Religious Descrimination as related to Motherhood/Nannying.

[moonfirefaery]

My feelings are so hurt right now. I don't know if I'm more pissed off or if I just want to cry.

I have very few friends here because I'm an at-home mom who doesn't get out much. I've been developing a friendship with my neighbor who has a 12-month-old little girl. We've always gotten along.

She approached me and asked me to nanny her little girl 5 days a week for $400 a month, which is really a bargain in our city, and I said yes. I've been just so excited about it, not just so we can have some extra money, but so the kids can socialize, so I can get used to having two babies, and because I'd love some girl time.

She said she thinks I'm a very good mother, that she can see that in my interactions with my son, and that she'd much rather her daughter be with me than in daycare. That made me feel very good.

Today, she and I were talking, and she was telling me her church needs nursery volunteers. I asked if they'd have a problem with me not being Christian. She asked "What are you?" and I told her I was Pagan.

They just freaked. Their faces looked like they had just discovered a terrorist. She told me she has a huge problem with that with this look of shock and appallment on her face. I told them I'd be happy to explain what I believe, and I did.

They started lecturing me, questioning my faith, etc. I tried to remain calm and polite, just answer honestly but without being offensive. She brought her brother down, who claims to know more about it because he's read so much. I tried to tell them that I'd studied this for ten years and know plenty about it. They started reading me book quotes, asking me to read up on these books, basically so I'd come back to Christianity. I'm very secure in my beliefs. One day I may find Christianity is my path again, but that's NOT the way I want to find it. Anyway, they pretty much interrogated me for like half an hour, and I was so nervous and uncomfortable. I was afraid I was losing a friend as well as a job over my religion, which hasn't ever happened to me before. I know it's because she doesn't know much about it...though they seem to think that they do...but I'm so hurt. They kept lecturing me about how Protestantism broke away from Catholicism...as if I didn't already know, considering they taught me that in like ninth grade. Her brother was telling me a high school diploma means squat these days and pretty much that I have no education. He asked me why I felt it was necessary to worship the Earth... which I don't.

I left with a book and a broken-heart. She said she'll get back to me about nannying. They weren't trying to be mean, but it seemed very rude. I tried to tell her it isn't going to affect how I watch her daughter. I'm not going to change her diaper in some Pagan way, talk about Yule to her, or pray to the Goddess with her. She said "Yeah but it's such a huge difference of religion, and it affects how you live your life. I have to think about it." I told her we probably agree on most things, that it affects my life really just by me respecting nature and being nice to people, and that I don't often make religious references because I feel religion is a personal thing. I just don't see how my having a different relationship would affect my ability to give her daughter a bottle of milk. If I'm such a good mother then it shouldn't matter, right? It's not like Paganism is contagious, I have Earth mama cooties, and I'm going to convert her. I mean, I sure as heck wouldn't do to her or anyone what she just did to me. She said it's more about her needing to follow her religion in every way of life, including who watches her kid...and I just fail to see how leaving your child with someone of a different faith a few hours a day is going to go against Catholicism? Especially when it's a person who is very quiet about their religion and believes about thes ame as you do about how to live life... (Any Catholics who want to explain this to me... please do so.)

So, I'm sorry. I just needed a place to vent and get some advice. I don't know what to do. Part of me wants to just smile and nod and pretend I agree with them, kind of hide my faith a bit so I don't lose a friend...and another prat of me wants to march back over there with this book, tell them that I know a lot more than they give me credit for, that I'm not Pagan cuz of my age, that I'm not a bad person, that it was rude to do thta to me, that I don't appreciate it, and that I have no desire to be their friend or nanny if they are going to treat me like an ignorant devil-worshipper. I'm just so torn. I have no friends, and now i'm losing one because I have a different belief system.

[mamacatsbaby]

x-post!

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=1#post5823603

[moonfirefaery]

That's ok. It was my fault!

I've never felt religious descrimination like this, and it really stings. I've dealt with shock, curiosity, ignorance, rude comments...but I've never dealt with anything near as bad as this.

[aprons_and_acorns]

I am so sorry you are dealing with a situation like this. Discrimination hurts, no matter what.

Here is my advice to you, and I know you are going through a hard time with this on an emotional level, so please forgive me if this sounds insensitive. It is not meant to be.

1. I think you were setting yourself up to be taken advantage of in the first place with this arrangement. $400 a month is not enough money to pay for a full-time nanny. I know you were looking forward to the opportunity but believe me this is not the only family around looking for afforable child care. (If I could have a AP-practicing next-door living nanny for under $100 a week I would be back at work so fast your head would spin )

2. I think that if the parents are not comfortable with a non-Christian nanny, then nothing you do will satisfy them. Now you are working full time, for about $2 an hour, and you get to feel like you are not "good enough" because of your religion. That sounds like a raw deal to me.

3. Also, I am pretty sure that in situations like yours, there often isn't really much of an understanding that can be reached, except to just not discuss the topic of religion. They probably think that you have made a very dangerous and unwise decision by not embracing the Christian faith, and since it is unlikely that either of you will change your minds, you need to make it clear that the topic is not up for discussion.

Well, that's my two cents anyway. What a rotten situation to be in. I am so sorry that you are dealing with religious discrimination and being evangelized to by your neighbors. I am sorry it looks like your opportunity to make some money and get some socialization for your child may have fallen through. I hope you will take my advice for what it's worth to you and then make your own decision about how to deal with this troubling ordeal.

And there are LOTS of nice, Pagan mamas here to find community with. And plenty of non-Pagan parents who have a sense of respect for other people's religions.

[moonfirefaery]

See, she is (was?) my friend, so that's why I agreed to $400 even though it isn't much....and yeah I know I probably can't change their minds...but I almost feel like I don't even want to be friends with them after this. I need the money and the practice, but if they are going to lecture me all the time and expect me to Christianize myself... I donno. It just feels so ridiculous and wrong, and like I said, I'm REALLY hurt. I don't know where I can find another oppertunity to nanny. I don't know many people here, and I'm not a certified child care person or anything so... it feels like I've lost a friend, a job, and a playmate for my son.

[pumpkin]

You should not have to hide your religion to have a friend or a job. I do believe that for the purpose of employment, religion just should not be discussed. There isn't any good way to avoid it becoming an issue.

When it comes to friendship, I've got friends of many religions. Many of these religions technically 'conflict' with one another. But friends respect the beliefs of the others in their lives. I would never, never try to convince a friend that they were in the wrong religion and I would not stay friends with someone who tried to change mine.

[moonfirefaery]

I wish I hadn't said anything, but that would have just been lying by omission. *sighs*

[aprons_and_acorns]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery

See, she is (was?) my friend, so that's why I agreed to $400 even though it isn't much....and yeah I know I probably can't change their minds...but I almost feel like I don't even want to be friends with them after this. I need the money and the practice, but if they are going to lecture me all the time and expect me to Christianize myself... I donno. It just feels so ridiculous and wrong, and like I said, I'm REALLY hurt. I don't know where I can find another oppertunity to nanny. I don't know many people here, and I'm not a certified child care person or anything so... it feels like I've lost a friend, a job, and a playmate for my son.

Oh, I totally understand about agreeing to the arrangement under the premise that it is your friend. I wasn't meaning to criticize you for that. I don't blame you a bit for wanting to break off the friendship over this. How awkward for you to be in the middle of this. And how disappointing to lose the opportunity to work AND to have a playmate for your son on a regular basis. I would be hurt too

[aprons_and_acorns]

Originally Posted by pumpkin

When it comes to friendship, I've got friends of many religions. Many of these religions technically 'conflict' with one another. But friends respect the beliefs of the others in their lives. I would never, never try to convince a friend that they were in the wrong religion and I would not stay friends with someone who tried to change mine.

I agree with you.

[Anglyn]

Think about how THey would feel if you, your dh and your brother attacked thier religion and spent half an hour telling them why they are wrong, why they need to change then basically insulting your intelligence (you dont need a college education to be educated, you can obviously read and comprehend and use critical thinking skills, more than they seem to be doing).

I would tell them flat out that no, they obviously do NOT understand your religion, and that what they did to you was rude and unacceptable. You are not attacking thier religion, life style, values, priorities, choices or beliefs, they have no right to attack yours.

Im so so sorry if you lose the job and a friend over this. But a true friend wouldnt stop being your friend just because you dont share thier religious views. Ive had friends ranging from catholics to jews to southern babtists, muslims, pagans, wiccans etc. and even an atheist or two! To me, its just fear, ignorance and prejuidice that makes one beleive that all others must conform to ONE set of beleifs. What is wrong with differing opinions, friendly exchange of ideas, respect for other cultures?

I do not understand those who try to shove thier ideas down everyones throat, its ironic to me because those are the people who are most offended when someone tries to do that to THEM.

This may not be right, but I just plain and simple never tell anyone my beleifs. Well, rarely. And this is why. I never would have told them or the church that I didnt have thier views. Just smile and nod. And I do see the value in thier religion and there are parts of it that are good. And if every christian followed the actual teachings of christ, wouldnt this be a wonderful world? But I know that you will never win an argument with this type of person, they are closed off from learning and knowledge. How sad that her brother feels college was it. He went to four years of college and learned all there is to learn, eh? Learning is a life long endevour. I distrust any religion, creed or belief system that discourages tolerance, openess, etc. I dont believe that God gave us thinking, anayltical minds and expects us to NOT use them. That's spitting in the face of the divine IMO.

[moonfirefaery]

I can't chose whether or not I'll get to nanny for her...but I know that if she does chose not to let me nanny, I don't know if I want to be her friend...and if she thinks I'm going to be her nanny on the condition that I'll seek Christian enlightenment, I don't really want to be her nanny or her friend. I'm not even sure I want to even consider nannying her kid or being her friend, either one, after that reaction.

I felt like one of those "out of the box" moms on Surviving Motherhood...so very educated, doing what's right for them, and yet being grilled by a bunch of ignorant mainstream moms who feel they MUST know more since they made a different decision. If it were her in a room of Pagans, I think she'd have been very uncomfortable. She was like "I don't want you to feel we're ganging up on you." I was like "*gawk* You, your mom, and your brother are in here interrogating me! Shaking your heads and looking sad for me and all!"

I shouldn't have even sat there and listened to it. I was hoping to save the friendship and job in explaining myself, but I don't know if it made a difference...and I shouldn't have been obligated to do it either. I should have just said "Look, you know what, you obviously do not understand my religion or know me at all, and if you think I believe what I do because I'm ignorant or young, you're sincerely mistaken. Having a different opinion doesn't necessarily mean I'm stupid or naive...so bye."

And my poor kid was just crawling around trying to have a good time, and now they are looking at him like the poor sad savage little pagan boy that desperately needs saving from his heathen mother..and I was tempted to just be like "How dare you look at my son like that?" For a second I even FELT like he was the poor sweet good boy with the devil mother, and that's awful.

[GooeyRN]

Im sorry about this. I am Catholic and do not know any Catholics IRL who act like that. Maybe she is concerned about you not wanting to pray before meals? Catholics often say grace before meals, and maybe she is concerned that you will not encourage her to pray before meals? Or feed her child meat on Friday's during lent? Maybe you can ask her if there is something specific she is concerned about? Maybe she doesn't want you teaching her child about your religion? Your friend does not sound like any of the Catholic's I know. We are taught to love and respect all people, and their beliefs while teaching others of our own. (never in a down your throat manner) Im really sorry you have to go through this, and loose a possible friend. You guys really need a good hear to heart about what the problem is with you having a different set of beliefs. My best friend is Agnostic, My dad and Nana are Baptist, some cousins are Methodist, have some Jewish inlaws, many Catholic family members, etc. We all get along great. We embrace our similarities, instead of fighting about our differences, while respecting our differences.

[siobhang]

I am so sorry you are going through this. What a shock!

To look for any silver lining - at least you know NOW how she feels before you started watching her child. It makes "breaking up" with her that much easier for both of you.

Also, while their dd may be wonderful, it may make you question whether your friend and her family are good influences for your ds to be around as he grows up.

I certainly would not want my kids to be around people who will not be respectful of my religious beliefs and who try to "convince" me I am wrong.

Basically, they sound like they were f***ing obnoxious to you and that they see nothing wrong with their behavior. Those are NOT the kind of people I'd want my kids around.

{hugs}

Siobhan
etc: I forgot you have a boy and not a girl!

[moonfirefaery]

She had no problem when I JUST wasn't Catholic, and then suddenly I'm Pagan and she freaked. I told her I'll do as she wants with her kid; we'd reached that understanding long before this. I told her "Just let me know what to do/not to do." If she wants me to pray before meals, observe Lent with Arianna, etc., I definitely will. I think I should ask about specifics; I'll definitely ask. I told her I wouldn't teach my child about my religion. I think they are just sheltered and know very little about witchcraft, and what they have heard obviously wasn't learned in the right places.

And Siobhan, I totally agree. Even if we get over this, that they dd that to me, just in and of itself, is terrible and makes me really cautious about having Corbin anywhere near them. Corey is Christian! We want Corbn to be tolerate, to understand and accept people of all faiths. Not grill the first Buddhist he meets.

And ps...her daughter is only 12 months old!

[moonfirefaery]

Makes me, if they do decide not to let me nanny, just wanna decorate my yard and porch with Pagan stuff just to spite them. Hang up some pentacles and "Goddess bless you" signs. That'll show them eccentric!

And I rarely mention my beliefs either. It's personal. No one needs to know. And if they do, it usually just causes conflict. I shouldn't have even said anything.

Her bro is autistic and thinks he knows everything about everything, so much that she has to scold him to get him to hush. He's like in his 30s and lives with her and tries to preach things like "Cancer isn't a disease" and so on. He made all kinds of rude comments about how young I got started and everything when I first met him, and it's like he's not meaning to be a jerk but is succeeding anyway. Like, because I'm a stay-at-home mom who didn't go to college and doesn't need to read to know what I believe, I'm a moron.

Sorry. I've gone from almost wanting to cry to just being really pissed.

[siobhang]

I want to add that I have found that some folks treat paganism and atheism differently than other religions -like they aren't "real" (well, atheism isn't a religion, per se, but you get my meaning).

I got a lecture a while back from a supposed friend out to "prove" that I really deep down believed in God and I was too arrogant or something to admit it. Pissed me off no end. I finally just cut him off by walking out of the room.

But I know this guy pretty well - if I were Jewish, he'd never even consider telling me that I was wrong about the divinity of Christ. Ditto Muslim or Buddist or whatever.

I don't think it is a good idea to hide your religious beliefs, though I tend not to be very open about mine unless someone actually asks or the conversation warrents it.

Siobhan

[moonfirefaery]

It feels like that is exactly what they were doing, treating me like I don't have a real religion (despite the fact that Paganism covers not only Wicca but also buddhist, hinduisum, and other ones that they had very little issue with!). They told me the God of Abraham leaves a mark on every he tocuhes and never really leaves me, and they were trying to prove I was still Christian but just didn't want to or something... No, I believe in God, but I do NOT beleive Jesus was the son of God or that we burn eternally in Hell!

And that's how I am. I don't hide it, but I'm open about it. I only bring it up when conversation requires.

[siobhang]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery

Makes me, if they do decide not to let me nanny, just wanna decorate my yard and porch with Pagan stuff just to spite them. Hang up some pentacles and "Goddess bless you" signs. That'll show them eccentric!

heh, I have a pagan friend who loves dressing up in purple robes and walking to her unitarian church on holy days. Freaks out the neighbors.

It doesn't help that her son collects lizards and snakes as pets - which are notoriously hard to keep alive, so she is always disposing of dead ones in her trash or burying them in the back yard.

But in reality, she is a lovely middle class wife and mom working as a public health statistician.

Siobhan

[moonfirefaery]

I'm not near "as Pagan" as some others. It's a really quiet, internal part of my life. I rarely "show it" outwardly except on the Sabbats. Mostly, I quietly think about how it relates to my life. I reflect on its teachings and how I can better live my life, rather than talking about it. I don't "dress Pagan" or "decorate Pagan" or "talk Pagan." It's just what I believe, not who I am.

I was telling him how we don't all believe the same thing, and they said that seems silly. They seem to have encountered some Pagans who were, well, weird possibly even 'bad.' I told him "Well, it's because Paganism applies to so many religions, and because so many belief systems are fighting over the name of Wicca. Plus, these beliefs come from many tribes, and they all had different beliefs." Sometimes I think it'd just be easier to call it something else with fewer negative conotations attached, like naturism or something. *sighs*

[siobhang]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery

And that's how I am. I don't hide it, but I'm open about it. I only bring it up when conversation requires.

Good on ya. It is hard, especially when there are so many false assumptions and weird ideas floating around. I clammed up for a long time about my lack of belief in God. I've stopped doing that because it doesn't help anything in the long run. But it is tempting to just "go along to get along", as it were.

Hopefully your friend will eventually pry her mind open enough to actually LISTEN to you and maybe she'll see that Paganism has deep historical and religious significance.

Siobhan