DS is spiralling out of control

[Summertime Mommy]

DS just turned 6, and his personality has almost completely changed. He is mean to his sisters, he does not listen to anything I say, and has violent outbursts over any minor setback. I really don't know what to do about it. My whole family says "Oh, he needs a good spanking." But I know that is not the proper path. He has always had temper tantrums, but now they have escalated. I have read tons of discipline books and tryed every method I know of but nothing is working and I have resorted to time outs for lack of a better alternative. Today was an especially trying day, but it made me realize that something needs to be done. Here is what happened:
Koeby came how from school and things were okay until he asked his sister to play with him and she refused (not uncommon) he then broke down and started crying hysterically, so I offered to play with him instead. He picked out a board game and we started playing it, but when my game piece passed his, he got mad, started crying and threw all the game pieces on the ground. I told him that I was not going to play with him if he continued to act that way, and of course he did, so I stopped playing the game, which made him freak out and run to his room,. I went to try and talk to him, but he did not want to talk to me so I said well come talk to me when you want to. He finally decided to come out of his room and when he did he saw his sister eating some banana bread and asked if he could have some, I told him I would like for him to talk to me first, and he got angry again and threw the books he had in his hands at me. I told him he needed to go back to his room and then I went in there and we talked for a while and he was better. Fast forward to after dinner and I was letting them slide around the kitchen floor with wet hand towels, (to have fun get the floor clean) and he decided to start swinging the wet towel over his head. I told him 3 times to stop and he never did, finally I told him that he couldn't play in the kitchen anymore, but before I knew it, he was right back there anyway and swinging the towel around, which in turn, broke a martini glass sitting on the kitchen counter. This was just a few minutes ago. I sent him to his room again, because I was so angry I couldn't even think straight. I just don't know what to do. Writing this out, I see that I am sending him to his room way too much, but natural consequenses haven't been working and his behavior seems to get progressively worse. He is even being mean to the cat and his baby sister, not hurting them, but harassing them unmercilously. I am at a loss. Please help!!!

[georgia]

Do y'all have a history of food allergies in the family? Is there any particular food he craves? Do you notice his behavior changing after eating certain foods? When he's hungry? Tired? Many children are sleep-deprived, w/o parents even realizing sleep is an issue, esp. when home routine has changed (back to school?) Has anything changed lately at home? Do you think he's needing something that he's not able to articulate...I find that's usually very crucial to figure out needs that are going unmet...

Have you talked with his teacher at all about what might be happening at school that's affecting him? Perhaps he's feeling scared/helpless/anxious, and he's only able to feel safe expressing his emotions at home?

Have you had time apart from the incidents to talk w/him about what's going on? Would he welcome a "game plan" coming from you? (Like, the next time you're feeling _____ would you be willing to ______ instead of _____....)

I've got to run, and I doubt this has been all that helpful...I just didn't want to read and not post my support and pose a few questions (or ten)

[Magella]

:
I would look into why he's doing these things rather than focusing on finding a consequence/phrase/method to make him stop. It's easier to solve a problem when you have some understanding regarding why it's happening-address the reason it's happening.

Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired? Overtired? Needs a snack after school? Needs quiet time after school? Needs time to reconnect and/or decompress after school? Any stress of any kind (remembering that what's stressful to him might not seem stressful to you)? Could he be having anxiety about something or just a vague anxiety? How recent is the change, how drastic is it, how rapidly did it come on? (This might give you clues as to what's happening.) How is his health in general? Does he seem physically as healthy as usual? Does he complain of any physical annoyances/pains/etc.? How are his skills of self-expression and problem solving, could he be having some difficulty with these skills right now that leads to outbursts and aggression? How is school going? How are his friendships? Any family stress?

I think it might be helpful (it is for me) to take a step back and try to look at the situation from another perspective, with fresh eyes so to speak. Try to see what's beneath/behind the behavior. That alone might give you some ideas as to how to approach it.

[ambdkf]

It sounds like he is feeling really out of sorts. When that happens here I just focus on connecting. In the game scenario, I would just validate how upset he is and try to connect with him, hold him, hear him, etc. It sounds like he is bucking against things he feels are out of his control. He may be feeling you are one more obstacle. To avoid that I would look at ways that we can partner together to meet our needs. It really helps to not take the behaviors personally. I try to see the behaviors as messages that are expressing an underlying need. Find and address that need and the behavior becomes unnecessary. Just punishing for the behavior never addresses the need. He is needing you. He is struggling.

I know it can be hard and it sounds like you have a lot on your plate (I looked at your "check me out"). When we work together to meet the needs even challenging times can be more peaceful.

[annarosa]

sounds to me like he is really frustrated and angry and needs some help from you to deal with this ..........
try to find ways of connecting with him after his angry outbursts (or during) and this might give some clues as to what is really going on with him
for instance - give him the bananna bread and then talk to him while the two of you eat some of it together
or if swinging the wet towel isn't working in the kitchen then why not take a wet towel yourself and go and swing it with him around outside in the yard
or if he is mad at your pieces getting ahead of his in the game then turn this into a game and stomp around the living room with him ...........

[Delacroix]

Originally Posted by annarosa

give him the bananna bread and then talk to him

ITA with this suggestion.

I don't know what your personal philosophy is regarding childraising. Mine includes the belief that sometimes children are out of control and they KNOW they are out of control. Knowing it doesn't change it of course, anymore than knowing that overeating is making one fat is enough to change the behavior...KWIM?

Personally, I believe that to be out of control, but powerless to stop it, is very frightening to a child. I believe that this creates anxiety, which in turn escalates the behavior.

When this particular dynamic is happening, I do believe that it is my responsibility as a parent to step in and control the child. I do not think the child enjoys this, and I expect the child to rebel and to potentially push even further...testing to see if I really am in control. When assured that the responsibility for control is mine and not theirs, I believe that this is a tremendous relief to the child. A burden of responsibility that the child cannot manage has been removed from their shoulders, and placed on mine. Limits have been established which the child (on a subconscious level) knows will keep her safe from her own inability to control her behavior.

Having said all of that, the question then becomes, what strategy or strategies transfer that control to the parent?

I would examine the privileges that the child cherishes to determine which privilege or activity are most likely to motivate the child to work with me in order to regain them. I would remove privileges or activities until I found the right one or right combinations to shift the dynamic so that the child would work towards something instead of merely shifting away from the undesired behavior. I think it's very important not to state these consequences in anger, but to instead remain as calm and loving as possible, conveying in your unspoken communications that you believe in your child and her ability to shift the dynamic, and that you are on her side, rooting for her. You present the consequences firmly, without negotiation, but do not convey in your spoken or unspoken communications any sort of adversarial position to your child. This requires that you do not act in the heat of the moment.

When the child begins to demonstrate the ability to control himself in the problem area, I would not just reinstate the lost privileges, I would include extra activities (one on one or with the family, with friends, whatever is desirable) to reinforce the positive aspects of the behavioral change.

I believe that, over time, the child would learn that controlling her behavior is desirable and beneficial. (Of course, this is the level at which the child will process the situation; it will possibly be decades before the subconscious aspects of these dynamics can be understood by the child.) She will learn how to gain control of situations when it has been lost, and will experience subconscious relief when the control is lost, even though consciously she will be angry.)

It should be understood that this is always a process. The child will periodically lose control. This should not be viewed as a failure on your part as a parent, and definitely not as a failure on the part of the child. It's just human nature, doing it's thing.

Due to the enormous flexibility of human intelligence, you will have to continually make adjustments to your strategy, because intelligence has a way of seeking the means by which to trump any particular strategy. The adjustments are of course, dependent on the myriad factors of any particular situation and family dynamic.

[taterbug1999]

Just wanted to give you and say that while I don't have a huge amount of advice, I must say that I think alot of it is the age. My dd sounds JUST like you ds alot of the time. One minute she is yelling at me and slamming her door, the next she is poking out her head and telling me her favorite show is on!! But just when I begin to fear that she is some freak of nature and alone in her "nuttiness" I talk to the moms of some of her good friends. And they too are experiencing the same stuff. They are all around 6 or 7. Something inherent to the age must go on at this time...wish I was a psych. major and could figure out what. I know my own dd sometimes just needs space and prefers time alone in her room to cool off, sometimes she desperately needs me to just hug her and talk. Knowing what to offer when is a gamble at best! I am just doing my best to hang in there. But I really wanted to tell you that as frustrating as it is, he seems to be going through something very normal. Cause I seem to know so many at this age doing the same things!! Sometimes it has helped me to just know that other moms are dealing with the same stuff at my dd age and then I feel less alone and more able to cope. Good luck momma!!

[Summertime Mommy]

Thanks for all the advice. This post was written last night when I was at my witts end, and things have actually improved a lot today. I think some of it is age and some of it is lack of sleep. But I think another part of it is that sometimes I don't give firm enough boundaries and I think that gives him the idea that he doesn't have to take what I say seriously. Last night, when dh came home from work, I talked to him about the days events and his escalated behavior problems and then we both sat down and had a talk with ds. I think that it helped alot, especially because ds was afraid that dh would be very angry with him for his actions and it put ds at ease to see that no noe was angry with him, just frustrated about his actions. We decided that we are going to put him to bed earlier for a while, and he was okay with that as well. The tantrums, I am still nto sure what to do about. But they are very normal for him, he has been having them since he was about 4, but they have gotten worse this year. Whe he gets that way, he doesn't want to be around anyone and screams if you get near him before he cools down, hence the reason I send him to his room to cool off, and then go talk to him or wait for him to come out and talk to me when he has calmed down. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he is gifted, and his emotional maturity has not yet caught up to his intellectual maturity. So many, many things trigger outbursts, even something as simple as changing from one activity to another can trigger an outburst, even if I give him ample warning. I'm also not completely sure that he has any control over the outbursts, last night when he threw the books at me, for example, when I talked to him about it later, he was very apologetic and kept telling me that he didn't know what he was doing. This kind of made me feel like he was out of control at the time, almost like he couldn't stop himself. I know that I personally, have gotten that angery before with dh (we used to have a very very unstable relationship, he was on meth, and drinking alot) and that is one of the many reasons why I refuse to hit my kids, because I fear what would happen if I got really angry and thought that hitting was okay. He doesn't seem to be stressed about anything, he loves his new teacher and class at school and our home environment is much more stable than it has been in years. So, I just really don't know. sorrythis is so jumpy, hope it wasn't too hard to read.

[Magella]

Originally Posted by Summertime Mommy

The tantrums, I am still nto sure what to do about. But they are very normal for him, he has been having them since he was about 4, but they have gotten worse this year. Whe he gets that way, he doesn't want to be around anyone and screams if you get near him before he cools down, hence the reason I send him to his room to cool off, and then go talk to him or wait for him to come out and talk to me when he has calmed down.

his emotional maturity has not yet caught up to his intellectual maturity

So many, many things trigger outbursts, even something as simple as changing from one activity to another can trigger an outburst, even if I give him ample warning. I'm also not completely sure that he has any control over the outbursts, last night when he threw the books at me, for example, when I talked to him about it later, he was very apologetic and kept telling me that he didn't know what he was doing. This kind of made me feel like he was out of control at the time, almost like he couldn't stop himself.

What you've written here reminds me of my daughter. I really liked the book "The Explosive Child" because it really goes into the possible reasons why some kids have tantrums that seem to come out of nowhere, over seemingly minor things, even when they have ample warning/explanations. Each reason has to do with development of the skills a person needs in order to handle frustration and problem solve, and are very concrete "brain skills"-I think this fits with your sense of his emotional development not being caught up with his intellectual development. (One example is the skill of being able to "shift set", or move from one activity to another without difficulty. Another would be emotional regulation/modulation. Another is the ability to set aside emotions just enough to think about the problem-separation of affect. It goes on...) The authors also give a very concrete recommendation for how to handle these problems so that children are supported and assisted in learning the skills they need to handle frustration better. (The newest version is the best, most clear version IMO.) If you've got the time, it's worth a read. I found it very helpful.

[captain crunchy]

The poster's have given some decent advice imo but I have to say that I really, really, strongly and adamantly disagree with the advice given by Delacoix and I don't consider it to be gentle. Please know I am not singling out this poster as a person, just the advice given.

I think it sounds like your son is going through a very frustrating time. I think part of it genuinely is his age and developmental stage. It sounds like he has a lot of anger going on in his little spirit and I really don't think punishing him is the answer. Yes, being mean to his siblings and doing things that upset you is not acceptable to you and I hear your frustration -- but you are at an impass right now and there is a choice to be made.

Ask yourself this: Will I choose to help my son through this by helping him to feel better, or will I force him through this by making him feel worse?

I truly believe you want to do the former.

I would examine the privileges that the child cherishes to determine which privilege or activity are most likely to motivate the child to work with me in order to regain them.

I truly believe this will only produce a more angry, resentful child. I think that beneath your child's anger and acting out is a need that he is begging you to meet. I can't say what that is for your child, but maybe when everyone is calm and in good spirits you could have a casual conversation with him about it. It is time to ask questions, not to be more punitive. Let him know that you want to help him, without being accusatory, or angry, or punitive. Maybe you could say something like "I noticed you got really upset earlier when ____ happened, what can I do to help?"

Unlike Delacroix, I feel like when children are behaving "out of control", they don't look to us to control them, they look to us to control ourselves.

I feel that your son is wanting reasurrance that you will love him no matter what he does. That doesn't mean you accept all of his behaviors or that you are okay with him continuing to act in a hurtful way, it simply means that he needs to know that despite not being okay with his actions, you still love and accept him.

I think measures like brainstorming ways to further control and isolate him and remove things he "cherishes" is a recipe for disaster and for pent up anger and resentment that is likely to explode later on.

I think it's very important not to state these consequences in anger, but to instead remain as calm and loving as possible, conveying in your unspoken communications that you believe in your child and her ability to shift the dynamic, and that you are on her side, rooting for her. You present the consequences firmly, without negotiation, but do not convey in your spoken or unspoken communications any sort of adversarial position to your child.

I believe children are smart and capable. I believe one cannot expect their child to believe they are "rooting for them" when they are systematically making their lives less enjoyable. I don't expect for one minute that a child will feel as if they are not in an adversarial relationship with someone who is unwilling to negotiate with them, who is taking away things they enjoy in order to change behavior, and who is not giving them what they are desperately acting out for --- the security that despite their current behavior, you are ON THEIR SIDE and LOVE THEM unconditionally.

I hear your frustration mama, it seems like you are at a loss of what to do to help your child feel better... I think below yours and your son's anger is a feeling of helplessness. I urge you to try to let some of the little things go. Swinging a wet towel in the air... trust me he won't be doing that when he is 16.... I know it is not desirable but like another poster said, maybe make a game of things like that..... in the future, let him have the piece of banana bread, it is an opportunity to talk to him connect with him, find out what is going on in his little mind and spirit.

Isn't that what you are really seeking? I think when you can determine together a way to help him express his upsetment in a healthy way, the behavior changes will follow.

Please ask yourself again: Will I choose to help my son through this by helping him to feel better, or will I force him through this by making him feel worse?

You know the answer mama. Hugs to you and your son. So many young boys (and girls) are struggling with big feelings in little bodies and this sounds like one of those little boys.

Take care of yourself.

[Summertime Mommy]

Swinging a wet towel in the air... trust me he won't be doing that when he is 16.... I know it is not desirable but like another poster said, maybe make a game of things like that..... in the future, let him have the piece of banana bread, it is an opportunity to talk to him connect with him, find out what is going on in his little mind and spirit.

Yes, in retrospect, I should have given him the bread, but the towel thing, imo, was a safety issue he was following his sister around swinging the towel and also swinging it in an area where he could knock over glasses, and other potentially harmful stuff. I probably should have told him that he could go and do it elsewhere, but in the heat of the moment, it is often hard for me to think of these things.

sledg, I am going to go see if I can find that book. I think it might be helpful.

[Yooper]

I also disagree that punishment is in order for a child that is having trouble controlling themselves. Out of control means just that. No amount of punishment is going to help. Being out of control is very scary for some people. Even children. Compassion is the key until the underlying need can be found and met (if possible).

[MissRubyandKen]

Originally Posted by Summertime Mommy
DS just turned 6, and his personality has almost completely changed. He is mean to his sisters, he does not listen to anything I say, and has violent outbursts over any minor setback.

How long has this been happening? It sounds like a recent development? Can you think of any major changes or upsets that have happened? Is there some source of tension between him and his sisters that didn't previously exist? I agree with the mommas advising to try to find what the underlying reasons and needs may be.

Originally Posted by Summertime Mommy
He picked out a board game and we started playing it, but when my game piece passed his, he got mad, started crying and threw all the game pieces on the ground. I told him that I was not going to play with him if he continued to act that way, and of course he did, so I stopped playing the game, which made him freak out and run to his room,.
Koeby came how from school and things were okay until he asked his sister to play with him and she refused (not uncommon) he then broke down and started crying hysterically, so I offered to play with him instead.

Is this a new development in their relationship? Has his sister always commonly refused to play with him or is she just recently not wanting to play with him? It sure sounds like the little guy was quite upset about her not wanting to play. It was very nice of you to offer to play with him. Do you think he felt validated and understood about his upset over his sister? From your post it sounds like it may have been one of those chain of events things, where one thing after another contributed to him losing it. I'm sure that like the rest of us he wasn't proud of his behavior when he lost it. Try to keep that in mind, I know it isn't always easy when we ourselves become frustrated. The last thing this kid needs is someone else who is human and makes mistakes too coming along and acting superior and doling out punishments. Taking away prized possessions and precious 'privileges' is not going to build your relationship in a positive way nor is it going to result in him improving his behavior for the right reasons. He is with you on this journey to LEARN from you. Punishment teaches nothing positive about life, human nature, and socially accepted behavior. It teaches do as I say or else.

Originally Posted by Summertime Mommy
He picked out a board game and we started playing it, but when my game piece passed his, he got mad, started crying and threw all the game pieces on the ground. I told him that I was not going to play with him if he continued to act that way, and of course he did, so I stopped playing the game, which made him freak out and run to his room,.

Wow, that sounds frustrating! While I completely understand you feeling as though you didn't want to play with him if he continued to act that way, I would have done my best to not say that to him in the moment. It isn't always easy but I try to ask myself at tense times like this if what I'm going to say or do is going to escalate or de-escalate the conflict. When I am capable of doing this I am usually more helpful to calming my child down. I might have taken a deep breath and put my hand on his shoulder and asked him what was going on with him, if he needed to talk about something, etc. Do you think he was truly that upset about the game and your move in and of itself? It is possible, but it also possible there was more to it than that.

Originally Posted by Summertime MommyFast forward to after dinner and I was letting them slide around the kitchen floor with wet hand towels, (to have fun get the floor clean) and he decided to start swinging the wet towel over his head. I told him 3 times to stop and he never did, finally I told him that he couldn't play in the kitchen anymore, but before I knew it, he was right back there anyway and swinging the towel around, which in turn, broke a martini glass sitting on the kitchen counter. This was just a few minutes ago. I sent him to his room again, because I was so angry I couldn't even think straight.

Hey the wet towel on the floor thing sounds like fun, I'm gonna ask the kids if they want to try that. I'm curious when you say you told him three times to stop, how do you think that came across? As a demand or a request? When I am demanding of my son I get nowhere fast. I'm the same way though. Demands push my buttons. I prefer requests. I find with my ds a request and an explanation of why I am requesting helps him to choose to stop.

We all have those times when we get really angry. When this happens to me after I calm down I talk to my children about what was going on with me, apologize if I took it out on them in any way, and sometimes recount how I would have liked the situation to go and listen to their feelings and thoughts too if they wish to talk about it. In this example I might have apologized for sending him to his room, and explained that really I was having very angry feelings and was afraid if I had stayed close to him I may have lost it and said or did something hurtful I wouldn't mean. That I wished I would have been able to articulate better to him that I was worried that someone may get hurt or something fragile broken and requested that he stop. If I hadn't already picked up the glass I might ask him to assist me in picking it up, then show him how to do so carefully and dispose of it properly. I believe children can learn from our not so stellar moments too, and even feel more connected knowing we make mistakes and own up to them. And if you show him you can be gentle with yourslef when you make mistakes and also make amends with anyone who might have been negatively affected he will likely learn to do this too. FWIW I don't think your son sounds out of control from your op. He sounds like a normal, sensitive 6 yr old.

Originally Posted by Summertime Mommy
He is even being mean to the cat and his baby sister, not hurting them, but harassing them unmercilously.

If you want to elaborate on this maybe some of the wise mommas here can help brainstorm some possible solutions. What exactly is he doing to the cat and his sister? Do you think this is attention seeking behavior?

ETA-Summertime Mommy, I went back and bolded a particular portion of my post because I wanted to let you know that it wasn't directed at you, I know you made no mention of punishing and removing privileges in your op. It was more me stating my feelings against those things in response to a pp. Because this is a public forum I wanted to put out an alternative opinion on punishment. Sorry I didn't do so seperately originally, I hope I did not offend you in any way!

[bright]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I feel like when children are behaving "out of control", they don't look to us to control them, they look to us to control ourselves.

Wow, lightbulb moment. That is one of those phrases that I think will stick with me.

[MissRubyandKen]

Originally Posted by Delacroix
I believe that, over time, the child would learn that controlling her behavior is desirable and beneficial. (Of course, this is the level at which the child will process the situation; it will possibly be decades before the subconscious aspects of these dynamics can be understood by the child.) She will learn how to gain control of situations when it has been lost, and will experience subconscious relief when the control is lost, even though consciously she will be angry.)

Setting my child up to be easily controlled? I don't think so. I would rather model and discuss self control. Who will be the one controlling your adult child momma? You want a pattern of experiencing subconscious relief when control is lost to form, and conscious anger? This makes no sense to me. How would you know what is in someone else's subconciousness anyway, sounds pretty presumptuous to me. There really are better ways than meting out punishment to help your child learn and flourish socially. Treating them as you would like to be treated, even in your darkest hour, for starters.

[Delacroix]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

Setting my child up to be easily controlled? I don't think so. I would rather model and discuss self control. Who will be the one controlling your adult child momma? You want a pattern of experiencing subconscious relief when control is lost to form, and conscious anger? This makes no sense to me. How would you know what is in someone else's subconciousness anyway, sounds pretty presumptuous to me. There really are better ways than meting out punishment to help your child learn and flourish socially. Treating them as you would like to be treated, even in your darkest hour, for starters.

Check the title of this thread; DS is spiralling out of control.

[MissRubyandKen]

Originally Posted by Delacroix
Check the title of this thread; DS is spiralling out of control.

I think my other post may have came across much more personally than I intended. Its tone would have been set more as intended if the former post had been written using *I* statements. Truly the advocacy of punishment as beneficial to a child bothers me, and it is that advocacy which I would like to speak counter to.

[WuWei]

I have been struggling emotionally with this thread as some of the pp suggestions (calculated removal of that which is cherished by a child) were imposed on me as a child. And the sufficating helplessness (the opposite of feeling self-control) that I felt as a child just caused me to fight harder and distance me against the controller. And our relationship is still damaged by their desire to have power over me and others.

I will just note that self-control is learned through others modelling self-control, imo. When parents wield "imposing control", that is what children learns also. Working with someone to meet their needs, rather than having power over them is my goal. Even when they are 2, 5, or 40. It is a hard cycle to break though.

I agree with the suggestions of Captain Crunchy and MissRuby of treating little people in the way that we would like to be treated. I remember what it felt like to be emotionally invalidated by my parents. I was told "You don't need that. Quit feeling that. And here is why I know best, I am the parent. You are a child."

This disregard was so painful for me as a child. I wish my parents had asked *me* what I needed, rather than telling me they knew best.


Pat

[Delacroix]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

Originally Posted by Delacroix
Check the title of this thread; DS is spiralling out of control.

I think my other post may have came across much more personally than I intended. Its tone would have been set more as intended if the former post had been written using *I* statements. Truly the advocacy of punishment as beneficial to a child bothers me, and it is that advocacy which I would like to speak counter to.

Thank you. I very much appreciate these comments.

I realize that there are many here who will not agree with my perspective, and that's okay. I have no goal of persuasion, just putting my thoughts out there. Your rejection of those opinions is entirely your right; I do appreciate though, distinguishing from the opinions and the person. Thank you again.

I do believe in the discipline aspect of GENTLE DISCIPLINE. I'm not entirely sure what discipline means in the context of CL; it seems that the concept of discipline runs counter to the philosophy of CL. That's fine of course, I'm not judging that...I'm just expressing some confusion. This is the gentle discipline board, and yet it seems like any mention of discipline is upsetting to some. I hope you can appreciate that this might be a little confusing.

I would like to address the subject of feelings. For the record, the transient nature of feelings is such that, while I respect them and honor them, I do not let feelings alone determine my course of action; not my own feelings and not the feelings of others. I have felt, at times, like leaving my partner. A couple of times in the distant past, I REALLY felt like leaving my partner. If I had, I truly believe that I would have felt better in the short term. I didn't, and I have no doubt that I am a happier and healthier person for sticking around and working things out.

I felt like quitting school, because it was just so hard to manage family and school. I have no doubt that my life would have been much easier, and I would have felt SO MUCH BETTER if I had quit. But I didn't, and today, well...it's hard to articulate my pride and pleasure that I stuck it out.

Regarding the feelings of others; speaking personally, it is very, VERY difficult for me to tolerate the anxiety that stems from making anyone upset or angry for any reason. I don't like it. Telling my mother, or my partner (or any other important person in my life) that I was unable to accomodate their desires...this has always been very unpleasant for me. But I've learned that the only way to take care of myself is by learning to say no, and tolerating my own feelings at the displeasure of others.

I'm glad I did, for now I'm in business for myself, and I can tell you that adults have anger issues with boundaries and this skill is something that has been very useful to me in my business. I'm talking about collection of payment, fees assessed for late payment, letting go an employee when every effort has been made to work it out, but failed...and so many other types of situations that arise in that realm of my life.

It is ESPECIALLY unpleasant for me to experience the anger or upset of one my children by drawing boundaries and limits. It is so unpleasant for me to experience the anger of one of my children when it comes to consequences, but I've learned to disregard those temporary feelings and focus on the long term instead. I truly feel that, for myself, to do otherwise would be a sort of abdication of my responsibilities as a parent in order to avoid MY OWN unpleasant feelings.

Please understand me, I do not mean to say that feelings should always be disregarded. I'm a highly intuitive person. It would be hard to articulate how important feelings are to me, and the role that I give them in my life is equal to the role of my cognitive functioning. This means that sometimes, when head and heart are in opposition, I listen to my head. At other times, I listen to my heart. Sometimes my heart is more in touch with the core of a situation, but at other times it's in the way of clear sightedness.

That's just my perspective on life. It works for me. I definitely have no intention of forcing it on others. It is very important to me that nothing in my communications has conveyed any sense of righteousness or superiority, and I hope that I have not failed to communicate effectively in this regard.

[MissRubyandKen]

Originally Posted by Delacroix
I do believe in the discipline aspect of GENTLE DISCIPLINE. I'm not entirely sure what discipline means in the context of CL; it seems that the concept of discipline runs counter to the philosophy of CL. That's fine of course, I'm not judging that...I'm just expressing some confusion. This is the gentle discipline board, and yet it seems like any mention of discipline is upsetting to some. I hope you can appreciate that this might be a little confusing.

I don't believe being anti-punishment is solely a CL thing. It seems a lot of moms here on the gd forum are willing to suggest, hear, and implement advice on alternatives to punishment. Honestly none of the books I have read from the gd forum sticky have advocated for punishments either. I guess there are moms here who believe that gd includes punishment, I honestly wasn't aware of that.