No brats allowed!

[Wabi Sabi]

Anyone else see this article yet? Sigh.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14136994/

And for a few of the reader's comments:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14348175/

[lotusdebi]

*

[chinaKat]

Frankly, I can see where the backlash is coming from.

I don't blame children for being children. But I'd be surprised if there was anybody here that *hasn't* witnessed a situation where parents, through thoughtlessness, ignorance, or indifference, didn't create a situation where their children's behavior (developmentally appropriate that it might be) in a public place was troublesome to other people.

Unfortunately, the people that insist that it's totally okay for their toddler to talk loudly and throw things at other people during a PG-13 movie have ruined it for all the wonderful parents that work especially hard to find ways to make public outings fun and enjoyable for their children AND their fellow citizens of the world.

You know what I'm talking about if you've ever brought your child on an airplane or into a restaurant. You automatically get the stinkeye from everybody around you. And at the end of the trip or meal, people come up to you, ASTONISHED b/c your child was "so well behaved".

People are (sadly) accustomed to seeing really poor parenting. No wonder they want to have child free public places.

[aprilushka]

I think it's appropriate to say no kids, or only older kids for example with nice restaurants or anywhere else that doesn't cater to kids and makes a point of that. The bookstore example is ridiculous though-- if you put a train set in a bookstore you can hardly complain about the noise from kids playing with it.

[lovingmommyhood]

Give me a break. Kids are kids and if these people can't handle a little noise than that's really their problem. YES I try to be considerate of others, no I don't bring my toddler to the movies, nor do we take him out to a restaurant for a late supper but I think that other people need to have a little more tolerance and compassion for those of us who are doing our best.

There are often times tables of adults at restaurants who are ruining my meal because they are laughing and carrying on very loudly, but nobody makes a stink about that.

That article is irritating.

[MeganW]

China ITA with you. I have a 1yrold DD (almost 2) that can sit through a 2hr dinner at a sushi restaurant and albeit there will be a mess everyone else in the restaurant will NOT be disrupted by her. I would say almost everytime I go out in public I see at least one child often times with 2 parents or a parent and older sibling (this isn't an issue of a mom/dad with a lot of little ones and no help) acting l ike someone just let them out of a barn and I ALWAYS look at the parent and not the child and think wtf is going on here. We've gone from the victorian extreme that children should be seen and not heard to children are people too and we don't have the right to correct them. i think this is also often a case of parents not knowing any better. A girl I work with says you should have to get a permit to have children because some people just can't handle it. Anyway I've gone off on a rant but I think instead of banning children and attacking them we need to look to their parents, support them, educate them, and help them to understand what is Truly acceptable behavior. ITA there are places where children do not belong and should not be taken but it is essentially up to adults to make that judgement.

[newmommy]

Goodness Gracious!! What's Next? People will be complaining about Kids being too loud at Disney World!!!!!

Parents have it WAY too hard these days

[annettemarie]

We have a Greek restaurant with a sign on the door that says "Well Behaved Children Only". They used to have a sign that said "No one under age 8 admitted." I've never gone there.

I feel mixed about this. On the one hand, I do think our society treats kids like dirt. You see it all the time and they're constantly being forced to the bottom of a rather long list of "other" priorities.

On the other hand, I've gone to movies where children run across the front aisle screaming (and these weren't kids movies either), had my child bullied by other children at the park or train table at the library, and been at restaurants where children are literally throwing food that has landed on my table.

I don't think it's the kids, necessarily. I think it's the parents. And I don't believe good parenting equals quiet kids. My own bunch can be quite noisy. But if my two-year-old is shrieking at a restaurant, my hubby or I will take him out so he can play and be happy without disturbing everyone else. Or, if I'm alone, I'll leave if I have to.

The problem with stories like this is they lump together the ridiculous with the sublime. A kid making noise while playing with a train table is normal kid stuff, a kid running up and down the aisle of an airplane is not.

Just my two cents.

[newmommy]

I have yet to come across a "Only Well Behaved Kids Allowed" type restaurant. I'm trying to explore my feelings in case I DID and right now, I feel anger bubbling up because it almost feels like a racist statement to me...

Like "No Color People Allowed"...this is how I feel. So, now, having identified my feelings, I would probably Boycott that restaurant.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by newmommy

I have yet to come across a "Only Well Behaved Kids Allowed" type restaurant. I'm trying to explore my feelings in case I DID and right now, I feel anger bubbling up because it almost feels like a racist statement to me...

Like "No Color People Allowed"...this is how I feel. So, now, having identified my feelings, I would probably Boycott that restaurant.

How about "no cell phones allowed" zones? Or "no dogs allowed" beaches?

Those restrictions have been placed on some areas b/c people yapping on cell phones and dogs that aren't leashed/curbed bother the majority of the people that use those areas. Their owners ruined it for everybody with their poor judgment.

Similar idea. It's not that dogs or phones are BAD, per se.

[newmommy]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

How about "no cell phones allowed" zones? Or "no dogs allowed" beaches?

I can understand "no cell phones allowed", it's reasonable: just fold your cell phone up and put it away.

The difference is we are talking about human beings here...

[CryPixie83]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

How about "no cell phones allowed" zones? Or "no dogs allowed" beaches?

Cell phones and dogs aren't people.:

[Fiercemama]

I get PO'ed when I see stuff like this. Its discrimination based on age. Can you imagine if the signs said "no one over the age of 65 permitted". Or just replace "children" with race.

Just one more example of how children are second class citizens in our culture.

There is a restaurant in our neighborhood that has signage that says "children are welcome in our restaurant". Then lists the times and ways in which they are "welcome". This is in an neighborhood with lots of families, where people are quite apt to take their kids out. I don't spend my money there any longer.

I get really peeved when its a supposedly "family friendly" business or place. I work in the arts and entertainment industry. One of our clients has banned kids under 2 from their "family concerts", because their president went to one and found the younger kids disruptive. Its a freakin' children's event! If I take my 4 yo, I expect to have kids bouncing on the seats and generally making noise. Plus it makes it more difficult for families to take their older kids. While we see a lot of shows with DD, I boycott this organization's shows.

Sure, some kids get out of hand. And some parents don't respond appropriately, or take their kids to appropriate settings. Well, lots of adults behave in inappropriate and annoying ways as well. If you are out in PUBLIC, its par for the course. Get over it. Its just that its socially acceptable to say "no kids allowed".

"A person's a person, no matter how small" - Dr. Suess, Horton Hears A Who

[Hoopin' Mama]

That article made me sick.
Sure, I've seen kids acting poorly, and I've shot some dirty looks at some parents because of it. But that is DEFINITELY the exception, not the rule.

"Breeders".

My sig quote came from an essay about this issue. It says that perhaps we should ask these people who exactly they think will be taking care of them in their older age. Who will be their dr's, their lawyers, their financial advisors?

My pet peeve at restaurants is when the hostess looks at me, dh, and ds, and says "Two"?
I just had to get snarky with a hostess the other day b/c she brought us to a 2-top and I requested getting moved to a 4-top. She replied, slightly snotty, "for the two of you"? I had to point out to her that there were indeed THREE of us, and my son eats too. :

[EnviroBecca]

I agree with this reader comment: There are places where kids can make noise, and there are places where they need to adapt to the social norms of their environment. It irritates me when I see other parents acting as if everything their children do is OK because they are children. Generally, these are the same people who speed through parking lots, let their cell phones ring in movie theaters, and get into the express line in grocery stores with too many items.

Rude people are unpleasant to be around, no matter what their age. A child can be forgiven for doing something rude briefly because he doesn't know the "rules" about how we behave in this situation, but it's a parent's job to help the child learn those rules...and if the child can't behave appropriately right now, it is the parent's job to remove the child from the situation if possible and to apologize on the child's behalf.

Hoopin' Mama, oddly enough, we recently encountered the opposite situation: A waitress insisted, loudly and in a tone that implied she thought we were stupid, that the 5 of us (me, toddler, partner, uncle, and teen cousin) could not sit in a booth and would have to sit at a table with chairs and a highchair. We were firm about preferring to have toddler sit between us in one side of a booth, and she eventually relented but kept peering at us as if she was certain she'd have to move us to a table any minute. It worked out fine.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by CryPixie83

Cell phones and dogs aren't people.:

Um, I'm aware of that.

I was just pointing out situations where a few inconsiderate people have ruined it for everybody.

And if you don't think there are inconsiderate parents out there, then I'm afraid that you don't get out much.

I never said that children *should* be banned. I was just trying to explain *why* other people might feel that way.

[TripMom]

I couldn't read the whole article - uggh. I think this is a mixed bag. On the one hand - there is a world out there that has unrealistic expectations of what is appropraite behaviour for a child. On the other hand, there are parents out there that have unrealistic expectations of when and where they should take their child?

FI - Children's section in book store. Its for kids? How can people be annoyed if kids are there being kids? Didn't you invite them basically?

Compare to nice 8 pm dinner out with my DH in nice restaurant. A kid being a kid there would annoy me (BTW - its never happened). But yeah - if I paid for a babysitter for some rare quality time with DH at a nice adult evening meal. What the?

Ditto for the evening movie out to an adult themed movie? Crying baby next to me? I have experienced that - and totally mad. what the? I would never bring my baby to an evening movie (especially with all the THX, Surround Sound Audio stuff now - its so overpoweringly loud) and then let her cry and disturb other movie goers? What the?

How about planes? Well, this is tough. Kids have as much right to travel (constitutionally) as anyone else. And knowing how hard it is to travel with a toddler - let alone more than one - I mean, were the parents "letting the kid run wild" or were they trying to strike a balance between having to physically restrain a tantruming hysterical toddler annoying the whole plane with blood curdling screams v. allowing them to roam a little (hopefully with parent right there?). I mean - which is worse? I've been that parent. And don't tell me kids shouldn't be allowed to fly. That is a non-starter for me . .

It is so situational, I guess?

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by aprilushka

I think it's appropriate to say no kids, or only older kids for example with nice restaurants or anywhere else that doesn't cater to kids and makes a point of that. The bookstore example is ridiculous though-- if you put a train set in a bookstore you can hardly complain about the noise from kids playing with it.

To this point . . . private proprietors have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. Its only public places that can not do so . . . . .

[LeftField]

The most disturbed I've ever been on a plane have been situations with crying babies/toddlers and really loud obnoxious adults. Pre-kids, the babies annoyed me because I had no clue how difficult it is to keep a baby quiet on a 10 hour flight. But it's not like they can really help it. But the adults who are very loudly talking and laughing until 4am on the plane...they know better! They are the ones being obnoxious and inconsiderate. Yet, no one gives them dirty looks when they come on the plane, like the wary looks my (relatively quiet) kids get.

The bookstore thing bugs me, because the bookstore is not the library. It's a place where people are supposed to buy things, not sit in chairs and read stuff for an hour or hog the cafe with their laptops for the price of one cheap cup of coffee. People treat it like the library or their personal office and it's not. My kids may not be talking in whispers but at least we're buying things. That's a personal gripe of mine...I expect my kids to hold hands, walk and be relatively quiet in the bookstore but there's no way I'm asking them to whisper for the freeloaders.

I have seen some pretty poor child behavior in public and I blame that on permissive parenting. I think it's pretty selfish of the parents. We all want to see the newest R rated movie, but if you can't get a babysitter, please don't take your loud baby or traumatized child in the cinema. I had to skip movies when my kids were too little to be there and it didn't kill me to wait for it to come out on video.

OTOH, people are pretty unfriendly to children in some public places. Here is my gripe story. We eat at Panera Bread, because my kids like the bagels. They sit in their chairs and they eat quietly. Their only offense is getting the cream cheese all over their faces. They are, honestly, very quiet and respectful, however. But every time we've ever sat down, the people with laptops (the ones who are renting Panera as office space for the price of one latte) get up and leave immediately. You know, it annoys the crap out of me to have to hear their loud self-important phone conversations on their cell but I'm not leaving over that. But I enter with my quiet boys and the very sight of them drives the laptop people away. . The last time it happened, the boys sat down and started talking...a laptop guy immediately sighed deeply and packed up his stuff. I was so pissed off over his sense of entitlement. We're spending over 10 bucks for a 20 minute period and this guy is spending about 3 bucks for an hour with his laptop. And yet, we're considered the intruders. We're freaking paying customers! : Now, having said that, I wouldn't bring my kids into a darkened coffee house and let them talk really loudly, because that's a self-selected group that shares an understanding of what the environment is supposed to be like there...hushed. But Panera Bread? Give me a freaking break!

Pre-kids, I was one of those annoyed people who cringed when children did more than breathe in public. Post-kids, I'm one of those annoyed people who simultaneously hates permissive parenting but hates having her children treated like sub-human creatures.

[MommaCrystal]

I'm one who agrees that there are situations where children just may not be expected. However, I do feel society is getting less tolerant.

Recently my small group of mommy's, 4-5 women and infants of various ages were meeting at a Starbucks. A man stormed off, whith his laptop, very annoyed. Hmmm... I wonder why?

But worse, FRIENDLY'S! If You don't know it it is the total ideal of a FAMILY restaurant. Colorful murals of the circus on the wall, full kids menu, placematts with crayons to color to the whole bit. They didn't want to serve us. No place for the other ladies bucket seats.