About helping "neophytes" - Page 2

[kldliam]

Zeldas mom:

If they unintentionally come off bad here and their only experience with folks who choose to not circ is exremely negative, they can just write off the choice to not circ as something only crazy extremists do

I just don't buy that line of logic. You either do or you don't and I don't.

BTW, what exactly is your detailed definition of "crazy extremist"? I don't think that anyone at MDC/CAC displays that behavior. Are you referring to someone or something in particular? If yes, may I ask what line of text suggests that crazy extremists dwell here? Thanks.

[trmpetplaya]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond!

Originally Posted by kldliam

BTW, what exactly is your detailed definition of "crazy extremist"? I don't think that anyone at MDC/CAC displays that behavior. Are you referring to someone or something in particular? If yes, may I ask what line of text suggests that crazy extremists dwell here? Thanks.

I don't think she was saying that SHE thinks we're crazy extremists (after all SHE didn't circumcise and advocates against it), but that other people who are still culturally indoctrinated might think we were Several people I know of in real life would call me a crazy extremist.... if they only knew what I believe about certain things And I was not referring only to this recent incident and certainly not specifically to anyone on this board in the OP. It's more about how we as a whole can handle these situations that come up without alienating people who may come across as being trolls and who may not really be. And the lurkers!

I mean... we've all had posts that were misinterpreted, right? I had one just the other day. I didn't read it at all the way that several other people did (I understand why they did after the fact and am truly sorry ) and I corrected it as soon as possible, but I imagine that if that had been my first post here : I would never have come back. Never. I was upset enough as it was at it being taken in a way I hadn't meant it (almost cried actually). If I hadn't been on this board as long as I have been, I would probably have been awfully snarky in reply (before leaving for good) and no doubt would have been labeled a troll. My stupid post is one reason why I'm so interested in giving people the benefit of the doubt right now (and why I won't be posting here at 2am when I'm really tired anymore : ).

I don't think that people actually circumcise because of a bad experience with an intactivist, but having a bad experience with an intactivist could push away someone who may have listened to reason eventually. So I agree with Nay, that we should educate regardless of whether or not we're convinced someone is a troll. Having a specific thread/sticky to point them to would probably help with some of the frustration of posting a ton for their benefit though

love and peace.

[cristina63303]

Crazy extremists

Elaborating on the "crazy extremists" concept, there's one issue I've given a lot of thought about and don't really know how to go about solving:

Many so-called AP parenting decisions tend to live in groups: Co-sleeping, nursing, CD, organic foods, no vax, no circumcision. All "crunchy", so to speak.

The thing is, many people react instinctively AGAINST crunchiness or Eco-mamas. I know, because (don't shoot me, please) I have a little bit of that. Look, I've nursed for the past 6 years of my life non stop (through two additional pregnancies and in tandem) but I strongly believe vaxing is a good idea : . And I really think there's not much chance of me being convinced otherwise. My kids are welcome to our bed but on the other issues I don't really care either way and I prefer traditional medicine to homeopathy and the like.

And I'm not trying to start an out-of-place vaxing debate here, I'm just trying to optimize our chances of opening people's eyes on circumcision being what it really is: an atrocity.

The problem is that IF a newbie comes in and immediately gets the sense that everyone here is a green whako (not my opinion, but possible outside perception), then they'll discount our statements on circumcision accordingly. Not good for our cause. We need to 1) separate the issues and 2) make sure we show intactness to be a mainstream option outside America, an option supported by doctors who practice traditional medicine in highly technological settings.

What do you guys think? Have you thought about it too? I seem to remember there was a recent thread about this on the (I think) AP forum that got really nasty...

P.S. Gosh, I'm scared to click on "submit reply". I hope you guys will take this as it is intended. If there's anything I've not worded carefully enough, please forgive me and keep in mind that English is not my first language (Spanish is)

[+stella+]

I guess I just feel if someone is looking for reasons not to do it, they already have that seed planted. Maybe I dont give people enough credit. But I know soo many parents who dont research A THING!!! they just do what all their friends do or saw on tv or what their parents did, and usually its mainstream stuff that is detrimental to children. Like CIO, or not trying to bf, etc. (same as pp, not trying to debate vax or saying people who do dont research it) but as much as generalizations are bad, they are generalizations based on observation. I see people only really looking for the research to back something up if they feel like they want to go against the norm. Like not circing. I feel if the seed is planted they will be open to education, and if they are just looking for a fight then they were lost to us to begin with. I guess it all has to do with the tone of the poster initially. I kinda feel "off" when someone says they tried to research circ and only found opinions on the anti circ side. I mean there are tons of anecdotal evidence on both sides but HELLO, the AAP stance isnt great but it spells out that it is not medically neccessary. ugh, its late and I know what Im trying to get across isnt making sense or even a point really. I just dont think we will win someone over who comes in here with an awful attitude to begin with and who doesnt even read the things presented to them, no matter how much we play nicey nice.

In conclusion though, I think with any newbie that makes a post asking for questions, we should answer with only the links and reputible facts and not get too emotional and/or personal until their true colors are revealed. Because the internet loves drama, and there is a lot of potential for it.

edit cause i cant type or spell ><

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by cristina63303

Elaborating on the "crazy extremists" concept, there's one issue I've given a lot of thought about and don't really know how to go about solving:

Many so-called AP parenting decisions tend to live in groups: Co-sleeping, nursing, CD, organic foods, no vax, no circumcision. All "crunchy", so to speak.

The thing is, many people react instinctively AGAINST crunchiness or Eco-mamas. I know, because (don't shoot me, please) I have a little bit of that. Look, I've nursed for the past 6 years of my life non stop (through two additional pregnancies and in tandem) but I strongly believe vaxing is a good idea : . And I really think there's not much chance of me being convinced otherwise. My kids are welcome to our bed but on the other issues I don't really care either way and I prefer traditional medicine to homeopathy and the like.

And I'm not trying to start an out-of-place vaxing debate here, I'm just trying to optimize our chances of opening people's eyes on circumcision being what it really is: an atrocity.

The problem is that IF a newbie comes in and immediately gets the sense that everyone here is a green whako (not my opinion, but possible outside perception), then they'll discount our statements on circumcision accordingly. Not good for our cause. We need to 1) separate the issues and 2) make sure we show intactness to be a mainstream option outside America, an option supported by doctors who practice traditional medicine in highly technological settings.

What do you guys think? Have you thought about it too? I seem to remember there was a recent thread about this on the (I think) AP forum that got really nasty...

P.S. Gosh, I'm scared to click on "submit reply". I hope you guys will take this as it is intended. If there's anything I've not worded carefully enough, please forgive me and keep in mind that English is not my first language (Spanish is)

Totally true, IME.

Think about it this way.....think of how often LLL is labeled the "breast nazi" organization, a comparison I find highly, highly offensive. But look at how deeply FF is ingrained in our culture, and how difficult it can be for lactivists to get the BF message across to someone who FFs, was FF, everyone she knows FFs and was FF and is "JUST FINE."

You're not going to get across to that person in a day-long exchange on the Internet unless you don't write her off when she doesn't see the light right away.

The point here is we need to keep them coming back. People do get defensive when something they have believed to be good their entire lives is attacked, and they're attacked for even considering doing it! So they cop an attitude when they feel like everyone's ganging up on them. So what? If you don't like it, don't sink to that level and cop an attitude back. Just walk away. Let the person have some time to digest the stuff, she's not going to change years worth of conditioning in 8 hours' time!

[njeb]

Thank you for bringing this up, trmpetplaya. I completely agree with you; we need to gove people the benefit of the doubt before we declare them to be trolls. It IS hard to give up a lifetime's worth of conditioning.

[Revamp]

Originally Posted by njeb

Thank you for bringing this up, trmpetplaya. I completely agree with you; we need to gove people the benefit of the doubt before we declare them to be trolls. It IS hard to give up a lifetime's worth of conditioning.

So very true.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by +stella+

In conclusion though, I think with any newbie that makes a post asking for questions, we should answer with only the links and reputible facts and not get too emotional and/or personal until their true colors are revealed. Because the internet loves drama, and there is a lot of potential for it.

Excellent point. And then just stop posting when the OP is obviously a drama queen (or king). Just let the thread die out. He/she will come back in a nicer manner if he/she still wants more information.

[Lula's Mom]

Now THIS needs to be a sticky for US! "Rules for regular posters in CAC".

[Yoshua]

Originally Posted by A&A

Who ONLY circ'd for that reason? Give me a break. They were looking for a reason to do it in the first place, and with us they just found their scapegoat.

not being snarky.


But.... does it really matter?


Do you WANT to be that scape goat?


It is possible to change anyones mind on this subject. I don't think it is impossible.


However I would rather try to gently educate and fail, than to chastise and cause.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by Yoshua

not being snarky.



Do you WANT to be that scape goat?

.

I don't own their behavior nor their feelings, so in that sense, I don't really care. Sometimes I cut my losses and move on to someone who will actually listen. I only have so much energy.

[Yoshua]

Originally Posted by A&A

I don't own their behavior nor their feelings, so in that sense, I don't really care. Sometimes I cut my losses and move on to someone who will actually listen. I only have so much energy.

I get that, and agree with that.


I just don't find being snarky or judgemental to be a good teaching tool in general. Not saying you ARE, just going from the original comment you posted.



Most times when someone uses an Intactivist as a scapegoat it is because we come off as elitest or insinuate they are naive or dumb. I'd rather take the educational, gentle approach and then cut my losses if they still don't want to listen.

[bdavis337]

Originally Posted by A&A

I think roughly 100 posts of us trying to be nice (well, most of you) and getting the "you don't know what you're talking about" crap shows us otherwise.

You think we're tough? Have you ever ventured over into the vax forum or even the cloth diapering forum? If you don't immediately know what you're talking about, or ask any sort of questions to clarify things in your own mind, they eat you alive. We're pushovers in comparison!

See, that made me laugh a bit. I can hold my own in the cd forum, but I'm a floundering moron over here and in the vax arena. I WANT to know more, so I'm following the posts and reading and lurking. The stickies are nice, but they don't always address a specific issue on it's own, and I must admit to a moderate amt of laziness.....

OT - the diapering forum is actually just that - diapering. Most of the users assume it's a cloth diapering forum, but it's not. It's Diapering, and while the majority of those who hang out there are cloth users, occasionally a sposie user wanders in and gets burned at the stake for their mistake.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by Yoshua

I just don't find being snarky or judgemental to be a good teaching tool in general.

Agreed. But after 50, or 75, or 100 posts, eventually one decides that the OP isn't up for being taught.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by bdavis337

See, that made me laugh a bit. I can hold my own in the cd forum, but I'm a floundering moron over here and in the vax arena. I WANT to know more, so I'm following the posts and reading and lurking. The stickies are nice, but they don't always address a specific issue on it's own, and I must admit to a moderate amt of laziness.....

OT - the diapering forum is actually just that - diapering. Most of the users assume it's a cloth diapering forum, but it's not. It's Diapering, and while the majority of those who hang out there are cloth users, occasionally a sposie user wanders in and gets burned at the stake for their mistake.

Hey, we don't want you to feel like a "floundering moron" here. What can we help you with?

And in the diapering forum, perhaps I just met the wrong poster, but it seems to me that if you're not already USING cloth, you're just interested in the concept, and you can't talk about what "fluffy mail" you have coming, they don't want to have you around.

[kxsiven]

Originally Posted by A&A

Agreed. But after 50, or 75, or 100 posts, eventually one decides that the OP isn't up for being taught.

And that is a sure sign of pro-circ troll. This forum has been trolled quite often lately - I wonder what is up.

The truth is MDC is pink, fluffy tinkerbell place compared to actual debate boards out there. I've never seen any posts on this forum that reach anywhere near the level used in circ debate boards on other parenting boards.

[wendy1221]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I get what you're saying and I agree 100%.

ANd I want to tell what happened to me about 3 years ago: I was pregnant with my 2nd boy, my dh's first. I did not circ my first ds and I was very against it. However my dh is Jewish and felt it was something he just had to do (and he IS a practicing Jew, unlike a lot of Jewish men who do it, which seems to be the first question asked.) I was not a member of MDC yet. I'm not sure how that worked, maybe you didn't need to register then? Anyway, I can't find the posts, my join date is well after that, but I'm 100% sure it was here and I know for sure there was one poster who I clearly remember attacking me who no longer posts in this forum. I have seen her on other forums, however.

ANyway, I felt attacked. People jumped right on me and said divorce my husband, take the baby and leave, what's wrong w/ me considering letting someone mutilate my baby? blah blah blah. I WAS attacked. I came here asking for info to help me convince my dh not to do it and instead of getting the support and info I wanted/needed, I was attacked.

I have seen the same thing happen on other threads. Jumping on somebody and calling them names, or telling them they're mutilating their child, etc, IS NOT HELPING THE CAUSE. It's making those people feel attacked and defensive. We need to be supportive and gently ease these people into intactivism. Harsh language that puts people on the defensive is definitely not helping. It may even be hurting the cause!

I left MDC and didn't come back for months before I joined. ANd even then, I avoided this forum for a while. Even though I had found the info ON MY OWN (b/c it was important to me) and ds2 (and ds3) was left intact, I did not feel comfortable here after the way I had been treated. I think if this had been less important to me, I would have said, screw those jerks! I love my dh and if this is important to him, I guess I can deal. But I found the info on my own, b/c it was important to me. THe language used when I came here for help turned me away when I needed a forum like this most. Just my opinion.

[Revamp]

Hmm...There is some threat of us hoary old vetrans terrifying/isolating new comers.

We should do our best to avoid that: the case against is so simple it does not *need* angry confrontation.

[kldliam]

'old vet' speaks

The truth is MDC is pink, fluffy tinkerbell place compared to actual debate boards out there. I've never seen any posts on this forum that reach anywhere near the level used in circ debate boards on other parenting boards.

This is so true. It is not always wise to tiptoe around people. Especially trolls. Polite sugar-like people don't get remembered and neither does their rhetoric. It's quite the opposite in fact. Look, we are literally involved in a battle so-to-speak. You may only think that it is an educational effort that we are involved in, but it is much much more than that for alot of us.

When you are fighting something evil, it is not always wise to be polite and well-mannered. Just ask our president and a bunch of the other fatcats in DC.

[Revamp]

Originally Posted by kldliam

When you are fighting something evil, it is not always wise to be polite and well-manered. Just ask our president and a bunch of the other fatcats in DC.

Hmm...

I had never considered ordering high-circ rate cities to evacuate all civilians and then bombing them before. It sounds like an unorthodox intactivist tactics but if it got results there then why not here?

Perhaps...