Fatty liver and bile duct stones? **UPDATE with U/S results and ??'s**

[mykdsmomy]

Hey mamas....I hope someone can shed some light on this for me. I had my gallbladder removed a year ago. Ever since then, I've still had pain in my upper right side (almost identical to the pre gallbladder pain). (my gallbladder was very diseased and full of stones...the surgeon said it probably stopped working a long time ago).

Anyway....I went in for an U/S last week to find out why I'm still having pain and my dr. said I have fatty infiltration on my liver. I asked her (my gp..not the surgeon) if it's likely then that my pain is caused by unseen stones in my liver or bile duct that are continuing to grow? She said it was likely but now I need to see a GI specialist to do more diagnostic testing.

What I'd like to know is 1. what could I do naturally to dislodge or shrink any stones that may be stuck in one of the ducts and 2. What can I do to get my liver in tip top shape again?
Has this happened to anyone.....help

[mamaverdi]

I wonder why GI. Did she say?

Fatty infiltration of the liver can happen for several reason....

obesity.
diabetes.
steroids.
tuberculosis.
alcoholism.
inborn errors of fatty acid metabolism.

Google, non-alcoholic fatty liver.
Google, long chain fatty acid oxidation disorder.

I will see if I can find some links.

Also, I don't think it's possible to get stones in your liver. I could be wrong. But in my reading about NAFLD, I have found mention only of liver damage and fiborous tissue....not liver stones.

Did she run a liver panel on you? Ammonia levels? Complete metabolic panel?

If you are not diabetic, do you have hypoglycemia? Do you have hyperglycemia when you are sick? Have you ever been treated for hyperammonemia?

We think it's possible that my boys have this metabolic disorder.

mv

[mamaverdi]

Okay, here you go....

Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/non...isease/DS00577
http://www.liverfoundation.org/db/articles/1027

Fatty acid oxidation disorders:
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic1284.htm

There is LCAD, VLCAD, MCAD, SCAD....

Look all of these up.

There is also this link: http://www.fodsupport.org
http://www.fodsupport.org/mcad.htm
http://www.fodsupport.org/mcad_fam.htm

[mykdsmomy]

MV~ Thanks so much for the links....I'm gonna go read them and then post again

Just real quick, Im overweight (currently doing weight watchers) and I'm pre-diabetic (although I want them to run the glucose test again because I have a lot of the symptoms of diabetes)
Also, the reason the dr. wants to send me to a GI dr. is to find out why I'm still having pain in my upper right quadrant after my gallbladder has already been taken out.....she didnt seem to concerned about the fatty liver (then again, i dont have too much confidence in her diagnostic abilities...she's been dead wrong before).....

[lauriem33]

Here is probably much more info than you ever wanted about cleaning out your liver, lol

http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/default.asp

If you had gallstones, then you also had/have stones in your liver as well. I had my gallbladder removed almost three years ago and every once in a while I still have attacks that are exactly the same as they were when I did have a GB. It's because your liver produces stones as well (can't very well remove that one though). For me, I just have to be careful about what I eat.

The GI dr. will probably do an ERCP or endoscope to check for stones in the ducts. They most likely won't be there though unless you are having pain at the time they do the scope. That's what happened to me, I had an attack, went to my gp and my liver function levels were off the charts. By the time my ERCP was scheduled and done though of course the stones had passed through and all was "clean". <sigh>

[mykdsmomy]

Laurie, thanks for the link.....I've wanted to do a liver cleanse but I was worried about getting more stones stuck in one of the ducts and winding up at the ER. :

I really dont want an ERCP....I'm still recovering mentally from my surgery....

Were you diagnosed with a fatty liver? I'm starting to wonder if some of my pain is coming from my liver and not the bile ducts...

[Ruthla]

I was also diagnosed with fatty liver and gallbladder "sludge." I did the liver cleanse twice, and I had the tests re-done but I haven't gotten the results back yet.

[mykdsmomy]

Well I have the U/S report in hand and was hoping someone could help me with a few phrases....

LIVER: The liver measures 18 cm in length. There is a mild diffuse increase in echogenicity of the liver suggesting fatty infiltration.

Then at the end of the whole report it says "Hyperechoic liver suggesting fatty infiltration".


When I googled these impressions, all I could see was non alcoholic liver disease...or something to the like. I'm supposed to see a GI specialist but is there a better specialist I could go to? someone who maybe specializes in liver, diabetes? I'm not happy with my current dr. and have had to do so major research on my own.....she didnt even see the "fatty liver" on the report until we were talking for a few minutes.....:
Anyway....any advice/opinions are appreciated here

[GatorNNP]

GI doctors are the liver specialists. They are the people you want to be talking to, but maybe at an advanced center or teaching hospital if you think it is a metabolism problem. Some of those are pretty uncommon/ uncommonly diagnosed since some are only more recently known etc. They know which tests to send off to rule out metabolism problems and the like to see if it is diet etc.

[Ruthla]

I also have questions about fatty liver.

I've had elevated liver enzymes for a while now, first diagnosed when my rheumatologist did routine bloodwork before prescribing me pain meds.

The bloodwork has been repeated a few times, and I've had liver/galbladder ultrasounds done twice. The first time showed fatty infiltrations in the liver and gallbladder sludge. I did a couple of liver/gb flushes before the second u/s. The second u/s showed the fatty liver, but no gallbladder sludge. My liver enzyme levels are still elevated.

What can I do to heal my liver?

[AngelaB]

How did you ladies find out you had liver and/or gallbladder problems? What symptoms did you have that made you decide to go to a doc?
~Angela~

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by AngelaB

How did you ladies find out you had liver and/or gallbladder problems? What symptoms did you have that made you decide to go to a doc?
~Angela~

Well I started getting these indigestion/heartburn type pains in the upper right quadrant of my abdomen....the pain would start like right between my breasts and radiate to the right side under my right rib then to my back under my right shoulder and arm. (my dr. kept diagnosing me with heartburn)
So last year (4th of july weekend 2005), I wound up waking up in the middle of the night with a really bad attack and I just knew it was my gallbladder.....so long story short, I went to the dr., she sent me for an U/S, they saw my GB was inflamed and full of stones and sent me straight to a surgeon and three days later, they took it out.
The problem is, ever since then, i've had similiar pains (not as intense but it's almost chronic), so last week, I had an u/s and it showed a fatty liver....so now i'm waiting to see a G/I specialist to look into the problem further.....
hth

[mamaverdi]

Ruth, you need to look into fatty acid oxidation disorders. I'm 88% certain this is what my boys and mother have. My mother was dx'ed with fibro too. You have fasting intolerance and fatty liver infiltration. The healing for your liver will take place when you start treating the metabolic issues. Go see a geneticist that works with metabolic disorders.

Same for the OP: the GI doc is not the person to see for metabolic disorders, but this can vary from place to place.

Fatty liver can make you hyperglycemic when you should be hypoglycemic.

Do either of you have a history of hypoglycemia?

Seriously Ruthla, you should not fast before finding out if you have this.

What happens is, your body cannot oxidize fat, so it uses first glucose and then muscle. Burning of muscle greats high levels of ammonia in the body.

Did I post this link before: www.fodsupport.org ?

[mamaverdi]

I believe the genetic protocol is a free fatty acid serum (blood) test as well as liver, ammonia, and acylcarnitine profile. Muscle or skin biopsy can confirm the diagnosis. Read the emedicine links. And Fodsupport links.

mv

[mykdsmomy]

MV~ I get super cranky, tired, and weak when I dont eat for even a couple hours.....I thought I maybe had low blood sugar? I'll re read those links.....you really think it could be a metabolic disorder?

The funny thing is, I've been diagnosed with some sort of autoimmune disorder but they dont know what it is.....they're not sure if it's fibro or cfs or lupus.....hmmm...

[mamaverdi]

Yes, I do think so. The thing is: fatty acid oxidation disorders are basically benign as long as you keep eating. You may need a 10% glucose IV if you can't eat. If you have fatty infiltration into your liver, then your glucose will appear normal or even high when it is actually low.

Again, my mother has some mystery fibro/cfs....and I believe it is actually a metabolic disorder, after looking at her labs and those of my boys, plus looking at symptomology.

The thing is, metabolic disorders are a very very new field. The screening is relatively easy....for fatty acid disorders. On that FOD website it even says that Charles Roe, MD accepts calls and emails from families. He is at Baylor in Dallas. (I'm in Houston and use a lot of Baylor docs for my boys.)

Check your insurance to see if they cover medical genetics. And ASK AROUND....to find out who to see...who will listen to people and not treat people like the doctor knows everything. A good person to ask is speech paths...for a referral to a good ped neurologist who will then know the best ped geneticists....

baby crying.

[mamaverdi]

Okay, I have just a moment: so ped geneticists often work with adults too. I would see someone who worked with both children and adults and works with the best ped neuro, the one who works with metabolic disorders.

I can give you names for people in Houston.

[Ruthla]

ok MV- if this is a FOS, wouldn't I have had symptoms since childhood?

Wouldn't I do better on a low fat diet if this was the case? I find that high fat meals keep me more satisfied, and high-carb meals are a problem for me (I end up hungry again shortly and I gain weight when I have a lot of pasta.) These details don't seem to "fit" with my case.

[MyLittleWonders]

Ruthla - what kinds of fats are you consuming? I only ask because I've been reading Eat Fat, Lose Fat, and it seems with the right ones combined with probiotic rich, lacto fermented foods, that it should help cleanse and heal. (Not that I know much! But I've been thinking of this thread while I've been reading the book.) Also, beet kvass is mentioned as being very good for cleansing the liver and overall health.

[mamaverdi]

No, they are finding adult onset. And low-fat is not at all proven to be helpful or not helpful. However, there are different kinds of metabolic disorders that might deal more specifically with your symptoms...I would google hypoglycemia, fasting intolerance, inborn errors of metabolism.

Also, there are many different kinds of FAODs....plus there are glycogen storage disorders which also have to do with hypoglycemia and fasting.

However, I would include in your google search fatty liver.

If you want to PM me with your diverse diagnoses, I might be able to take a look and see if I see anything.

I'm gonna end up beocming a geneticist at this rate.

mv