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I'm going to throw up UPDATE # 144 - Page 6

post #101 of 146
Quote:
Not eveyone has to feel the same about every issue, and this is just one issue where she draws the line. I really fail to see how that is irresponsible of her.
Yes. I clearly see where she draws her line. It is certainly not irresponsible of her to earn a decent living. Sheesh!
post #102 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by kldliam
Yes. I clearly see where she draws her line. It is certainly not irresponsible to her to earn a decent living. Sheesh!
Oh sorry, my comment wasn't really directed at anyone in particular - I was just rambling.

I'll go back to my corner.
post #103 of 146
Kldiam, why keep bringing it back to money?
Quote:
money is the bottom line when you are in business for yourself
and sor forth? I think you're missing Saritabeth's central point, which is that doulas don't perform circumcisions. They're not getting paid for doing circs, they're paid for supporting labouring women.

Personally, about half of the labours I've attended have been done free of charge, and very few doulas that I know of actually "earn a decent living" doing it, so they're not likely to compromise their principles because of the big bucks at stake!

A doula supports a woman in labour. I don't do circumcisions for my clients, I don't encourage them, I won't even watch them. Not for money, not for any reason. Agreeing to do labour support for a couple who later has their child circ'ed is like agreeing to do lawn care for a couple who later has their child circ'ed, at least as far as moral responsibility. Again, we're talking about adults, not feeble-minded children!

I'd still like to know what doulas do if a pregnant woman/couple are asked whether they plan to circumcise and simply say, "none of your business."
post #104 of 146
I can see very well how it is her business if she is a post-partum Doula as well. Forgive my ignorance of a a doula's duties, but might it involve a diaper change or some other new baby care help? She is perfectly in her rights to not have to deal with a bloody stump of a penis, a newborn who is in agony and the ignorant or stubborn, selfish parents who thought it okay to carve up their child.
post #105 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadkitty
I can see very well how it is her business if she is a post-partum Doula as well. Forgive my ignorance of a a doula's duties, but might it involve a diaper change or some other new baby care help? She is perfectly in her rights to not have to deal with a bloody stump of a penis, a newborn who is in agony and the ignorant or stubborn, selfish parents who thought it okay to carve up their child.
I have read this whole thread and not being in the field either, I find a lot of logic in what sadkitty said. I would also be horrified to see the bloody mess left behind after the poor little baby was cut and tormented for no reason except his parent's refusal to accept the truth about circ. :

And dnr3301, circumcison makes me want to :Puke as well as, the people who have it done to their children :
post #106 of 146
Quote:
“Agreeing to do labour support for a couple who later has their child circ'ed is like agreeing to do lawn care for a couple who later has their child circ'ed, at least as far as moral responsibility.”
Lawn care is not a very good analogy to “Doula-ing”. A lawncare person is not concerned with serious matters of birth & babies. Can you at least pick something else that is in the L & D biz or in medical care?

Quote:
“Again, we're talking about adults, not feeble-minded children!”
Are you trying to say that circumcision is a parent's choice? I am not so sure that this is quite in line with Intactivism. You may want to rethink that.
post #107 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger
Personally, about half of the labours I've attended have been done free of charge, and very few doulas that I know of actually "earn a decent living" doing it, so they're not likely to compromise their principles because of the big bucks at stake!
agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by mambadger
Agreeing to do labour support for a couple who later has their child circ'ed is like agreeing to do lawn care for a couple who later has their child circ'ed, at least as far as moral responsibility.
please tell me you're joking here. you are actually comparing this to lawn care? When I work with a family, I am a part of that pregnancy, that birth, that immediate postpartum period. I've cut grass; I've never had someone say to me afterwards, with tears in their eyes, that their grass never would have gotten cut without me. I, myself, get emotionally involved with these people; they are vulnerable in a unique way with me. I consider parto f what I do a service to the baby being born as well. The parents aren't just looking out for what makes it easiest or best for themselves, they want what is best for the baby as well. Circumcision is not best for any baby. I find it shocking that anyone would think a doula is not in a position to advocate for the baby as well as the mother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger
I'd still like to know what doulas do if a pregnant woman/couple are asked whether they plan to circumcise and simply say, "none of your business."
I don't ask if they are planning to circumcise. I say that I have never worked with a family who has. I have never really had much problem leaping into a discussion after that (other than this one, in which part of the problem was that we didn't have a normal interview, they were friends and we both just assumed that meant everything would be hunky dory). I guess if they told me it wasn't my business, I would tell them I can't work with them, because I don't work with couple who circumcise, and if they can't tell me, I have to assume they will.

Really, my position is somewhat selfish as well. I can't handle it (obviously) if I put work into creating a peaceful, gentle birthing environment, then two days later, there goes the peace and gentleness.
post #108 of 146
I was going to say the same thing- lawn care is not in the same realm as doula support! Do you really see it as a singular job, separate from everything else? It's all interconnected to me. I asked earlier in the thread how you are able to reconcile being anti-circumcision while you provide support for a couple who will circumcise. I really do want to know, because I am unable to be around people like that. I certainly wouldn't be able to provide loving support for them.

This suddenly reminded me so much of the thread about staying friends with someone who circumcises after you give them all the information!! There were so many of us who said we simply cannot stomach seeing those people anymore; it's too painful for us. And a few who said it didn't bother them because it's not their decision to make. (Of course, it shouldn't be the parents' decision either...) It's just like that. You do not understand that we are personally, deeply affected and horrified by this human rights violation perpetrated on a helpless infant. And we do not understand how you can separate your anti-circumcision feelings out enough to still attend them.
post #109 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by kldliam
Lawn care is not a very good analogy to “Doula-ing”. A lawncare person is not concerned with serious matters of birth & babies. Can you at least pick something else that is in the L & D biz or in medical care?
How about this analogy - I would not refuse to help a woman with breastfeeding problems or even breastfeeding questions who was planning on or had already had their child circumcised - even if her reasons for breastfeeding were purely "selfish" (i.e. losing weight, saving money). Children should have basic human rights - the right to genital integrity, the right to be fed breastmilk (and yep - I see it as every bit as important as circumcision. Withholding breastmilk can cause lifelong health problems that range from mild to life threatening and even in some cases death), the right to a gentle birth, etc. A traumatic birth experience effects the child every bit as much as the mom. So, let's give him a double whammy - birth trauma and then genital mutilation - heck, let's throw in poison in a bottle - triple threat! I mean, if he's going to be mutilated anyway.... (snarky 40+ week pg hormones - not trying to alienate anyone - just making a point)

Having said that, Rebecca, I think you made a great choice. You were obviously NOT comfortable working with that couple and it most likely would have come across in your care. Obviously this is not a choice that everyone would have made, but we're all different. You stood by the way you felt, and it was obviously a hard decision for you. to you for standing by what you believed. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they'll rethink their decision - you obviously made an impact on them. Even with what I said above, I certainly support a doula's choice to NOT support women who are planning on circing. I know it would have made a big impact on me as a new mom (although I was already against it!).
post #110 of 146
Thread Starter 


Totally OT, but can I just say how excited I am to have started a thread that is six pages of really interesting conversation! It's my first. Usually my threads die slow boring deaths.

I am totally laughing at myself.
post #111 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnr3301


Totally OT, but can I just say how excited I am to have started a thread that is six pages of really interesting conversation! It's my first. Usually my threads die slow boring deaths.

I am totally laughing at myself.
Well, I'm 40+ weeks pregnant, and I just sat here for an HOUR reading the whole darn thing. It's a very interesting thread! I probably should have been nesting - my house would thank me for it.
post #112 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoMama
Well, I'm 40+ weeks pregnant, and I just sat here for an HOUR reading the whole darn thing. It's a very interesting thread! I probably should have been nesting - my house would thank me for it.
When's your due-date?

I never got to 40 weeks. I think if I had, I would've gone bonkers. Being at 39 weeks made me antsy- as my first was born then and so then were the other two.

I wouldn't nest if I were you. That would be jsut the time your water would break just as you were sitting down after four hours of dusting and mopping and straightening.
post #113 of 146
My kids were born at 41w3d, 42w1d, 38w3d and 41w1d. Three of them didn't even come the month they were due, and my little guy was born on the 31st at about 6:30pm, so he barely squeaked in there! LOL!

ITA with the no nesting. It's overrated.
post #114 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoMama
Well, I'm 40+ weeks pregnant, and I just sat here for an HOUR reading the whole darn thing. It's a very interesting thread! I probably should have been nesting - my house would thank me for it.
I even have lurkers!
post #115 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnr3301
I even have lurkers!
I didn't just lurk - I posted! A long one, too!!!!!

p.s. only 40+1
post #116 of 146
Just to be clear, I don't find much similarity between doula work and lawn care. I used the two things for contrast. I was saying they are similar in that neither transmits any guilt if the person's employer decides on circumcision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula's Mom
You do not understand that we are personally, deeply affected and horrified by this human rights violation perpetrated on a helpless infant.
I see no reason to assume that, just because I continue to offer services to the parents and their baby. I like the way ColoradoMama put it:
Quote:
Children should have basic human rights - the right to genital integrity, the right to be fed breastmilk (and yep - I see it as every bit as important as circumcision. Withholding breastmilk can cause lifelong health problems that range from mild to life threatening and even in some cases death), the right to a gentle birth, etc. A traumatic birth experience effects the child every bit as much as the mom. So, let's give him a double whammy - birth trauma and then genital mutilation - heck, let's throw in poison in a bottle - triple threat! I mean, if he's going to be mutilated anyway....
And no, I don't think parents should have the right to choose mutilation for their children. In practice, they now have the option to do so, and until that changes, I can prevent it in every case only if I kidnap and run off with their baby. I'd rather limit myself to actions that will actually benefit the family in some way.

The comment about being unable to remain friends with a circumcising parent struck me. A good friend of mine is an Orthodox Jew. She had a big family, and all four of her boys were circumcised at home on the eighth day. Oddly enough, she was anti-circumcision in a way - she felt that there was only one reason good enough for doing an infant circ: that the Lord and Creator of the universe demanded it. She considered anything else to be a lame, pathetic excuse for such a serious sacrifice, and told other parents so. It even made her angry when Reform or secular Jews had their boys circumcised; as she said, why would they give up every other part of the Law, like keeping kosher, but hang onto infant circ, of all things? Anyway, we remained friends, and I even caught her third child when the midwife didn't make it in time. I wouldn't attend any of the boys' bris, however, and she understood that. I can't see that permanently shunning her would accomplish anything.
post #117 of 146
Quite obviously there are different degrees of personal commitment to Intactivism. I feel so strongly opposed to child mutilation that it colors every move I make. I don't consider myself to be a pseudo Intactivist, perhaps that is why we disagree.
post #118 of 146
Well, my husband tells me that what I REALLY want to say is, um, well, strong. Let's just say that I think arrogance should have no place in intactivism. It's worse than the discreet vs. nondiscreet nursing issue. The infighting hurts the cause worse than the baby killing companies (also know to the rest of the world as Nestle, etc.) Who is a better intactivist is just ridiculous, and it hurts the cause. It makes us all look like a bunch of idiots.
post #119 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger
I'd still like to know what doulas do if a pregnant woman/couple are asked whether they plan to circumcise and simply say, "none of your business."
Speaking as a DONA trained doula I would answer that I would not be able to help them. I would refuse to participate in an innocent boy's circumcision in any way.

~Nay
post #120 of 146
Good for you for dropping them And hopefully they really will do the research this time since you took such a strong stand

I am hoping to be a doula someday (once my babe is a bit older I'm going to look into taking the courses at SMS) and this thread has shown me that I will have to be crystal clear about this issue when first interviewing clients.... especially if they're friends of friends or the like. 'cause I agree that at least bottlefeeding can be done gently and lovingly, but circumcision can NEVER EVER EVER be done gently or lovingly or kindly or any way that's good I think it was Frank who would always say that there's no right way to do something wrong (maybe it was in his sig? It's been so long, I wish he'd come back...).

love and peace.
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