I'm going to throw up UPDATE # 144 - Page 2

[nd_deadhead]

Oh, Rebecca, I'm sorry.

When my brother and his wife were expecting their first, my DH and I talked to her about circumcision. My brother has a circumcised son from a previous marriage, so I was pretty sure I knew what he would do, but she is a smart, thoughtful woman (she teaches special ed), and I thought we had a chance.

But she said they would circ if the baby was a boy (thank God it was a girl). DH and I told her it wasn't recommended, it was painful - the works - and still no go.

Now they're pregnant again. DH and I have been thinking long and hard about how to handle it this time around, and here's what we've come up with. I'm going to send them an e-mail (they live in another state), insisting that every pain control method be used (and explain them), suggesting that they wait at least a week to establish breastfeeding, and describing (in gory detail) aftercare and complications to watch for.

I'm hoping that will scare them into rethinking, but if not, at least the baby will have pain relief, and the parents will know how to care for him. Oh, and I'll also include a bit about loose circumcision - tell them not to be surprised if he doesn't even look circumcised, depending on how much foreskin is left.

My SIL knows how we feel, so there isn't much point in harping about it any more. The best we can hope for now (like you) is to provide the baby with the best possible care during and after his operation.

I feel for you, Rebecca, and I wish people would just LISTEN to us!!!

[homebirthing]

You can also tell them that it violates too many human rights ethics for you.

I just wanted to quote this. And I want to say this also. As far as getting families to change their minds, most families that I work with aren't sure about circumcision when they meet me. There are some that I "let" hire me not fully knowing if they are going to decide to circumcise. Their choice on where and how they give birth lets me know a lot about the way they view their baby. There have been two couples in four years (doula for 5 1/2) that I haven't worked with. One I could tell in the interview would not change their mind (dad's mind) and one was the awesome couple that floored me with wanting to do it. One had a girl and one circumcised. For both of them, I wouldn't have been able to support this great birth and then watch them mutilate their newborn helpless infant.

MY ethics are allowed into ANY decision I make. I get A LOT of crap from people who think I should support all families regardless. They can be pissed at me, but my family matters too. We (both of us) are effected by what we do. We don't leave a birth at the hospital/home. We bring it with us throughout our day. We process it and replay it, whether it is happy or tragic. For us, the mere thought of someone circumcising is enough to make us physcially throw up. You know in your heart that you are right. It is a huge step to make it a reality.

And you will be in this place again, but luckily you won't be the doula.

We need more then one nocirc doula here, Rebecca!

Sarah - intactivist

[dnr3301]

sarah- it's always helpful for me to read words I've already heard, so thank you for typing that out.

I've sent out a request for another doula (we're on a Yahoo group with many doulas in the Twin Cities), so hopefully I can find someone for them. As I was talking to Sarah on the phone earlier, crying, I realized I can't do it. I'll find someone else for them, but it's not fair to anyone involved if I am hoping for a particular outcome at a birth. This couple has so many other issues, and I've really been putting myself out there for them in a way I wouldn't for anyone else, and it's not fair to me, in the end it's not fair to them, and none of this is fair to the baby. So I'm out. I really hope my friend and her mom don't hate me, but I can only control my own feelings, and make a stand where I can.

I told her to look into the pain meds available for the baby, but you know in the end, that only touches on one of the problems I have with circumcising. Yes, I have issues with hurting newborns, but there are also life long ramifications, so insisting on adequate pain meds and someone with the baby is a bandaid.

Sarah also reminded me that my crying at the thought of this is the normal reaction, they are the ones with a weird way of thinking, not me. That helped. (and she liked my siggie so much, she changed hers, didja notice? )

[coloradoalice]

Wow. I am really impressed at how you are handling this. You have gone as far as you can and I think that this couple should realize that. It's unfortunate but if they are insistant on mutilating their son after birth it puts you in such a horrible position. I hope you can find someone to work with them.

There are such ramifications to working with pregnant moms aren't there? It's amazing how knowing what I know, the way I view people, especially those that are properly informed, has changed. I litereally cannot stomach anyone who knows all the facts and does it anyway. It has ruined my relationship with my sister and probably my mom also. I have a friend that is due around Christmas and they circumcised their first, but I know she didn't do much research into it. They aren't going to find out the sex, so I have to be proactive. This time she will be informed, and if she does it I'm sure it will ruin our friendship. I have a hard time even dealing with people who did it out of ignorance. I have a noticable physical response towards those that are informed and do it anyway. It just makes me so sad and angry.

[Heidi]

Good for you mamma. Your standing firm sends tingles down my spine. I hope mabie they realize how serious their decision really is. I was ignorant about circumcision when I was pregnant with my son as well. Luckily my husband is a wonderful strong man who would not hear of it. Now, like your siggy says, the more I learn, the worse it gets. I am horrified that circ. is still being practiced and thank each day that my son is intact. Out of ignorance, it would have been so easy to go the other way. You truly are sending a very clear and powerful message. Thankyou.

[Yoshua]

are they Christians?


if so PM me and I will PM you a write up on scripture indicating why people who believe Jesus is the Mesiah shouldn't circ.

[dynamohumm6]

Originally Posted by kldliam

I'd send a loud and clear message to them a.s.a.p. You can tell them that you can no longer work with couples who choose to circumcise; starting now. You can also tell them that it violates too many human rights ethics for you. Many doulas wont do it, so you are not alone. Perhaps it will be an eye-opener to them. We absolutely can not continue to offer our support to the circumcising culture anymore....it just sends the wrong message.

ditto that.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this, mama

[Quirky]

Oh, Rebecca, I'm so sorry that they (and really, the doctors who continue this barbaric practice and society as a whole) have put you in this position. It sounds like you're making the decision that will allow you to be at peace with yourself. You shouldn't have to martyr yourself for the sake of a couple who cannot take their cultural blinders off and act in their baby's best interests rather than their own.

I know that if I were doula or midwife to a couple who were planning on circumcising their baby (of either gender) I couldn't do it. I just couldn't. The baby is a human being with human rights and no baby deserves to be cut.

[momto3boys]

[QUOTE=nd_deadhead]Oh, Rebecca, I'm sorry.

Oh, and I'll also include a bit about loose circumcision - tell them not to be surprised if he doesn't even look circumcised, depending on how much foreskin is left.

I wouldn't include that. IF they are of the mindset that he MUST be circ'd they could actually REQUEST a tight circ because they heard that loose circs don't look circ'd......................

[nd_deadhead]

[QUOTE=momto3boys]

Originally Posted by nd_deadhead

Oh, Rebecca, I'm sorry.

Oh, and I'll also include a bit about loose circumcision - tell them not to be surprised if he doesn't even look circumcised, depending on how much foreskin is left.

I wouldn't include that. IF they are of the mindset that he MUST be circ'd they could actually REQUEST a tight circ because they heard that loose circs don't look circ'd......................

Hmm, I hadn't thought about that - it's a good point.

Perhaps indicating that they are done differently now (compared to 1968, when my brother was born, or even 1992, when my nephew was born) might avoid that trap.

[dnr3301]

Originally Posted by Yoshua

are they Christians?


if so PM me and I will PM you a write up on scripture indicating why people who believe Jesus is the Mesiah shouldn't circ.

nope. religion has nothing to do with this.

[InDaPhunk]

You said they don't have any money. Are they on medicaid? I don't think medicaid covers circs in MN. If not on medicaid, does their personal insurance pay for it? If they're having to pay out of pocket then they're not all that broke, kwim?

[dnr3301]

Originally Posted by InDaPhunk

You said they don't have any money. Are they on medicaid? I don't think medicaid covers circs in MN. If not on medicaid, does their personal insurance pay for it? If they're having to pay out of pocket then they're not all that broke, kwim?

they have health insurance, both work (lower end jobs) for pharm companies. They said if insurance didn't cover it, they wouldn't do it.

MN doesn't cover it with medicaid.

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by dnr3301

they have health insurance, both work (lower end jobs) for pharm companies. They said if insurance didn't cover it, they wouldn't do it.

Were they even listening to themselves when they said that? Basically they're saying, "we want our son to have surgery, but if we have to pay for it ourselves we'll just not bother with it." It must not be that important of a surgery if they can take it or leave it like that.

~Nay

[dnr3301]

Originally Posted by AntoninBeGonin

Were they even listening to themselves when they said that? Basically they're saying, "we want our son to have surgery, but if we have to pay for it ourselves we'll just not bother with it." It must not be that important of a surgery if they can take it or leave it like that.

~Nay

they weren't thinking, that's the thing. That's why this fight is so hard. It's not logic based. How do you argue with that?

His eyes glazed over and he just started repeating, "it's our choice, we get to choose, this is what we choose." I heard his voice change.

you want irony? I just got their birth plan and the beginning of it says "We take our responsibility of being good parents very seriously, and want to do what is best for our baby."

Ummmmm, no you don't.:

[Daisie125]

Originally Posted by Yoshua

are they Christians?


if so PM me and I will PM you a write up on scripture indicating why people who believe Jesus is the Mesiah shouldn't circ.

I know this wasn't pointed at me, but I'm getting ready to talk about it with my SIL (she is TTC) and her and her husband say they plan to do it for religious reasons, and I would love to show them that being Christian doesn't mean they should circ.

If you could please PM me with this information I would really appreciate it.

[willowsmama]

Honestly Rebecca the more you share about these folks the more it seems you should pass them to someone else. They obviously do not trust you or value your opinion. I can't see you being able to well, doula effectively with them blowing you off yk?

And I think I verbed the word doula.lol

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by A&A

But refusing to help them would send a strong message and perhaps they'd reconsider.

I have to agree. There is more at stake than family favors, there is child torture & lifelong mutilation to avoid- no one is 'owed' a doula. I'd tell them 'no'- with tears in my eyes, but 'no'. I couldn't be a part of it.

eta- Good choice. Thank you for your courage to make a stand.

[splash]

I would dump them, and not even find them someone else. Because I am like that. Because I believe someone isn't entitled to a birth support and pain management if she is not even allowing her child basic human protection.

I would not be able to support someone like that. I didn't go to my nephew's birth because of it, and even though Jean was there, when Jess tore and complained how much it hurt, her words to her were "You deserve it." Right or wrong, I think she did. Unfortunately HER genital pain didn't make her give a rat's tail about her child, who was them circed twice in his first 8 days of life.

You shouldn't be put in this situation. It's not fair to you. You shouldn't be forced to assist in a child being circumcised.

[rozzie'sma]

I know it is hard but I would have to tell them I could not help them. Think beyond family favors. Are you really going to be helpful toward this woman knowing what she is going to do to that little boy? I couldn't be I would be praying she has the most painful delivery possible with the deepest episiotomy ever so that she get to feel what she is doing to her son. But I am kind of sick that way. I think it is very odd when women refer to being "butchered" by their OB and then proceed to amputate part of their sons genitals without a second thought.