Video of crowning (graphic be warned) - Page 2

[pamamidwife]

Originally Posted by midstreammama

Just wanted to share my favorite video of a waterbirth of all time! Its amazing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErGwUAgiz5M

that's Tatiana! She's a midwife in (former) Russia.

That's a better video.

gosh, in so many of those waterbirths, it's easy to see why some mws don't like waterbirths. I wouldn't like it, either, if I had to stand bent over up to my armpits in water for that long! geez.

[2+twins]

I pushed on my back with my first baby - a homebirth. I had back labor and it was actually the most comfortable position for me (I tried everything else I "thought" I should try but nothing else worked as well or felt as comfortable). Go figure - sometimes that's just best.

Also, when my 2nd baby was born her head came out and just sat there for awhile (not exactly sure how long - it was a UC & dh & I guesstimated 2 minutes). It was a waterbirth too, which made it seem odd to have her head under the water like that for so long. The reason for the gap btwn her head being born & her body being born was simply b/c I let my body push her out - I didn't force it. And that's just the way it went with that particular birth (unlike my next one in which there was barely a pause btwn the head & the body).

For those who got the black screen only - did you try it in IE? Netscape didn't work for me but IE did. Boy, watching that made me so glad my births were so fast the last 3 times. It's intense when it's fast but I wouldn't want to do it that slow again either!

[onlyboys]

My midwife barely got wet at my birth...

Some of those videos were scary. I can't believe how calm and smiley Tatiana is! That's the most intense part for me!

[mamachandi]

I wanted to be on my back for my third(go figure) and my midwife was late getting to me and she had her partner there and when she finally came and saw me relaxed and laying on my back she told me to get on all fours, I said it did not feel comfortable, but she said if i wanted a fast labor (which I did and discussed it with her before hand) I should be in the positon that felt most uncomfortable. the baby came 45 minutes later!

awesome video by the way-thanks for sharing!

[Full Heart]

I think its a beautiful birth.

I birthed all my babies in that position. Its just whats natural for me. I have pushed on my knees before but much prefer reclining.

I love Tatianas birth. I've been telling dh about it for days .

[Kidzaplenty]

I love watching births. I never could figure out why someone would video tape a birth and then censor out the best parts. I mean, why watch a birth if all you are going to see is a before and after with all that fuzzy screen in the middle.

These two births were wonderful. I can't wait until it's my turn again.

[ericswifey27]

They are all beautiful!

Thanks for sharing.

[cottonwood]

I can't get it to load. :

Tatiana's birth, though, was really cool. Thanks for posting that. Was it unassisted?

Mamachandi wrote: "I said it did not feel comfortable, but she said if i wanted a fast labor (which I did and discussed it with her before hand) I should be in the positon that felt most uncomfortable."

I don't understand this. Why would a midwife be encouraging you to be uncomfortable? Seems like that's the opposite of following your body's cues?

[Seie]

all the messing with the mom's tender tissues, the panic around the next contraction after the head (yes, sometimes it takes 'that long', though it's not long at all, really - the baby is still getting O2 from the cord, remember!) and the suctioning kills me.

It is not my impression that there is any panic at this point. The midwife seems calm to me and is telling the mother that they have to wait for the next contraction before she should start pushing again.

I also do not understand what the suctioning is about but we do not know what has happened earlier in the birth. Maybe there was meconium in the amniotic fluid and they want to make sure baby doesnt breathe it in?
Since she seems to have an internal monitor as well as an external one I assume that there has been some reason for this (in Denmark it is not my experience that they will use the internal monitor unless they think there is a good reason) and that reason would most likely be meconium or dropping heartrate.

My first birth was in hospital and even though the circumstances were a bit different from this birth then I was in the same position (on my back but half upright) and it was not uncomfortable. My labor had been around 50 hours and I was so exhausted that I didnt feel like being on all fours. Also in this position they held a mirror for me and I could see everything - something I would not have been able to do on all fours. I was not in a condition where squatting could even be considered.
Even though i was educated about birth at the time (though not as I am now) I took comfort in getting advice from the midwife during pushing and crowning.

I must admit I feel there is a bit of birth snobbery around - nothing big - just tiny remarks here and there "belittleing" (is that a word) the experience of a hospital birthing unexperienced mom in comparison to a solo waterbirth (by a midwife even). Tiny remarks that honor one birth to be "better" - a "quality" birth whereas the other mother is thought to be some kind of "victim" who undergoes a hospital delivery. It is (by some) automatically assumed that one birthexperience is better - but the truth is that noone here can really know can they?
It may be that one looks more graceful than the other - but honestly who cares about looking graceful while giving birth. I sure as **** dont - and I dont necessarily think it makes for a better birthexperience either..

I personally have both a marathon hospitalbirth ending in epidural, pitocin and an "on the back" delivery - as well as an almost completely solo homebirth where the MW arrived as my daughter was crowning, I was kneeling and delivered the head on my own - the MW never even touched my perineum till after birth. All she did was catch the baby and hand her directly to me.

Was my one birth "better" than the other? I know for sure that I had problems bonding with my daughter because her birth had been so fast - whereas my first birth had been slower and I had found it easier to adjust to being a new mom from being pregnant. I do not think my one experience was "better" than the other. Just different. Even if one was (seen from the outside) a "perfect" homebirth and the other a hospital birth with the loads of intervention.

[mamachandi]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I can't get it to load. :

Tatiana's birth, though, was really cool. Thanks for posting that. Was it unassisted?

Mamachandi wrote: "I said it did not feel comfortable, but she said if i wanted a fast labor (which I did and discussed it with her before hand) I should be in the positon that felt most uncomfortable."

I don't understand this. Why would a midwife be encouraging you to be uncomfortable? Seems like that's the opposite of following your body's cues?

I don't know but it worked

[pamamidwife]

sorry about your feelings re: the birth snobbery. It's my goal to stop the ritualized abuse and mistreatment - that is not evidence-based even - to mothers and babies during birth. I think much of what is being done is rarely based on science and more based on ritual and lack of reasoning. Suctioning babies - with or without meconium - is not evidence-based. It did seem like the mw/doc was a bit anxious for the next contraction with her hands all over the belly to see if the contraction had started. Of course we don't know exactly what happened. I just feel strongly about letting women know that their birth does not have to be like that. It's one thing to choose to birth in that position (because I've had women who found it the best position, like with a malpresentation), but it's another to be in that position because it's expected.

If that is birth snobbery, then someone should just change my title to "birth snob". I'm ok with that under the above definition.

I feel very strongly about speaking out about things that do not have to be done in birth. I wouldn't want women to think that this was the way birth was supposed to be.

It would be different if this was YOUR birth story, or another poster's. It's not. I would never criticize another woman's birth here after she posted it. However, seeing how this is anonymous, I felt like I could say something.

[kalisis]

Thank you for sharing this video. It is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was dying to see when I pg with DS, but couldn't find. Now, I'll be showing it to him in anticipation of this new baby.

Again, thank you.

[pamamidwife]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I don't understand this. Why would a midwife be encouraging you to be uncomfortable? Seems like that's the opposite of following your body's cues?

it's the theory that if you're uncomfortable, then things must be progressing.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by pamamidwife

it's the theory that if you're uncomfortable, then things must be progressing.

Well, and that's not necessarily untrue. Often women become more uncomfortable -- or more agitated -- as labor progresses. What I don't understand is getting out of that the notion that discomfort creates the progress -- correlation isn't causation. I mean, do people really believe this? So if the most uncomfortable position for me is being on my back, that's where I need to be?

[pageta]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

Well, and that's not necessarily untrue. Often women become more uncomfortable -- or more agitated -- as labor progresses. What I don't understand is getting out of that the notion that discomfort creates the progress -- correlation isn't causation. I mean, do people really believe this? So if the most uncomfortable position for me is being on my back, that's where I need to be?

I think that's a very good question. With ds I was comfortable lying on my side, but I wonder if I would have avoided the epidural and pitocin had I remained upright even though it hurt a bit more. But watching that video and the position she is in makes me hurt just thinking about it. Really, though, seeing anyone touch their toes with their legs straight makes me hurt because I can't do it (very tight hamstrings), but that doesn't mean it's hurting them. Chances are, I think, with the birth that woman is having, she didn't necessarily choose the position she is in - not a sure thing, just a probability.

[Seie]

Originally Posted by pamamidwife

sorry about your feelings re: the birth snobbery. It's my goal to stop the ritualized abuse and mistreatment - that is not evidence-based even - to mothers and babies during birth. I think much of what is being done is rarely based on science and more based on ritual and lack of reasoning. Suctioning babies - with or without meconium - is not evidence-based. It did seem like the mw/doc was a bit anxious for the next contraction with her hands all over the belly to see if the contraction had started. Of course we don't know exactly what happened. I just feel strongly about letting women know that their birth does not have to be like that. It's one thing to choose to birth in that position (because I've had women who found it the best position, like with a malpresentation), but it's another to be in that position because it's expected.

If that is birth snobbery, then someone should just change my title to "birth snob". I'm ok with that under the above definition.

I feel very strongly about speaking out about things that do not have to be done in birth. I wouldn't want women to think that this was the way birth was supposed to be.

It would be different if this was YOUR birth story, or another poster's. It's not. I would never criticize another woman's birth here after she posted it. However, seeing how this is anonymous, I felt like I could say something.

I think we actually agree. Guess I just feel a little defensive on this mothers behalf since I was the one posting the link to her very personal experience.

When talking about giving birthing women better births then there are two different aspects I think. One thing is the actual stuff that they do - how they "manage" birth/the "medical" side of it so to speak. - Another thing is how they treat the birthing mom. When reading birthstories I often read of women who are being treated with contempt, disrespect and arrogance - this almost ensures the woman a terrible traumatic experience.
Another thing is friendly wellmeaning docs and midwifes - who are just not well educated or up to date but who at least treat the birthing woman with respect and let her have a say about her birth (even if she is poorly informed). That woman has a good chance of having a good birthexperience - even if it is not as safe as it could be or if she doesnt recieve the evidence based care that you are talking about.
Ideally a birthing woman should recieve both though - I agree with that.

Guess my point is that a woman can feel her birth is wonderful even if it is not up to the standards that she should ideally be able to expect. Just as a woman going through a natural birth where she is given all the best support and circumstances for a safe birth does not necessarily have a good experience. Maybe the lvl of pain is greater than she expected or she panics despite the best of circumstances?

Birth is both a physical event - but also very much a personal, psychological experience. And I dont think it is fair to make judgements or assumptions about the latter based on what we know about the first. Do I make any sense?
I also dont think it is fair to victimise a woman if she doesnt at all feel like a victim but rather like she is in good hands. IMO it is not up to others to decide if someone is a victim or not..

[pamamidwife]

I think that being sweet to someone while you are cutting their vagina open is no more respectful just because of the attitude towards the mother. The point is, for instance using episiotomy, the act itself is unnecessary and not beneficial to the motherbaby unit.

This is MY point.

That we need to stop thinking of "well, this is better than she would have received elsewhere" or "this is better than a cesarean" or "at least she's being treated well".

Evidence-based medicine is what we should strive for. Many midwives and doctors are still in the same routine of doing things because it's what they've been taught is "better", never mind what the research shows. This list includes things that are vitally disruptive to the mother - and if we look at doing away with them, our babies - and our mothers - would have a more gentle, beautiful experience. Isn't that the point of all this?

Why would I want my baby to have a tube shoved down its nose and throat as it's making his/her emergence into the world just BECAUSE?

It's not evidence-based. Meconium or no, it's just not.

Why would I want my baby's oxygen supply cut immediately after birth - even before the baby is in my arms - just because of some silly reasoning?

Why would I want my baby's head and neck forcefully pulled and pushed by someone as it is being born?

Why would I want my baby to be handled by other people for the first hour of life?

Why would I want my placenta rushed and risk bleeding and therefore needing medication?

Why would I want to be hurried in labor - and risk my child's well-being because of someone else's idea that this is how it "should" be?


I hope this makes sense. I'm not on a voyage of home vs hospital. I'm on a voyage of GENTLE BIRTH that is motherbaby centered. Why is this threatening? Why does that have to be victimizing women?

[cottonwood]

Oh, gracious. Well, that was hard to watch. The quality of the video wasn't good enough (or my connection wasn't good enough) for me to see the details, but at the very least I could see that the midwife's hands were constantly on the woman's tissues and baby's head. I feel sick that women are still led to believe that this is necessary.

For someone to accuse me of snobbery for acknowledging that -- well, there's got to be an assumption there about my motivations. I assure you that I'm not sitting here thinking how much better I am than this woman because I know something she doesn't, or that I'm somehow better than her. I find that extremely offensive. Why would anyone assume that?

The truth is that these things need to be spoken out against or they're not going to change. Every time we see something wrong and say "oh, that's great, perfect," for fear of hurting someone's feelings or being "disrespectful", we perpetuate the myth that these things are necessary and okay to do to women.

I think we can safely assume that the reaming the midwife gives the mother is not a good experience. Whether or not the mother feels it was overall a good experience is impossible to know -- we certainly can't know that based on the tone of voices after the birth and whether or not the mother is smiling. In almost all cases, no matter how awful the birth experience, there's going to be a positive response to the fact that a baby has been born and is healthy.

It's moot anyway, as far as whether or not we should comment on the midwife's actions. I don't have to make any judgement about the mother whatsoever in order to judge the practices employed and the things done to her.

[rajahkat]

Thanks for sharing the link, inca =) I understand how you would take an attack on the video or the way the birth was managed as personal since you posted it. But please don't. I would hate for you to feel alienated over this.

Not to join in any brewing debate, really that is not my intention, but I had to turn it off. I understand how a first time mom really wants to see the mechanics of the process. I know when I was expecting my first I wanted to see it ALL And I was truly horrified at what I perceived to be possibly overwhelming trauma to my clitoris

But now, after three births, unassisted, it really HURTS to watch a video like that! I mentally put myself in that position......and I just can't do it. I would be screaming if someone had their hands all over me like that........anything that looks like stretching or "helping" on the part of the midwife makes me cross my legs and cringe. And I'm constantly asking myself WHY?!? What bizarre joke has been played on human kind that the majority of women believe THAT is a NORMAL birth?!?

It isn't a case of birth snobbery exactly, I don't think I'm BETTER for giving birth the way I do, but I think it would better serve ALL WOMEN regardless of how they plan to give birth to see more unmeddled-with birth. Videos like this just perpetuate the myth that "help" or even a "watchful eye" is NECCESSARY.

If you want someone there, GREAT. More power to you, but don't be hoodwinked into believing that the birth won't progress smoothly and safely without someone mercilessly "helping" the baby be born.

Kat

[MamaTaraX]

I finally got to watch it! My 3-yr-old loved it (thogh he couldn't figure out why they were suctioning the baby) Beautiful! (now I have to go watch it again because he's begging and crying for it!)
(ETA: I didn't like the mw yanking on the baby's head or cutting the cord right away..but I love birth and thought it was beuatiful that she was making lots of wonderful noises and the camera caught the crowning and birth itself very nicely)!

Namaste, Tara