Anger over c/s - Page 2

[AugustineM]

Originally Posted by spyder

You guys are great! Thanks for the support. Is there any way to get other people, who haven't been there but really need to understand, to really GET IT? Such as spouses, MW's?

I think it's hard for other people to understand... in fact, it's almost impossible for anyone to understand that hasn't been in the same situation. My DH sort of understands, because he wanted a natural birth for our children too, but he still gets tired of hearing me talk about it.

As far as other people, like more distant or friends, I don't even bring it up anymore, because I've gotten so many of the responses like you mentioned... "well all that matters is a healthy baby" etc. I found that ICAN meetings and online were helpful, because so many women understand... really understand.

For me, for my 2 unwanted cesareans, it has helped me a lot to learn a lot about why they happened. Well, my first was for a footling breech, so that one was easier to understand, but this last one was for asynclictic presentation and a "wedged" baby. It has helped me a lot to learn about those things... but i'm an info person. Different things help different people.

I cried a lot at first, but now 2 months later I don't cry hardly at all about it. But it is still very raw, and I relive the birth over and over.

[pampered_mom]

Originally Posted by spyder

Yes, I've gotten that comment, "At least you have a healthy baby" I was so furious and disappointed to hear that from someone who, I thought, should have known better, that unfortunately I didn't really say anything!

Next time you should say something. I have lots of problems with that statement. My biggest issue is that it assumes there is only one person involved in this whole process and most often is used to negate and diminish any feelings you may have about what happened. Our goal should be a healthy baby AND a healthy mom b/c I truly believe that babies are healthiest in their first few years of life if their mom is healthy emotionally and mentally, too! So sorry that you've gotten that statement from people...

I hope/plan to take this experience and use it to make other women's births the experience they deserve and desire!

Yeah!! You go girl!

[forthebest]

to you mama, I'm so sorry you have had to endure this crap, I've been fuming since my teens at the way women are treated,during labour especially.I can relate to how you feel.I was real sad and angry having been dragged out of my hb with my 1st dd and I had a v delivery not c/sec,but it still affects us, I can't imagine what a c/sec woulda done to my head! ppd followed and I wrote many letters, none I posted, stating how mad I was at the general treatment I got. Thing is it all just spoils things and can go on for a while, but yeah you got every right to be angry.My 2nd and 3rd dc were born uc and it was like I had proved it to myself that I hadn't needed that hosp crap and indeed that the treatment had denied me any respect or real fullfilment at such a momentous event in my life. Yeah they are see-ing babes being born regularly but I don't think most of em even care about such a beautiful experience and just treat us like dirt. Like I said when I uc'ed my 2nd dd it was like a huge weight off my head and I was elated in so many ways but up until then I was v.unhappy about my 1st labour. No, nobody else seems to be bothered about our pain mama, it's like we are making a fuss or something! I hope you will be ok and you can fulfill your dreams in the future as I did. ITA with above, womens feelings should not be walked over,babaies deffo have happier moms if they are treated right.

[roseq]

Originally Posted by wombatclay

Not to hijack the thread, but...I started training to become a doula (DONA) after this experience. I want to offer support to mamas facing c/s and those working on a VBAC from a BTDT perspective. Just because your birth doesn't go as you hope/dream doesn't mean you're not "worthy" of support.

Good for you! I've recentely started thinking about becoming a Doula myself. I was a transfer HB to c/s myself and I would want any woman in my position to have as much support as possible. This is a big deal, it takes a lot of healing!

Spyder - I think it will take a long time for the anger to die down, but don't ever feel guilty for feeling that way. Like one of the other says, yes you have a healthy baby, but this is still a LOSS that you have to grieve. I just realized my son is going to be 1 this month and I have not gone one day without thinking about my experience. You are not alone.

[Lkg4dmcrc]

I was raging angry over a necessary cesarean for over 9 months. I could not get past the anger stage and move on with the other stages of grieving for a very long time and I couldn't figure out why I was stuck in anger. I started a journal and would write profusely and process the birth, but this just made me angrier. I would come to MDC or other boards and ICAN meetings hoping that I could get past it. I eventually decided that I needed to see someone who specializes in birth trauma and in two sessions I felt so much better and a lot less angry.

I was in deep denial about the fact that anger really is a front for shame. Shame is different from guilt - guilt says you did something wrong or bad, whereas shame is that you are something wrong or bad. To me, any interventions at birth were shameful. People who had interventions were wrong and bad. These ideas are completely irrational as there are always things that go wrong in childbirth that require interventions. Although some hard core natural birth advocates on MDC really doubt this, there are necessary cesarean births.

I found that I stayed angry a lot because there are so many here on MDC that would add insult to injury and shame me even more. There are so many here that love to judge others- and love to shame them for their incorrect choices and even necessary cesareans. These women are not kind and get some sort of thrill out of hurting other human beings. It really is too bad that everyone who says that are gentile and loving parents really aren't gentile and loving towards women who have experienced unwanted birth trauma - instead they seek to make them feel like they are bad people for things that are usually beyond their control.

Anyway, it helped me to read a lot about shame and anger. There is also a Buddhist book that is always helpful to read on anger - Working with Anger by Thubten Chodron. I find that it helps to read and re-read it when I am raging angry. I hope you can find a way to become less angry. It really is a destructive emotion.

[hajenkatt]

I have been actively trying to come to terms with my c/s as I am 36.5 weeks preggo and want a VBAC. With my medical history, there is a strong liklihood that I may end up with another c/s.

I have my days of feeling peaceful and days of feeling terrified of being put in the same situation of a c/s again. What helps me (not nec. anyone else) is that I CHOSE to have another baby, and I want this second baby as badly as my first. If having this baby means that I have to go through another surgery, then I will be okay with it in the end. If I do not have a successful VBAC, yes I will have anger issues. I will feel guilt and shame and all the other difficult emotions and it may take years to process. But eventually I know that I will be able to hold my little guy and know that he was worth it all. I am not saying it is easy or not traumatic, but it is WORTH IT. Marathon runners run until they puke. Mountain climbers push themselves to altitudes where they pass out. I can think of hundreds of examples of humans pushing themselves to the limit. Does the mountaineer lament the fact that they lost half their fingers to frostbite? Probably. But it is also a source of pride and a great story to tell. I fully intend one day to show my dd the scar on my belly and tell her I loved her so much that my first real parenting decision came at the moment where I had to give up my dream of the ideal unmedicated, etc. birth and have a 'belly birth' instead. That she was so loved and so wanted that my body was physically and permanently changed and scarred so that she could come into this world.

Yeah, that sounds idealistic and a bit fru-fru. But I am TIRED of the negative, I am TIRED of beating myself up. I want to see her birth as a glass half-full. It has taken a LONG time, and while it STILL pisses me off to hear 'well you had a healthy baby' I am strong enough now to counter with them and set them straight about the emotional issues as well.

I wish you luck on your journey of healing. Hugs.

[mackenziesmama]

I was very, VERY angry after my first cesarean for about 4 years, and I was angry about my second cesarean for a year. I didn't heal from them until I went to talk to my midwife a day before my second child turned 1. After talking to her, I felt at peace. Still angry, but not angry like I was before. Instead of the anger being focused on my cesareans, it was, and still is, focused on all the women who don't have voices. My anger is focused on the medical society, the insurance companies, the medical schools that teach birth as an illness, etc. Having a focus for my anger helps a lot. I no longer feel this pent up rage, I can approach and accept the anger in a more controlled way.

Another thing that really helped me was writing the birth story of my second cesarean. It's 11 typed pages! After writing it, I realized that a lot of my anger I kept experiencing over and over because I kept replaying her birth. Once I saw it all written out, I was able to stop replaying it and "move on".

I hope this helps mama. Hugs and peace to you.

[Ammaarah]

Originally Posted by spyder

You guys are great! Thanks for the support. Is there any way to get other people, who haven't been there but really need to understand, to really GET IT? Such as spouses, MW's?
Yes, I've gotten that comment, "At least you have a healthy baby" I was so furious and disappointed to hear that from someone who, I thought, should have known better, that unfortunately I didn't really say anything!
Wombatclay had some really good points about what the mom's remember, some of those comments just really stick. The feeling of failure is also something that is hard to shake.
I was also rather disappointed that I have always been the one to bring it up, no one thought to ask how I felt about the whole thing. I hope/plan to take this experience and use it to make other women's births the experience they deserve and desire!
Thank you all for your support.

I really understand this wanting people to GET IT! I would sit and nurse my baby and fume, composing nasty letter after nasty letter to the medpros who handled us with such insensitivity while we were in the hospital. I had inadequate anesthesia during my c-section and I was so surprised that NOBODY even mentioned it during my entire stay. Because it is beyond horrifying to feel surgery...yet when I mentioned it to the nurse in recovery, she smiled and gave me the healthy mom, healthy baby line.

I don't feel I'll ever truly get "over" it, but I am getting through it.

[hajenkatt]

Ammaarah--is it okay for me to PM you some questions about your anesthesia experience?

[sbm1001]

I don't think I even began to be angry & grieve until a good year after my c/s. I didn't know any better. I didn't know I should be angry over it or what was causing my depression. Once I figured out what was causing my depression I was able to grieve & get angry & all the steps involved in that process. I don't recommend waiting to deal with it, though. It's best to feel what you're feeling & get it out, not supress it. I'm sure that's ridiculously obvious to you but it wasn't to an inexperienced momma like myself at the time.

It's been nearly 4 years since my c/s & I think I'm starting to stop with all the anger & resentment over it & beginning to accept & appreciate my experience. Don't get me wrong, I don't appreciate the way I was treated & what lead to my c/s, but I do appreciate the knowledge I've gained since..... knowledge I don't think I would've gained had I not had this experience. I've grown so much since then & educated myself tremendously. I've stopped being a "sheep" & begun using the mind of my own I've always had but was taught not to use from a very early age (like most public schooled kids, but that's another story for another board, I guess).

I've since had a successful HBAC & am planning another one soon. I'm sorry you're going through this right now & you've had to join this group of ladies in need of healing. My thoughts are with you.

Shannon

[nurnur]

quote: "One "key phrase" I learned during training is that you should think about "what will the mama remember?" and that a doula's job is to make sure those memories are positive ones, even when events start moving in a less than positive direction."

This scares me. I do not believe that it serves a woman to hide the truth. Sure, a c-section or traumatic chaotic birth can be better with good support and a doula who is informing the mama each step of the way what is going on and that they are right there WITH her, but we cannot paint a rosy picture for the mama to remember when that is not TRUTH. Doulas cannot make sure her memories are positive ones, I think what they can do is inform the mama every step of the way and let her know she still has choice, then after a traumatic or "less than positive" birth be there to listen as she grieves.

[Ammaarah]

Originally Posted by hajenkatt

Ammaarah--is it okay for me to PM you some questions about your anesthesia experience?

Go right ahead!

[wombatclay]

Nurnur, you may have misunderstood the context of that quote from my doula training...it can be hard to convey everything without body language and tone of voice! Let me see if I can explain better...(and apologies for a slight thread departure...)

but we cannot paint a rosy picture for the mama to remember when that is not TRUTH

A "positive" memory is not necessarily a "rosy" one. For example, the memory of breathing or toning through a labor contraction can be a positive one if the woman remembers her strength in that moment and her amazing power in opening/growing through that contraction. But that same contraction could be a "negative" memory if she remembers only the physical pain that may have accompanied that contration instead of her strength in riding with it.

Does that make sense? A labor contraction isn't a "rosy" memory, but it can be positive or negative one depending on which portion the mama choses to focus on. The idea isn't to create a memory that isn't "true". The idea is to make sure that the mama knows how strong, brave, powerful, capable, amazing, wonderful, lovely and loved she is no matter what happens. She is no less strong, brave, powerful, capable, amazing, wonderful, lovely and loved if she has a c/s. A c/s mama needs to process her experience (not all c/s mamas find it a traumatic experience btw), grieve or not as she needs, and have the support of those around her to heal physically and emotionally.

Helping a mama find her memories of strength and power isn't "hiding the truth" or denying the trauma of a c/s. It's helping the mama find what has been there all along.

The "What will the mama remember" question actually came out of an assignment...find several women who have given birth in the various decades (the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, etc) and ask what they remember from their births. It's shocking how many remember the doctor yelling at them, or a nurse ignoring them, or the way they were embarassed by the "labor prep" even 50 years later. Yes, these "negative" memories are part of the truth of those birth experiences, but so are the memories of joy at their baby's cry, their suprise at how strong and capable they really were, the discovery of huge resources they never knew existed inside them.

And part of a doula's role is to help people in the birth environment realize that they are creating memories with this mama, and those memories are going to last a lifetime, and they should act with respect and kindness towards that mama no matter what. So that in 50 years the mama I stay with today will remember her amazing strength, her baby's first smile, the way the doctor respected her desire to nurse her little one right away... before she remembers the rude nurse or the fact that she didn't get to use the tub or the million and one horrible "what if I had/hadn't"s that plague every mama who's birth wasn't what they had hoped. Not instead of those memories, but with those memories.

I'm not sure that makes it clearer but I didn't want you to think that a doula's role is to "lie" to a mama or create some sort of "false memory"! It's not. For me, the role of a doula is to help a mama find and remember her strength. No matter what life throws at her.

[ollineeba]

I am still healing from the emotional scars of my c/s 4.5 years ago.
I've since had a VBAC, but I still mourn my c/s situation.

The first few months were especially rough and we had so many bf'ing difficulties that were compounded by the c/s. I had PPD and the first month or two were a haze There are a lot of things I don't remember (not to mention the whole afternoon and evening after his delivery)

Please know that you're not alone

[nurnur]

thanks for clarifying your take on the doula role

Wombatclay: Thanks for clarifying.

[nurnur]

c-sec healing a journey

First my apologies for detouring from the OP topic. How insensitive of me, as I am a 2 time c-sec mama and went thru a very long process of healing. The pain can still come up for me at times, especially when I see one of my childrens birth trauma come out in them. For myself, when the emotions/pain/feelings come up I allow myself to cry/rant....FEEL it. It usually is just one of many waves of feeling to arise, but the acknowlegement of that REAL pain on my part has been very good. Sending to you as you process. Anger is the first step in grieving. Do you have any good literature on grieving. Anyone else on here have any good sites on grief?

[spyder]

For those of you who have had VBAC's esp HBAC's, does it help to further the healing process. I thought I was done, esp right after the c sect, but find myself wanting to be pregnant again, wanting another baby (obviously after some more time passes). I've always felt confident in the birth process, did any of you find yourself very nervous attempting it after the c sect? The first comment I heard when I first mentioned the possibility was "You could die!", nice eh? I've heard many comments since the surgery from people who should know better, that will stay with me.

[cathicog]

Originally Posted by wombatclay

A care provider is there to help you have the best birth possible, and I really think some of the anger and pain of a c/s is feeling like you have "failed" in comparison to the natural birth you wanted and deserved.

But if the doula is there to help protect the mom from unnecessary intervention, (and I believe she is, else she wouldn't have gotten hired) doesn't that mean that the doula has not done her job, if the hospital staff is doing what they want to the mom, even if mom specifically says don't do it? The reason I ask is there have been a couple of births i have been to as a doula, where I have been called out of the room, and while I was gone, drugs have been given to the mom and other interventions she didn't want, didn't ask for, and specifically refused. Then I was let back in the room, and mom was conked out....so did I do my job as her doula? (the client was happy with my work, but she did not remember much of the actual birth). Does this make being a doula a joke in the medical community? (I wonder sometimes if we aren't being laughed at behind our backs. I was referred to as "the little doula" with one client) Or if, as doulas we will be ignored, then why bother with hospital births at all?(said rhetorically). I just wonder sometimes if we ought to lay it all out, and just tell the moms, especially VBACs, that if you want a vaginal birth, you better do it at home....

The attitude of the care provider could go a long way to helping mamas realize they didn't fail, even when things don't work out the way you hope. One "key phrase" I learned during training is that you should think about "what will the mama remember?" and that a doula's job is to make sure those memories are positive ones, even when events start moving in a less than positive direction.

But what the moms remember afterward isn't necessarily what they remember during the birth...or so it seems to me. I think most of the medical care providers are chamaleons, changing to suit the atmosphere at the time. But i have worked with some excellent docs, (and nurses) who I would love to see cloned, they were so amenable...there are just so few of them!
So back to my question- Have we failed the client, because the staff worked against us in our better judgement and the wishes of the client? And if so, how to prevent it....

[wombatclay]

So back to my question- Have we failed the client, because the staff worked against us in our better judgement and the wishes of the client? And if so, how to prevent it....

that sounds like a good thread for the birth attendant forum! And it's a question I see in the literature a lot ("should" doulas work in hospitals? what is the role of the doula at a hospital birth? the doula at an unplanned or planned c/s birth?)

Personally I felt my doula failed me...not because I had a c/s, but by her response to the news that I was having a c/s and her behavior after the surgery (see my original post in this thread). If someone had told me right then that I hadn't failed by having the c/s, or hadn't implied (by word or action) that "I should have done more" then it may have made a difference to my sense of self-loathing after the surgery.

I guess I feel strongly that a doula is there to support a mother during birth, no matter what happens...not all interventions can be avoided, or will be avoided, or should be avoided, and good or bad the mama has to deal with what happened. The doula's attitude during these events can help the mama come through with her dignity, pride, and a sense of self worth intact, or they can add to the hurt. I know what my doula's attitude did for me and hope I provide a totally different experience for my clients!

Healing emotionally and physically is so hard even in the best of situations...

[NoMariposa]

Well, I can tell you after the depression lifted, I was angry for a long time (years) and still am. I had my 2nd child via planned sch c/s at the advice of a gyn, who didn't know all of my hearts desires and he meant well. In hind sight, I needed the first c/s scar tissue and one heck of a horrible job repaired, so my 2nd c/s really holds no pain for me. It actually was a good experience in comparison to the first. I thought I was over it all while I was planning my vba2c as a hb. I was on cloud nine for months, but honestly the fact that I did do it just made me more angry at the 1st situation and lack of knowledgable care received during OB visits and at the hospital.
I still feel like I was cheated and my body has been cut open and sewed back together -- it bares the scars and it bares the physical pain that comes with each subsequent pregnancy pulling on those scars that should have never been there. I feel like I've been broken.
I started working with legislation in this state, I could be aggressive and angry and it was a suitable avenue for my anger (politics are a b-tch). I know I can not work with other women b/c I am very opinionated about c/s and what they do to women. But on the same hand maybe some day all of my experiences will be for a greater good to help women, when I'm ready to move on.
I think I'm still hanging on to my anger for strength or at least motivation to continue to be aware of the disservice to women the medical community is doing.
I'm planning my 2nd hb for my 4th child. So it's been almost 8 years since my 1st c/s and first child was born. I still harbor some anger, although less. It was at it's peak after my hb, while in bliss of hormonal serge as it wore off I really angry. I came here about it too.
If it really bothers you, you can seek counseling, I would suggest from a woman with midwifery experience. We have a former mw around her who does such therapy for women. I probably should go see her when I'm ready to let go of my own anger... Or you might try channeling your anger to the benefit of other women as I feel I have with the passing of new laws allowing the practice of hb mws in our state legally.
I will say though my own anger is not outwardly displayed. I'm not kicking in doors, knocking down tables, etc. I'm not hostile to family or friends. Mostly I feel it when I read post about women being "allowed a trial of labor" or such horrid language used to degrate. So, I try to avoid such post or talking about vbacing to other who are not yet fully embracing that pregnancy is natural and birthing is not to be managed. I will on occassion, but I must bite my tongue and usually I'm just ferrious when I'm done.