I'm going to throw up UPDATE # 144 - Page 7

[dnr3301]

Originally Posted by ColoradoMama

I didn't just lurk - I posted! A long one, too!!!!!

p.s. only 40+1

yah, I saw it, but after I had posted about you being a lurker.

Thanks for what you said in the last half of your post. I know I made the right decision for me, and understand that it wouldn't have been the right choice for everyone.

[RiverSky]

I just found this thread and read it all.


Yay DNR!!!!

When I first started reading the thread, I was going to suggest crying in front of the couple.... but you did much better. Now we just have to wait and see if they actually go through with the barbaric act.

[Christy1980]

at least 2 good things came from this thread.

1) dnr figured out her true feelings and found a tactful way to resolve an uncomfortable issue.

2) we have a spinoff thread for birth care providers in the circ forum about how to deal tactfully w/ this issue w/ thier clients.








oh, i can hear the lock going into effect! wait for it..............

[americastamps]

anti circ

What a tough spot to be in: believing so strongly that circumcision is mutilation and being faced with parents who are about to do it.

I think so many of the posters had valid thoughts and ideas on the topic. It is nice to see the doula standing up for her beliefs, it is also neat to see that she is open to the suggestion of stating it up front with future clients.

I really agree with Beth and most all of what she said though, and here is why.
People today do not know that they are mutilating their children. They really DO not know. They do not know fully understand how their choices are affecting their children. Do you really believe that people are so inherently evil that they would actively choose to maim their child? the only reason why people choose such a practice as circumcision is because to them it is a totally mainstream, common and acceptable practice. If they thought it was maiming they wouldn't do it. Period. It is unfortunate that many do end up choosing to circumcise, because of all the evidence showing what a harmful practice it is.

It just gets so irritating to see so much anger and hatred floating around for people who haven't been enlightened enough to see things exactly the way we do. Like the comment about a girl deserving the tear she had in childbirth. Yikes! That kind of thought cycle is so destructive both to the person who was in labor, and to that doula herself.

Constructive anger does something about a situation, destructive anger wishes harm on people who don't know better.


And another thing...boy I'm sure Im really going to hear it now cause I'm a newbie and I'm probably not allowed to speak up on anything without showing my resume....
but since when do I have to flash my credentials on my anti circumcision activism to have an opinion about the matter.

Being able to see the other side of the coin doesn't mean we are endorsing it.
You've got to be able to see both sides of the issue to be able to come to conclusion that "your side" is morally right, don't you?

People today don't understand a lot of things...but we can't win them over by anger/harm etc. I used to get so ticked off at people who refuse to listen about the harmful effects of MSG on their body.
But now I've just learned to let it go. If they truly understood how it affected their bodies, I just know they wouldn't eat it.

Hope to learn more from everyone here,

Erica

[americastamps]

By the way I have no idea how the

party hat dude appeared at the top of my post. That due to me being somewhat new to posting here, in the last several months etc.
So forgive me for the partying hat dude. God forbid someone would take him the wrong way...
Erica

[ColoradoMama]

Originally Posted by dnr3301

NOOOOOOOO! I finally have a good thread!Head over there if you're interested, but leave me my cool thread!

We can stay on topic - I have faith!

Be honest with them. Tell them that you have really conflicted feelings for all the reasons that you've already listed. Tell them that you're not sure you'll be able to be the support they need with all of the emotions you're dealing with. Ask them if they've changed their mind. See where the discussion goes. There's no law that says you can't talk with them (except for the fact that they have trouble keeping in touch with you!). Good luck and big hugs - I know this whole thing is really eating you up.

[RiverSky]

Originally Posted by ColoradoMama

Or hey, someone jump in about the infighting thing - I'm always curious about how other people feel about it! Does it bother other people?

Sometimes I hate it and sometimes I just grab some popcorn. : I feel as if I'm usually the one in the middle of it, so it's nice to be a spectator on occasion.

Continue as you were.

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by americastamps

party hat dude appeared at the top of my post. That due to me being somewhat new to posting here, in the last several months etc.
So forgive me for the partying hat dude. God forbid someone would take him the wrong way...
Erica

Party hat dude rules!

[kxsiven]

Totally OT; What exactly doulas do? We do not have anything like that here so I am little bit confused.

[saritabeth]

Originally Posted by americastamps

What a tough spot to be in: believing so strongly that circumcision is mutilation and being faced with parents who are about to do it.

I think so many of the posters had valid thoughts and ideas on the topic. It is nice to see the doula standing up for her beliefs, it is also neat to see that she is open to the suggestion of stating it up front with future clients.

I really agree with Beth and most all of what she said though, and here is why.
People today do not know that they are mutilating their children. They really DO not know. They do not know fully understand how their choices are affecting their children. Do you really believe that people are so inherently evil that they would actively choose to maim their child? the only reason why people choose such a practice as circumcision is because to them it is a totally mainstream, common and acceptable practice. If they thought it was maiming they wouldn't do it. Period. It is unfortunate that many do end up choosing to circumcise, because of all the evidence showing what a harmful practice it is.

It just gets so irritating to see so much anger and hatred floating around for people who haven't been enlightened enough to see things exactly the way we do. Like the comment about a girl deserving the tear she had in childbirth. Yikes! That kind of thought cycle is so destructive both to the person who was in labor, and to that doula herself.

Constructive anger does something about a situation, destructive anger wishes harm on people who don't know better.


And another thing...boy I'm sure Im really going to hear it now cause I'm a newbie and I'm probably not allowed to speak up on anything without showing my resume....
but since when do I have to flash my credentials on my anti circumcision activism to have an opinion about the matter.

Being able to see the other side of the coin doesn't mean we are endorsing it.
You've got to be able to see both sides of the issue to be able to come to conclusion that "your side" is morally right, don't you?

People today don't understand a lot of things...but we can't win them over by anger/harm etc. I used to get so ticked off at people who refuse to listen about the harmful effects of MSG on their body.
But now I've just learned to let it go. If they truly understood how it affected their bodies, I just know they wouldn't eat it.

Hope to learn more from everyone here,

Erica

Beautifully stated.

[dnr3301]

Originally Posted by kxsiven

Totally OT; What exactly doulas do? We do not have anything like that here so I am little bit confused.

http://www.dona.org/mothers/faqs_birth.php#1

[Lula's Mom]

Originally Posted by americastamps

People today do not know that they are mutilating their children. They really DO not know. They do not know fully understand how their choices are affecting their children.

It just gets so irritating to see so much anger and hatred floating around for people who haven't been enlightened enough to see things exactly the way we do.

Erica

I'm not condoning wishing harm to other people. But it is very hard not to feel angry when you know people DO have the information -because you gave it to them personally!- and they still choose this. It's willful ignorance, and that's really hard to stomach. We are here to enlighten. But I'm only human.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by Quirky

Doula means with woman, not martyred for the cause.

Actually, midwife means "with woman." Doula comes from the Greek word for female slave.

[dnr3301]

Originally Posted by americastamps

People today do not know that they are mutilating their children. They really DO not know. They do not know fully understand how their choices are affecting their children. Do you really believe that people are so inherently evil that they would actively choose to maim their child? the only reason why people choose such a practice as circumcision is because to them it is a totally mainstream, common and acceptable practice. If they thought it was maiming they wouldn't do it. Period. It is unfortunate that many do end up choosing to circumcise, because of all the evidence showing what a harmful practice it is.

I operate on the premis that no one would knowingly harm their baby, therefore it's safe to assume that they won't circumcise once they know the info. HOWEVER, it has been shown over and over again that even with the info, people still circumcise (see any of the heart breaking "I gave them all the info and my SIL still wants to do it" type threads). I still don't believe it's because they are evil, but that they are so warped by society that they can't see anything else. I'm obviously (to me) not talking about religious ceremonies; to me there is a whole other level of pressure to do it.

I think that many people orignally think of it as nothing more than cutting the cord after a baby is born. Maybe I'm the first person to tell them it is a bigger deal than that. Maybe I'm the first person to show that it IS maiming, that it does matter, that social conformity is not a good reason to do it.

People get weird when it comes to conforming. I was at a doula-run parent topic night, and this couple talked to me afterwards. They were white (only mentioned for the next point), and the dad had dreadlocks. Not commonly seen on white men in Minnesota. The mom was leaning towards homebirthing, but the dad would not hear about it. At some point he walked away to talk to someone else, and the mom told me his biggest problem with homebirth was that he didn't want to be different. I just looked at her blankly, thinking, "does he realize he has dreads?" He was already pressing up against some social norms (for MN), but homebirth was so different to him, he couldn't even think about it.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

It may be taking a chance, but I'm going to agree with Beth. If you can't in good conscience take on clients who plan to circ, they should be notified before you agree to provide your services. It's only fair. In fact, I'll go further: I can't see myself making demands of this kind on a client at all.

I think my anti-circ credentials are as good as anyone's, and I live in a place where few new babies are circumcised and it's not generally accepted. However, I think a professional caregiver, whether OB, midwife, or doula, has no business telling clients how to live their lives. Providing information is one thing, but choosing only clients who agree with you seems a little presumptuous to me.

In theory, you could carry these restrictions farther. I could insist on maintaining my principles and refusing to accept:

1. Anyone planning to circumcise, and by extension
2. All Jews, and
3. All Moslems. Also
4. Parents who will not be breastfeeding
5. Parents who believe in spanking

A doula is hired to help a woman with her birth, not as the overseer and judge of all her moral and ethical decisions thereafter.
:

I completely disagree. Doulas and midwives and naturopaths are concerned with the holistic health of the mother/baby dyad. Not just with getting the baby out. They are assisting a family, not just a uterus, as many OBs do.

It's not judging all the moral and ethical decisions the clients ever make hereafter. It's just a wellness position.

I had 2 homebirths and both my midwife teams told me they do not take clients who do not plan to breastfeed. First of all, b/c the bfing contracts the uterus, but also b/c a healthy, normal birth should be followed by normal infant feeding, human milk. This is the norm and should be promoted as such. They recommend LLL to all their clients.

We never planned on circing any children so I do not recall even discussing the subject with our midwives. But if the doula/midwife is concerned with the longterm health of the family they are working with, and circing interferes with this, they are well within their right to be upfront about this.

Taking a firm stand will be educational for the clients, and education is a good thing.

[saritabeth]

I have said in this thread and before that I respect people knowing their boundaries and their ethical limitations.

Here is where it becomes more murky for me personally. I truly believe that labor support can be the spring board for women to be more loving and gentle towards their babies. A Good birth experience can foster better attachments and more loving choices and lower incidents of PPD. Hopefully by even having a doula women who maybe are likely to circumcise or not consider bfing will have access to education and support in making (what may be for them) counter culture choices in the best interest of their child.

While I can not always change the hearts and minds of women, I hope that I may. I feel my role is educational and I can only do my best to provide the info. It is challenging and hard to watch poor choices being made despite the information offered, but nothing ventured nothing gained. If I am working with only people who are like minded I lose the educational component and don't have the best chance at helping people make better choices for themselves and their babies.

This way of working isn't for everyone and isn't 'the better way'. Its deeply personal for each doula and both ways have their merits.

Anyway....just another way to look at it.

[ColoradoMama]

Originally Posted by saritabeth

A Good birth experience can foster better attachments and more loving choices and lower incidents of PPD. Hopefully by even having a doula women who maybe are likely to circumcise or not consider bfing will have access to education and support in making (what may be for them) counter culture choices in the best interest of their child.

Woo hoo - this thread has gotten back on topic! Anyway, I totally agree with this statement. It also goes beyond just the mother. I said this before, but a traumatic birth experience doesn't just affect the mother - it affects the baby as well - it can affect both their emotional well being and their health. However, I want to make sure I say this again, too. I can see how certain issues, such as circumcision, would make it so that a woman would feel too uncomfortable to properly support a woman in labor. I can see how some women would say, "I cannot be a labor support person if X, Y, or Z is going to be a part of it." I guess I can see both sides of this particular issue.

[DocsNemesis]

I used to be a doula and am working on becoming a midwife. I refused to work with couples who were going to circ as a doula, and I will refuse to work with them as a midwife. I just cant put myself in that position. I suppose if I never asked and therefore didnt know what they were planning it wouldnt bother me so much, but then I would feel bad for not asking and trying to save the baby....
My midwives do work with anyone, regardless of their decision on circumcision, breastfeeding, etc. However, when a parent says they want to circ they make them watch the circ video and they give them all the info. 9 times out of 10, it changes their minds. And if it doesnt, they continue to work with them. Mind you, all of the midwives in the practice are completely against RIC. I know that at least one of them has told me that if she wasnt working in a group practice setting like that, she would totally take a stand and not accept patients that refused to leave their babies intact.
I dunno, I guess I could see people who were planning it, make the same "demands" as far as watching the video and listening to the info, and if they really refused, then ask that they at least wait a couple of months to minimize the risks. Hopefully if I could convince them of that, they would see how normal it is. Fortunately I live in an area with low circing rates....I cant imagine what I would do in a high circ area.
Anyway, I do think it is important for people to take a stand against it. I mean, if someone who is thinking it isnt a big deal has their midwife/doctor/doula/whatever refuse to work with them over it, it might get them thinking, whoa, maybe this isnt such a minor issue. And maybe it wont. But I can say personally that if someone refused to work with me over that or something else, it would have had a big impact on me before my first.

[kxsiven]

Originally Posted by dnr3301

http://www.dona.org/mothers/faqs_birth.php#1

Ah, thanks. We do have after all something like that but they work in hospitals and maternity clinics. Since spouses do get paid vacation when children are born, doulas work here is to mainly advice both parents with any questions they might have with birth itself and taking care of the newborn at home.

[alba]

I wouldn't have a doula that wasn't an intactivist. There is certainly something to be said for doulas that are true to their moral beliefs.