they think they are at least going to do ok in school. They need the money for the special education children and for counselors and for other programs. For example, I taught a gifted pullout program in a large, very well-to-do district with many, many upper middle class families. There was one profoundly gifted program in one school and there was no district transportation for it. If you could not get your child there on your own, no matter how intelligent they were, your child had to go to his/her neighborhood school where there was only a 2 hour a week pullout gifted program. That is all there was money for. It is just a reality. I know because I participated in the program review for that district. I know how much money was allocated and how it was spent to the best of our abilities. Would you have the gifted program take money away from the music program, denying elementary children music? Would you cancel their recess, firing all recess aids? Would you stop buying new books for the library? Would you cut the school day shorter in order to pay teacher's less? How would you find the money?

[~member~]

Originally Posted by thismama

Well that's great, MITB, but your daughter's mathematical ability was not what AngelBee was addressing. Her point, as I understand it, is that talent such as you describe above is only ONE form of 'gifted' ability or talent, and that many others are not recognized.

Her 'ability' extends far wider than the mathematical concepts. I figured most would 'understand' the math part.
It is like every part of her brain is on fire....I don't know how to explain it.

Originally Posted by thismama

Well, I think all children deserve to have their needs met, and children who do not happen to excel on the IQ test are not any less entitled to having their needs met than children who get the label.

No one said differently!!! ITA that EVERY human being deserves to have their needs met. That includes 'gifted' humans!

[~member~]

Originally Posted by thismama

And, if they are so rare, why are they popping up all over the place these days?

It is rare if you realize just how many children are on this earth.
In the past millions of children never had access to 'education'. They were labeled weird or outcasts.