Quick clarification about IQ scores

[eilonwy]

Which one is profoundly gifted, 140+, 160+ or 180+? It depends on the test! An explanation. I've seen a lot of confusion on this issue and I thought that this site might help.

[LadyMarmalade]

Thanks so much for posting this!

Can I use this thread to piggy back? I've read a few posts where I didn't know how to address the issue without it coming off wrong (this thread isn't one of them, though ).

I wanted to point out that IQ is not necessarily an indicator of giftedness ... a lot of people are under the false assumption that a high IQ automatically means the person is gifted. A lot of people with a high IQ *are* gifted, but the link isn't automatic. Also, some gifted people don't have a high IQ.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade

Thanks so much for posting this!

I also wanted to point out that IQ is not necessarily an indicator of giftedness ... a lot of people are under the false assumption that a high IQ automatically means the person is gifted. A lot of people with a high IQ *are* gifted, but the link isn't automatic.

Tell me more. I would agree that a high IQ doesn't mean high acheivement. And, that it is possible to be gifted and not score highly on an IQ test. And, possible to be high acheiving without being gifted. But by very definition a person who scores high on an IQ test is intellectually gifted. It isn't really possible to overscore.

[catgirl]

Originally Posted by Roar

Tell me more. I would agree that a high IQ doesn't mean high acheivement. And, that it is possible to be gifted and not score highly on an IQ test. And, possible to be high acheiving without being gifted. But by very definition a person who scores high on an IQ test is intellectually gifted. It isn't really possible to overscore.

Yeah, it's like a pregnancy test. You can get a false negative, but there's no such thing as a false positive. If you can answer those questions, then you earned the score you got.

[LadyMarmalade]

Originally Posted by catgirl

Yeah, it's like a pregnancy test. You can get a false negative, but there's no such thing as a false positive. If you can answer those questions, then you earned the score you got.

Huh? You CAN get a false positive. It's much less likely than a false negative, but it happens. Just check the packet - it's written out clearly.

With regards to IQ tests, if you answer the questions, then you most likely deserve the score you got - but your score has very little weight with regards to your gifted status. IQ score and gifted status have VERY LITTLE to do with each other. As we all know, many gifted people don't get the IQ score they 'deserve'. And that's not even touching on the cultural bias inherent in IQ testing which also skews scores. It's yet another battle we have to fight. Advocacy and activism in giftedness is a challenge because it involves deconstructing and challenging so many things society has no idea about or sees as normal.

Tell me more. I would agree that a high IQ doesn't mean high acheivement. And, that it is possible to be gifted and not score highly on an IQ test. And, possible to be high acheiving without being gifted. But by very definition a person who scores high on an IQ test is intellectually gifted. It isn't really possible to overscore.

I remember having the same confusion when I first started looking more deeply into giftedness and its manifestations.

I agree with what you've said - firstly a high IQ doesn't mean high achievement, secondly that you can be gifted and not score highly on an IQ test, and thirdly that you can be a high achiever without being gifted. And yes, I also agree that someone who has a high IQ is intellectually gifted by common/societal definition... but it comes down to semantics again. Most people involved in gifted communities reject the view society has of giftedness. Being intellectually gifted isn't always the same as being 'gifted'. Intellectually gifted is really just another way to say "I have a high IQ", whereas 'gifted' means you've got a brain dysfunction. You can score highly on an IQ test and be intellectually gifted without having a brain which functions differently as it does in truly 'gifted' people.

A lot of kids with high IQs (ie intellectually gifted children) are automatically being given the 'gifted' label when they're *not* gifted at all. It's a big problem in schools, and it's done some harmful things to understanding the support which truly gifted children need.

I think the difference between 'gifted' and 'talented' is also important and should be recognised, especially when talking about labeling children.

Edited for a typo.

[LadyMarmalade]

I just found this on a 'Myths about giftedness' page:

Gifted and Talented means the same thing:
Again, not necessarily. There is no rule that states that a child who is capable of scoring to the high ninety percentiles on group achievement testing must be considered gifted. We must remember that achievement tests like the Metropolitan Achievement Tests are "Grade Level Testing". Such a child is most definitely Academically Talented. But further individualized IQ and out of level academic testing must be given before we can define that child as "Gifted". At the same time, there is no rule that states a child identified as gifted should be Achieving to high standards in the classroom. This type of stereotyping can do serious and irreversible damage to both groups. ANY child can benefit from enrichment. Academically Talented Children can benefit from Honors (Grade Level) Classes. Intellectually Gifted children need a differentiated curriculum and possibly even a different environment.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade

I just found this on a 'Myths about giftedness' page: Gifted and Talented means the same thing:
Again, not necessarily. There is no rule that states that a child who is capable of scoring to the high ninety percentiles on group achievement testing must be considered gifted. We must remember that achievement tests like the Metropolitan Achievement Tests are "Grade Level Testing". Such a child is most definitely Academically Talented. But further individualized IQ and out of level academic testing must be given before we can define that child as "Gifted". At the same time, there is no rule that states a child identified as gifted should be Achieving to high standards in the classroom. This type of stereotyping can do serious and irreversible damage to both groups. ANY child can benefit from enrichment. Academically Talented Children can benefit from Honors (Grade Level) Classes. Intellectually Gifted children need a differentiated curriculum and possibly even a different environment.

This is really different than saying that a child can overscore on an IQ test. Yes, a child can be a high acheiver and score highly on a group acheivement test without being gifted. What this quote is saying is that type of testing alone doesn't determine if a child is gifted.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade

Huh? You CAN get a false positive. It's much less likely than a false negative, but it happens. Just check the packet - it's written out clearly.

Packet?

A child can't overscore on an IQ test. A child can score as being a high acheiver on tests of acheivement without being gifted, but overscoring isn't a significant issue on individual IQ tests. It isn't like a multiple choice test where a person can make lucky guesses.

Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade

With regards to IQ tests, if you answer the questions, then you most likely deserve the score you got - but your score has very little weight with regards to your gifted status. IQ score and gifted status have VERY LITTLE to do with each other.

What you are suggesting is not what I've read or heard anywhere else about this subject. Would you care to post a link?

Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade

Being intellectually gifted isn't always the same as being 'gifted'. Intellectually gifted is really just another way to say "I have a high IQ", whereas 'gifted' means you've got a brain dysfunction. You can score highly on an IQ test and be intellectually gifted without having a brain which functions differently as it does in truly 'gifted' people.

Huh? How is being gifted a brain dyfunction? Dysfunction is impaired functioning as in something not working well.

Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade

A lot of kids with high IQs (ie intellectually gifted children) are automatically being given the 'gifted' label when they're *not* gifted at all. It's a big problem in schools, and it's done some harmful things to understanding the support which truly gifted children need.

If you said that a lot of schools do pretty poor testing and make placements on the basis of not very accurate group testing or on the basis soley of acheivement I agree. If you said many schools have gifted programs that are really more about being academically advanced that gifted, I agree. I don't agree though that many children are given individual IQ tests, score high and aren't really gifted.

[eilonwy]

It's possible to be a gifted musician and not be intellectually gifted. It's possible to be a gifted athlete and not be intellectually gifted. What makes gifted musicians and athletes similar to intellectually gifted folks is the intensity and drive that they so often exhibit from an early age. A mathematically gifted child will find a way to incorporate/use mathematical concepts as often as possible. A musically gifted child will drive teachers and tutors to distraction with their raw talent and refusal/inability to channel said talent in typical directions. They're driven in ways that most people don't understand and can't accept.

It's possible to be gifted and not score very highly on an IQ test, but it's not possible for someone who scores very highly on an IQ test not to be gifted.

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

For the record, while it is possible to get a falsely low score on an IQ test, they are designed so that you can't get a falsely high one. Any IQ test score in isolation should be regarded as a baseline, rather than an upper limit.

[allgirls]

That's how I understand it too Eilonwy..

When I think of gifted musicians I think of Ashley MacIsaac, the fiddler...of all the fiddlers in Cape Breton(and there are a LOT) he's a genius...just pure genius...and he's troubled and wierd and driven and crazy. But as far as I am concerned, pure genius. Your definition fits him perfect!

[Sharlla]

Both DH and I have high IQs but I don't consider either of us to be "gifted".

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by Sharlla

Both DH and I have high IQs but I don't consider either of us to be "gifted".

why not?

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

It's possible to be gifted and not score very highly on an IQ test, but it's not possible for someone who scores very highly on an IQ test not to be gifted.

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

For the record, while it is possible to get a falsely low score on an IQ test, they are designed so that you can't get a falsely high one. Any IQ test score in isolation should be regarded as a baseline, rather than an upper limit.

I agree with this. A child who is mathematically gifted but not verbally, for example, will not score high in verbal areas of the test. But, they still may be very much gifted in math. And it would be highly improbable for a child to get a high score on the test through guessing at answers. Thus, false high scores are unheard of.

A lot of the confusion about who is gifted comes from the definition of giftedness. Like the word 'art', gifted means different things to different people. For most school districts in the USA, gifted means academically gifted, in particular in the areas of math and verbal skills. Related to this, a person could be "gifted' in a sport or dance or music, but there are rarely gifted programs in school for these gifts. Usually, these kind of gifts or talents are taken care of at home through private lessons or specialized athletic instruction.

So, for the sake of argument, when public schools discuss giftedness, they are meaning giftedness related to the tests they use. For example, both school districts where I have worked use the CogAt which do not give you an IQ score, per say, but they are roughly translated to an IQ score. The percentile a child scores is roughly translated to mean an IQ of between X and Y. Scoring high on the CogAt means you are academically gifted in the areas of logical-mathematical intelligence and verbal-linguistic intelligence.

In my experience, it is possible to score high in one area only, but that is very, very rare. It is also possible for a gifted child to not score high on the test if the test is in a different language than the one they are speaking most frequently, if the test is testing them in areas different than their gifts, and if they are just not interested in playing this game and purposely answer questions incorrectly. I have had children in all of the aforementioned areas score too low for the programs. If this happens, and parents and/or teacher complain that the child really needs to be in the program, I have given retests. The ESL child can be retested with a nonverbal test. The child purposely scoring low on the test can get some counseling and can be given a retest, at which time we hope they will take the test more seriously and actually try. The culturally different child is the hardest one to retest but they sometimes do better on the nonverbal test as well.

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by Roar

Huh? How is being gifted a brain dyfunction? Dysfunction is impaired functioning as in something not working well.


I don't agree though that many children are given individual IQ tests, score high and aren't really gifted.

For once, I agree with you. It does gifted children and adults a disservice to say they have a brain disfunction. Their brain may be functioning differently than the brain of an average person, but it is not disfunctional.

And I also agree that there is really on such thing as a false high score on an IQ type test. There may be children who guess at a few questions and guess correctly, thus putting their score higher than their actual intelligence, especially when they are very close to the cutoff for programming. But, who cares? They are still intelligent enough to hang out with the kids who really are scoring high enough to be in the program. And, it is not like it is obvious, as a gifted program teacher, who scored falsely high.

[oldcrunchymom]

Originally Posted by allgirls

When I think of gifted musicians I think of Ashley MacIsaac, the fiddler...of all the fiddlers in Cape Breton(and there are a LOT) he's a genius...just pure genius...and he's troubled and wierd and driven and crazy. But as far as I am concerned, pure genius. Your definition fits him perfect!

See, I knew there was a reason I liked you. I LOVE Ashley MacIsaac!

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by lckrause

See, I knew there was a reason I liked you. I LOVE Ashley MacIsaac!

Isn't he the greatest...you know I saw him in concert when I was pregnant with Sophia and my friend said "that baby is going to be a genius from one concert" he was that great. He mesmorizes me.

[LadyMarmalade]

Originally Posted by Roar

This is really different than saying that a child can overscore on an IQ test. Yes, a child can be a high acheiver and score highly on a group acheivement test without being gifted. What this quote is saying is that type of testing alone doesn't determine if a child is gifted.

I'm having trouble understanding where the problem lies. I agree with everything you said here - you just repeated everything I said: that a child can be a high achiever and score highly without being gifted, and that the testing alone isn't enough for a diagnosis of giftedness.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade

I'm having trouble understanding where the problem lies. I agree with everything you said here - you just repeated everything I said: that a child can be a high achiever and score highly without being gifted, and that the testing alone isn't enough for a diagnosis of giftedness.

What I disagree with...in an earlier post you said.

Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade

I wanted to point out that IQ is not necessarily an indicator of giftedness ... a lot of people are under the false assumption that a high IQ automatically means the person is gifted. A lot of people with a high IQ *are* gifted, but the link isn't automatic. Also, some gifted people don't have a high IQ.

I disagree with this. A high IQ means that a person is gifted. It isn't possible to overscore on an IQ test.

[LadyMarmalade]

Originally Posted by Roar

Packet?

Yes, the box it comes it. It clearly states that false positives are possible.

A child can't overscore on an IQ test. A child can score as being a high acheiver on tests of acheivement without being gifted, but overscoring isn't a significant issue on individual IQ tests. It isn't like a multiple choice test where a person can make lucky guesses.

I think you've read too much into my post - I wasn't talking about overscoring at all. I agree that overscoring isn't a significant issue.

What you are suggesting is not what I've read or heard anywhere else about this subject. Would you care to post a link?

I've just returned a few to the library, I'll hunt them down again and get the details to you. You can also find some good journal articles in gifted education which deal with it a lot more clearly than I seem to be doing.

Huh? How is being gifted a brain dyfunction? Dysfunction is impaired functioning as in something not working well.

Most experts classify giftedness as a brain dysfunction (the definition is something which is working abnormally - giftedness fits this perfectly because the gifted brain DOES work differently to a normal brain).

If you said that a lot of schools do pretty poor testing and make placements on the basis of not very accurate group testing or on the basis soley of acheivement I agree. If you said many schools have gifted programs that are really more about being academically advanced that gifted, I agree. I don't agree though that many children are given individual IQ tests, score high and aren't really gifted.

Again, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that children who get high scores aren't gifted - I'm saying that it can't be used as the only indicator. More needs to be done to give a diagnosis. A lot of the children scoring highly *will* be gifted, but a few won't. Not many will fall into that category, but there are enough that it's an issue (ie them being diagnosed as gifted when they're not).

[LadyMarmalade]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

It's possible to be a gifted musician and not be intellectually gifted. It's possible to be a gifted athlete and not be intellectually gifted. What makes gifted musicians and athletes similar to intellectually gifted folks is the intensity and drive that they so often exhibit from an early age. A mathematically gifted child will find a way to incorporate/use mathematical concepts as often as possible. A musically gifted child will drive teachers and tutors to distraction with their raw talent and refusal/inability to channel said talent in typical directions. They're driven in ways that most people don't understand and can't accept.

It's possible to be gifted and not score very highly on an IQ test, but it's not possible for someone who scores very highly on an IQ test not to be gifted.

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

For the record, while it is possible to get a falsely low score on an IQ test, they are designed so that you can't get a falsely high one. Any IQ test score in isolation should be regarded as a baseline, rather than an upper limit.

I totally agree with everything you said, but I want to add one more thing: while it's not possible for someone who scores very highly on an IQ test not to be gifted, it's possible for someone who scores higher than average not to be gifted. It's the lower end of the high scoring people who need further testing before being given the gifted label.