Answering "Excuses" - Page 3

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread that could turn unproductive judgement into lactivism.

I think that "isms" are obnoxious when they are thrown in the face of individuals who are not interested. No matter which "ism", people who aren't interested just get turned off by spontaneous "ism" activity. If a person was throwing away a recycable, I would not lecture but pick it up and recycle it. (and then wash my hands) If someone one was commuting to work the same way as me, I would offer to commute together to save energy and money. If a person was formula feeding because nursing was too hard (for whatever reason), I would smile and say that it was hard for me, too, at first but that I am happy that I was able to get through it to nurse my dd for 2.5 years. No judgement. Just a conversation starter to break the ice. If they wanted to know more, they can ask. If they did not want to know, me saying anything at all is just going to annoy them and possibly even turn them off of wanting to nurse the next baby. This is a very sensitive issue and it needs to be handled delicately if you want to persuade someone to nurse their next baby or keep nursing this one.

"isms" done in large groups to protest the activities we dislike are another story and they work for different reasons.

[nancyw]

Originally Posted by chibolita

I certainly wish I had someone to talk to when I had my daughter. My first born was premature and passed away in the NICU. The next year, my daughter was born 4 1/2 weeks preemie and of course, you think the nurses know best. So, she got formula in the hospital for the first week as I was told that I "needed to wait until my milk came in". I asked the nurse to show me how to use the pump a couple of days after my daughter was born and she took me in the room and we started talking about my son. She said, "oh, I don't know how people who lose 5 year olds do it." I was sickened that she would say that my son's life wasn't worth as much as a 5 year olds. Then, she pointed to the pump and gave me no instructions or anything. So, when my daughter came home, I pumped. I pumped and pumped thinking that it would be sufficient since my nipples were so large and she was so small. I had such a feeling of inadequacy having a premature baby and felt so guilty. Well, after two months I couldn't understand why my milk dried up. If I only knew about lactation consultants or LLL then. To top it off, my sister in law, who nursed both of her kids for one year, told me years later that she knew I was going to lose the milk, but didn't say anything. How nice. So, yes, it would have been really nice if a BF mom had approached me and encouraged me. So keep encouraging where you can. Some woman are like me, and if they could do it over, would do it another way. God bless you all and here's to healthy babies.

chibolita,
's to you, mama. this is so very sad; my heart goes out to you. and thank you for sharing your story, and for the "keep encouraging where you can" that I feel addresses this thread so nicely.


Annettemarie, what a wonderful thread. (and your intention was very clear, I thought, btw!) what a very loving thing--to be trying to approach it in this way--so as to respect a person, and share your knowledge and encouragement (to whatever degree the conversation allows) as well.
no 'ideas' here, per se, except that proceeding gently, listening more than speaking, and watching for 'defensiveness' (because if you come across that--then what youve said has 'shut them down' and they wont hear anything anyway)---these are the only thoughts I have, but of course, they are not the 'how to' you are hoping for!

Ill be : so I can hear more of what people have to say about acheiving that, and Ill keep thinking...

[BetsyNY]

I do want to make it clear that I am certainly not advocating cleverly undermining or manipulating someone. But I am looking more for, what do you say? I mean, obviously, if someone is talking to you, you're in a conversation. If someone says, "Oh, I tried to nurse, but my doctor said my milk was too rich" (and yes, I've heard that) I have several choices. I can
(a) smile and nod as if this is not the silliest thing I've ever heard, thus tacitly saying yes, your milk can be too rich
(b) drop my jaw and yell "WHAT?! That 's the stupidist thing I ever heard!!! which would NOT be good lactivism or being a good friend
(c) answer my friend gently and lovingly and sharing what I know

I think you could say, "really? wow, I've never heard that." I think with a statement like that you could plant a seed without coming off as argumentative or confrontational. If she's a friend, I might take it a little further, but if it's just an acquaintance, I'd leave it there.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by BetsyNY

I think you could say, "really? wow, I've never heard that." I think with a statement like that you could plant a seed without coming off as argumentative or confrontational. If she's a friend, I might take it a little further, but if it's just an acquaintance, I'd leave it there.

That would certainly be an approach, especially with a mother who had already weaned. At that point, there's no sense beating her over the head with her decision. On the other hand, I would hate to have someone going around further spreading false information about how breastfeeding works.

[bczmama]

I agree that I will not be participating in these boards in future. Quite frankly, I had come here to have a look around after my personal experiences with people I can only assume were lactivists. I wanted to get a better understanding of mentality that made some of these individuals so willing to overstep the bounds of generally accepted interactions.

What I do find interesting about looking around here, is that this is about the only thread that at least tangentially dealt with something other than delivering the "message" -- but something equally important, how the "message" is received.

Quite frankly, in the messages sent out that these threads describe I feel that there is a lot of preaching to the choir, and not a lot of consideration as to how they are perceived by others -- and how off-putting some of it can be.

For example, with the previous poster and her cousin, if the issue had been anything else, from an invitation to dinner to a suggestion of an excellent pediatrician, I believe that after hearing one or two excuses from her cousin why it wouldn't work, she would have gotten that her cousin just wasn't interested and let the whole thing drop. However, with regards to the bf she continued and continued to push, to a level that as described could only be damaging to the relationship. If she were my cousin, the answering machine would have been picking up most of the later calls.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by bczmama

For example, with the previous poster and her cousin, if the issue had been anything else, from an invitation to dinner to a suggestion of an excellent pediatrician, I believe that after hearing one or two excuses from her cousin why it wouldn't work, she would have gotten that her cousin just wasn't interested and let the whole thing drop. However, with regards to the bf she continued and continued to push, to a level that as described could only be damaging to the relationship. If she were my cousin, the answering machine would have been picking up most of the later calls.

I guess I don't find an invitation to dinner to be nearly as important as making sure a woman has all the information about breastfeeding, especially in a society where the formula and medical industries both seek to keep that information from her. A dinner invitation lasts one night; the effects of a decision to breastfeed or not last a lifetime.

Of course I am interested in how my "message" is recieved. I'd be stupid not to be. But I'm not so interested in not being "pushy" that I'm not going to talk about breastfeeding at all.

[HelloKitty]

Originally Posted by Selu

No personal experience, but I knew a mama whose son had really awful food intolerances and she could eat about five things that didn't hurt him. She was incredible, it was a TOTAL overhaul in her own diet.

Wow that's amazing! Good for her!!!

Cam (my 3rd) was sensitive to milk but only milk - other dairy he was fine with so it wasn't a difficult adjustment for me at all. It must be tough to have to deal with a total diet change in addition to having to care for a babe.

[nausicaamom]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

I do want to make it clear that I am certainly not advocating cleverly undermining or manipulating someone. But I am looking more for, what do you say? I mean, obviously, if someone is talking to you, you're in a conversation. If someone says, "Oh, I tried to nurse, but my doctor said my milk was too rich" (and yes, I've heard that) I have several choices. I can
(a) smile and nod as if this is not the silliest thing I've ever heard, thus tacitly saying yes, your milk can be too rich
(b) drop my jaw and yell "WHAT?! That 's the stupidist thing I ever heard!!! which would NOT be good lactivism or being a good friend
(c) answer my friend gently and lovingly and sharing what I know

This thread is about option c, at least that was my intent. It's about being true to ourselves and being a true friend at the same time. It's absolutely not about making anyone feel stupid, manipulated, guilty, or negative. That is precisely the sort of thing I did not want to happen here.

Longtime lurker - first time poster.

I guess the crux of the problem is exactly how to do C. I stopped trying to exclusively breastfeed my son due to a multitude of reasons at three months and the continued to comfort nurse him for another month until he went on a strike that I just couldn't wait out. I did seek some help early on, but I just wasn't able to put it into practice because of a woeful lack of physical support and the stress was severely impacting my ability to be a mother (history of major depression).

I was *very* defensive in those early months after I weaned. I knew what to do but was unable to implement it given my circumstances and consequently felt a great deal of guilt and grief over it. I used any number of "excuses" to explain why our breastfeeding relationship ended and on more than one occassion pulled out the laundry list - long sleepy nurser, large breasts w/inverted nipples, could only nurse in football hold, nipple shield, pumping, supplements, etc. as if to prove that I had done all that I could. If someone responded to my laundry list with a bunch of suggestions of what I could have done differently in those early months, it would have sent me into a downward spiral of guilt and second guessing.

Now that I have come through my grief and am proud of the fact that my son got four months of breastmilk, I am faced with the problem of how to respond to others when they confess to having problems. There were some pieces of advice that I got that just infuriated me - my most hated was, "it gets so much easier after X weeks." Everytime one of those milestones came and it didn't get any easier I just wanted to cry, so that is one that I don't plan on using much. I do have an overwhelming urge to spout warnings about what led me astray on my breastfeeding journey and am constantly having to think twice before I speak for fear of coming across too over-zealous, thinking about how I would have reacted and did react when I received similar advice when I was struggling.

One of the things I have been concentrating on is debunking the myth about La Leche League. Because I was struggling so much, I projected my own feelings of failure and guilt onto them and consequently removed what may have been a great source of help and support, I was so afraid that I was going to be told I was a bad mother. I've also been able to relate my own story with out having to justify it, but with the caveats that every nursing relationship is different and that some bad advice and treatments (didn't start nursing with the shield until 7 days post-partum, that burns me the most) really impacted us.

It's a very difficult road to tread - advice that may give one mother enough to keep going may send another deeper into the guilt/failure downward spiral. Moreso than anything else is the realization that nuclear families and society in general is not conducive to breastfeeding. Yes, nursing on demand and pumping every two hours is a good way to help increase supply. Telling this to a mother who is already completely overwhelmed by her baby, family and responsibilities may not be. I agree with many others who have said that shaming and judging mothers has no part in lactivism, not when there are so many barriers to a successful breastfeeding relationship, and I am very happy to see a thread like this trying to change things.

[annettemarie]

*hugs* nausicaamom, thank you so much for sharing your story (and for understanding my intentions here and not assuming they were evil, ) I think it definitely helps us to hear the stories of many different mothers and their stories. And I think it behooves us all to remember that until we walk someone else's path, in their skin, with their experiences, we have no idea what other people are really going through. We can't simply take our experiences and project them onto other people. That isn't Lactivism either.

[scoobers]

Here's what saved my BF relationship:

My husband and I were both determined to BF so I had lots of support from him. I thought we had educated ourselves pretty well. We both took a class, talked to other BF mothers, read info on the web. The area where I live it's more the norm to BF than not.

I had a VERY traumatic birthing experience. My son had difficulty latching and BF was simpy excrutiating for me...literally a toe-curling, god-awful painful experience, worse than labor. I had "assistance" from the LC at the hospital, however we were still having problems when we were discharged.

It didn't take long for me to start dreading the hourly experience of having my son clamp down on my nipple but I kept at it. We tried all sorts of differents holds and trying to relatch, etc. The second or third night after we had been discharged (it's kind of a blur for me) my son stayed up shreiking non-stop ALL NIGHT LONG. My husband, mother, and I took turns walking around with him. We called the emergency line and they were anything but helpful. The next morning we were waiting outside the door when my Ped's office opened.

The LOW MOMENT of my life came when my pediatrician told me my son was starving. STARVING! My son wasn't getting any milk!!! We had NO IDEA. We weren't uninformed or ignorant, just inexperienced. We thought we were doing all the right things. There was NO followup from the hospital or LC even though she knew we were having a hard time. Her advice when we left was to just keep trying, it'll get better. I'm so mad typing this right now I'm literally shaking.

You know what saved my BF relationship? Our Ped sent me to a different LC who told me to STOP trying to nurse my son. She told me I needed to rest and just only pump for the weekend. She gave me some sugar water to add to my milk to help my son get by. She gave me pumping advice and ideas for how to stimulate my production. She gave us a ton of Haberman bottles to help him learn to latch. She gave us a specific plan of action. We were literally bawling in her office, both of us. I don't think I've ever been so grateful to anybody for anything in my life. If I had had to face trying to BF any more at that point I just couldn't have done it. Just her giving me permission to stop trying to nurse him for a few days and pump gave me hope that it was salvageable and the ability to keep trying.

If I had gotten the judgemental, you're not trying hard enough, keep trying business I see on a lot of these threads I would have just given up and gone out and bought some formula and beaten myself up silently for not being a "good enough" mother. God, the guilt was already bad enough.

Thankfully after a couple of months or so of pumping and working with the LC on my son's latch we were able to BF and I'm so grateful because I treasure that experience with him. He weaned himself at about 14 months and yes, I might have been able to force the issue and make him keep nursing longer but I chose not to. I'm sure a lot of people would judge me for that but I couldn't care less frankly.

It makes me sad when I see people calling other mother's reasons for not BF "excuses". I'm sure in some cases it is and I'm sure there are lazy, bad mothers. But, until you walk a mile or a hundred miles in someone's shoes, try not to judge them. The only friend I have who didn't BF her kids had a great REASON. She nearly died delivering them, they were preemie twins, then she had repeated surgeries after the delivery because of complications. She's told me that she feels terribly guilty and frequently feels compelled to explain why she didn't BF to people. That is truly sad, IMO. It's really nobody else's business unless she asks for input.

I really like what one of the teachers at my Mother's group said: We feed our children love.

Now, I'm not saying this thread is like that and I'm glad to see that some of you are looking for positive ways to be supportive but I can tell you I would probably not come to MDC for BF advice purely because so many people are really judgemental and ready to see any problem as just an excuse for being a lazy and bad mother.

I really liked what a PP said about leading by quiet example.

[prettypixels]

This is so important...

I really think a thread like this one is sooooo important especially because of things like this...

Because I was struggling so much, I projected my own feelings of failure and guilt onto them and consequently removed what may have been a great source of help and support, I was so afraid that I was going to be told I was a bad mother.

Now I have not yet breastfed... my baby is still baking. But I have seen some things here on the breastfeeding and lactivism boards that make me understand why some people get so defensive about lactivists. (I have also seen amazing support and love and guidance... please don't misunderstand me.) I think it's great that this discussion is going because this IS a big issue for the community and it does have an impact on the perception of breastfeeding in society and as to whether or not women ever attempt to breastfeed at all. And that is it in a nutshell. Anytime a woman feels like she MUST do X or she will be deemed a BAD MOTHER by society, I think it makes her automatically go on the defensive. And when people are on the defensive it is very difficult for them to really hear anything you have to say. I know when I am feeling defensive, I have a hard time *hearing* people.

Personally I watched my girlfriend try her best and struggle to breastfeed her baby; a bad LC combined with a preemie baby, large inverted nipples, exhaustion post C-section, wound up with her not managing more than a few ounces overall ever. But she TRIED and it would make me angry on her behalf if someone tried to guilt her about it... she was going through so much at that time to start with and STILL she really did try. (This was ten years ago. I have enough info now to have known that her LC was an idiot and tried to get her other help. I didn't have it then.)

Also I am almost positive that most ff'ing women do not know that the first ingredient in formula is CORN SYRUP SOLIDS. You'd think people would read the ingredients, but they don't. We never did, and I was there feeding her baby with her just about every day for the first two years of his life. It wasn't until I found boards like this that I actually LOOKED IT UP! I know my SIL has three little girls who she says she breastfed for a while and also ff'd... she didn't know either when I asked her. So education is so important and there HAS to be a way to do it without causing offense to people.

It's also been my experience that lots of people have a hard time taking advice from others about anything. Anything at all. I know I have friends like that and it drives me CRAZY. I feel so helpless when I want to feel helpFUL.

So basically I think this is a great discussion and I am : FWIW I did not see what the upset poster was so upset about at all... the original post did not indicate in any way that the lady deciding not to breastfeed had been badgered, IMO.

[kawa kamuri]

It's sad to me when a woman feels she has to make excuses for her choices whether is is to feed from breast or can. It's sad there are venomous people on both sides.

[muckemom]

as a FF who hopes to BF the next baby I can tell you one thing....

IF someone says that it is easier to FF... they - are - NUTS!!!!

It is soooo much harder, and messier and stinkier... and a hell of a lot more expensive... I kid you not, I spend over $200 a month on formula...

Gag - have you ever had to wash a bottle of formula thats been shoved in between the seat cushions of a couch for a week??? :Puke It is really, really gnarly...

That said, we all know that there are legitimate reasons to FF, but... ah.... using the reasoning that its "easier" thats nutso!!!

[LittlePeanut]

How about this one... "I just couldn't get the hang of it" or "Just like mum, my milk never came in" (after 3 weeks of nursing)

LP

[frontierpsych]

Also I am almost positive that most ff'ing women do not know that the first ingredient in formula is CORN SYRUP SOLIDS. You'd think people would read the ingredients, but they don't.

You know what bothers me the most about that is FF mothers whose reason for not breastfeeding is "With formula, we know exactly what he's getting." Ummm... okay, what? I'm going to ask that next time I hear that excuse, because I honestly want to know what their answer will be!

[scoobers]

LittlePeanut
As a matter of fact, I "just couldn't get the hang of it AND my milk DIDN'T come in. My baby was starving despite my BEST efforts to BF. If it hadn't been for the help of one particular LC (cause I had a crappy one before) I would have been a FF. Not because I wanted to, or because I was a lazy, bad mother but because I didn't want my baby to STARVE.

Go back and read my post if you're interested. I really think it's completely unproductive to criticize other mothers for their reasons for why they FF. If you want to make a difference, why not lobby for more or better access to LC's or better legislation for nursing mothers?

[scoobers]

Originally Posted by frontierpsych

You know what bothers me the most about that is FF mothers whose reason for not breastfeeding is "With formula, we know exactly what he's getting." Ummm... okay, what? I'm going to ask that next time I hear that excuse, because I honestly want to know what their answer will be!

Okay, I can answer that. I don't think they are speaking of ingredients but amount of milk. I had tremendous anxiety about whether my son was getting enough BM once I started nursing vs. feeding him pumped milk from the bottle because I couldn't SEE how much he was getting. Yes, I know the way you figure that out is to weigh your baby but how many people have access to scales that are accurate to the ounce? I didn't so I had to go to my Ped. or LC to get him weighed.

Just curious, have you BF?

[muckemom]

Originally Posted by frontierpsych

Also I am almost positive that most ff'ing women do not know that the first ingredient in formula is CORN SYRUP SOLIDS. You'd think people would read the ingredients, but they don't.

You know what bothers me the most about that is FF mothers whose reason for not breastfeeding is "With formula, we know exactly what he's getting." Ummm... okay, what? I'm going to ask that next time I hear that excuse, because I honestly want to know what their answer will be!

I know... I researched it thoroughly before it was what I chose to feed DS...


INGREDIENTS (Powder)
(U)-D Nonfat milk, lactose, high oleic safflower oil, soy oil, coconut oil, whey protein concentrate; Less than 2% of: C. cohnii oil,* M. alpina oil,** potassium citrate, calcium carbonate, ascorbic acid, potassium chloride, choline bitartrate, magnesium chloride, choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, ascorbyl palmitate, taurine, m-inositol, d-alpha-tocopheryl acetate, L-carnitine, mixed tocopherols, sodium chloride, zinc sulfate, niacinamide, calcium pantothenate, cupric sulfate, vitamin A palmitate, thiamine chloride hydrochloride, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, beta-carotene, folic acid, manganese sulfate, phylloquinone, biotin, sodium selenate, vitamin D3, cyanocobalamin and nucleotides (adenosine 5'-monophosphate, cytidine 5'-monophosphate, disodium guanosine 5'-monophosphate, disodium uridine 5'-monophosphate).

* A source of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)
** A source of arachidonic acid (ARA)


Granted, its not BM... but I am glad as hell that there was another option for DS.

[Serrendipity]

Scoobers

Having gone through latch difficulties with my first, and sitting there on my bed litterally sobbing at some god-awful hour of the morning trying to get my five day old baby to nurse on a breast rock-hard with milk, I've had a taste of "not getting the hang of it" and I remember very well the mix of frustration and anxiety I felt.

We went to see an LC the very next morning, and she got us all straightened out. My nipples healed, and I just nursed that great big healthy 2.5 year old girl earlier tonight. Then I went out to the living room and nursed her little 15 mo sister, lol.

To you and all other moms out there: BIG HUGE HUGS!!!



Serendipity

[flooter]

Hi! I am pretty new around here, but I saw this thread and just had to comment. When my dd was about 4 months old, we were having a little trouble BFing. We went to our local farmer's market one Saturday, and a woman selling homemade bread saw dd and said, 'oh what a beautiful baby! How does she nurse? Is it going well?' I was slightly taken aback by a total stranger asking how well my baby nurses (as other posters have said they feel) but I was more touched that instead of asking 'if' I was nursing, this woman just assumed! It was fantastic! And it made me so determined to continue through that rough spot. We did, and now several months later, I love seeing that woman at the market and discussing my BFing issues w/ her. She was a lactivist and didn't even know it

As for answering 'excuses', I often get those while I'm NIP--for example, I was nursing dd in a restaraunt and our waitress said, " oh I couldn't nurse my dc, I didn't have enough milk", and I said, 'Well, I'm sorry that that happened, maybe if you have more children you could attend a LLL meeting and we can help you!"

I find that rather than arguing about whether or not she actually didn't have enough milk (which we all know is very unlikely) I try to say 'next time' and offer help in the way of LLL:-)