Trying to understand... toys at the playground - Page 8

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by l_olive

I'm not sure what lesson was just taught to my son, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a good one.

Well, how did you frame it for him? Did you talk about how some people haven't learned to respect other people's property? Did you talk about how he felt when the boy wouldn't give the toy back? Did you talk about stealing? Did you ask why HE thought the other boy didn't give back the toy? Did you ask what he thought about the mom's comment?

I guess I'm not so sure that wasn't a good lesson. Not saying that he ever did this, but it probably will help your ds feel more empathetic next time he wants to snatch someone else's toy.

[heartmama]

From the Gentle Discipline Moderators:

This thread is being returned with the following reminder to participants:

A parent using words, explanations and a firm yet gentle return of a toy not belonging to their child is within the boundaries of Gentle Discipline as it is practiced in this Forum.

Both the Gentle Discipline forum and MDC take a strong stance against spanking and physical punishment of children.

Please utilize this forum/thread to share real-life experiences, thoughts and insights rather than to criticize or denigrate. Please also remember that by your participation in this forum, you have agreed to abide by the MDC User Agreement.

Members who feel that any degree of coercion, from buckling a carseat, to returning a taken toy, constitues "bullying" and "aggression" are invited to share their concerns with moderators via PM rather than derail the conversation further.

[abac]

Members who feel that any degree of coercion, from buckling a carseat, to returning a taken toy, constitues "bullying" and "aggression" are invited to share their concerns with moderators via PM rather than derail the conversation further.

Oops! I guess questions have to be through pm.

[abac]

:

[MissRubyandKen]

Second that oops. I took my questions to PM as well.

[heartmama]

Hi, as we said in the reminder, please direct all questions about this issue to a moderator via PM.

From the User Agreement:

# Posting to debate or criticize the MDC User Agreement, or to otherwise discuss the moderators, administrators, or their actions. Constructive criticism and questions for purposes of clarification may be sent through the Private Message feature or by email to the moderator or administrator.

[georgia]

Members who feel that any degree of coercion, from buckling a carseat, to returning a taken toy, constitues "bullying" and "aggression" are invited to share their concerns with moderators via PM rather than derail the conversation further.

Please note that this is not an attempt to silence anyone, but rather a moderation decision made in an effort to keep this thread on the board, rather than have it explode into pointed criticism toward specific members.

This is a moderation decision, not a personal vendetta. Thanks for your cooperation.

[sleepies]

hard question really.

i encourage my child to give the toy back.

yeah, they should also not take the toy home with them...without permission. Yikes!

teaching to share takes effort though. on all parts.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

I have not yet read Unconditional Parenting, but have several aquaintances who are very into it. One said something on her blog recently that she never takes a toy away from her child if he snatches it from another child at the playground. When I see her next, I think I'll ask her about it, but maybe in the meantime someone can explain this to me.

If your child takes a toy from another child... wouldn't you require them to give it back if it belongs to the other child or the other child had it first? I can see talking to your child and encouraging them to give it back, explaining that their snatching has upset the other child ... but in the end, would you really just say "oh well, he doesn't want to give it up?" I don't understand this at all, and I don't think it's appropriate in a playground setting particularly.

In a private playdate setting, I think the natural consequence of such repeated snatching would be that I would no longer invite that parent and child over. But playgrounds are different. In a playground setting, I think I would take the toy from the snatching child, and give it back to my child. And I would avoid the snatching child as best we could after that. If the parent got upset, well, I'm following the child's logic exactly (snatch toy, now it's mine to do as I like), and if she had no problem with her child employing it, then why would she have a problem with an adult employing it?

Also, if her child didn't want to give up a toy my family owns when we're leaving the playground, I'm still going to take it home with me in the end. If her child keeps it, it's robbery or theft as far as I can see.

So someone give me the other side of this scenario, please.

The OP specifically asks for the rationale for not taking a toy from a child's hand.





Pat

[EviesMom]

Originally Posted by l_olive

"well, what do you expect ME to do? He won't give it back to me either!"

I would have said "If you don't return my property, you can either pay for it or I will call the police." And I would do that. Really, he couldn't just walk out of a store with their property unless his mother paid for it. So why should he be able to walk off with yours?

Pat--yes, I did ask so I could try and understand. I get the concept much better now than I did before. It's not something I would ascribe nor aspire to personally, but I certainly respect it.

What would your response be if your child took my child's toy at the playground, refused to return it, and I said you would need to pay for it because we were leaving?

Also FYI--I did ask my acquaintance, and she basically hasn't run into a situation where her son couldn't be distracted to something else or convinced to return someone else's property, yet. She said she wasn't sure what she would do in that situation. And her toddler is pretty young yet.

[EviesMom]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

Has it taken 15 minutes for anyone's kid here to give the toy back who doesn't practice taking it away?

I think this is what my friend is hoping will be the case with her son, and that there won't ever be a scenario where he totally refuses to return a snatched toy.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

I would have said "If you don't return my property, you can either pay for it or I will call the police." And I would do that. Really, he couldn't just walk out of a store with their property unless his mother paid for it. So why should he be able to walk off with yours?

Pat--yes, I did ask so I could try and understand. I get the concept much better now than I did before. It's not something I would ascribe nor aspire to personally, but I certainly respect it.

What would your response be if your child took my child's toy at the playground, refused to return it, and I said you would need to pay for it because we were leaving?

Also FYI--I did ask my acquaintance, and she basically hasn't run into a situation where her son couldn't be distracted to something else or convinced to return someone else's property, yet. She said she wasn't sure what she would do in that situation. And her toddler is pretty young yet.

I believe children have a reason for their actions and that a solution that meets the needs of all can be created. Personally, I can't imagine a child NEVER releasing the toy from his hand of his own accord. Our son at 3ish understood if something wasn't our car, wasn't our yard, wasn't our toy, was our house, was his chair, was his lovey. And children younger than that don't usually do anything for more than about 10 minutes before they drop it for something more interesting. Do you (generic) believe a parent would leave a park with someone else's toy intentionally? I can't actually believe that would happen. I can think of many 'what ifs'. What if a child took something from my purse, what if a child ate from our lunch bag, what if a child pushed someone at the top of the slide? There are always what ifs, but I don't believe that modelling taking things from anyone's hand is necessary.

I would pay for the toy before leaving a store. We would find some substitute toy that was mutually agreeable or we would discuss it and find a solution that didn't involve taking it from our son's hand. I would get their name and number and return the toy later. I would give them a replacement toy if the other child wanted to trade. Or I would pay for the toy before leaving the park. I would wait until our child was ready to let go of the toy. Does anyone honestly believe the 2/3/4 year old is going to hold on to the toy indefinitely? It doesn't even seem like a real "what if".




Pat

[octobermom]

Personally, I can't imagine a child NEVER releasing the toy from his hand of his own accord.

We see it all the time here (not with my child) but with kids around the apartment.

I would pay for the toy before leaving a store. We would find some substitute toy that was mutually agreeable or we would discuss it and find a solution that didn't involve taking it from our son's hand.

And if you had no money to pay for the toy if the manager said please don't let him play with that then what?? I'm obviously missingsomething because I simpily fail to see how gently removing a toy or something not belonging to your child from them is soo horrible. : I'm not suggesting going BAD NO and snaching it away

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by octobermom

We see it all the time here (not with my child) but with kids around the apartment.

These are children whose parents practice AP and non-coercive discipline?

I think people are reacting to hypothetical situations that do not seem to be arising in families who parent this way.

My kid knows that I'm on his side and the information I give him is generally for his benefit. So when I say to him, "Listen buddy, we need to give this little guy the toy back, his family is leaving." He's cooperative. He understands the consequences and social norms of these situations now--b/c we have done lots of talking, problem solving, modeling, etc. since he was wee little.

[abac]

Originally Posted by scubamom

I also believe that if a child experiences having things taken from their hand they are more apt to grip it for dear life.

And this is one of the reasons I don't do it. Not long ago, I went to gently take something from ds and he clutched it against his chest as hard as he could. I immediately took my hand away and asked him if I could please have it, and he handed it to me.

I also watch 2 other children (who's mom is also on MDC) and recently my ds grabbed something from the other boy. The other boy was holding on tight and they were about to get into a tug-of-war. I suggested to the other boy that he let go and ask for the toy back the next time this happened. Sure enough, next time he did exactly that and my ds immediately handed the toy back. Everyone was happy and we didn't have a tug-of-war. The other boy (who is older) didn't at all mind releasing the toy and asking for it back, because he got it back.

[ZeldasMom]

About how to get your child to give up the toy, if words weren't working, I might try gently and firmly hold my hands on the toy so my child wasn't able to play with it either. Hopefully this would help make the toy less appealing and my DC would let go.

There have been some times when my child was doing something unacceptable and my approach has been to say "X needs to happen. You can do it on your own or mama can help you. If you haven't done it by the time I count to 3, mama will help you." I say this quietly and gently and matter-of-factly, not in a scolding or threatening tone. If my 2 1/2 yo DS doesn't comply by the time I have counted to 3, I do physically intervene, which I rarely have to do.

[ZeldasMom]

Originally Posted by abac

Not long ago, I went to gently take something from ds and he clutched it against his chest as hard as he could. I immediately took my hand away and asked him if I could please have it, and he handed it to me.

I do agree that it is best not to physically intervene and to find a way to use words if at all possible. I try to focus on being fexible and emotionally open with my child at times like these. Also, I come at the conversation with my child with the assumption that it will work to talk to him about the situation.

Still, I think with young toddlers, sometimes you do need to physically intervene. To me Alfie Kohn is most useful once your child is a tad older.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by abac

And this is one of the reasons I don't do it. Not long ago, I went to gently take something from ds and he clutched it against his chest as hard as he could. I immediately took my hand away and asked him if I could please have it, and he handed it to me.

I also watch 2 other children (who's mom is also on MDC) and recently my ds grabbed something from the other boy. The other boy was holding on tight and they were about to get into a tug-of-war. I suggested to the other boy that he let go and ask for the toy back the next time this happened. Sure enough, next time he did exactly that and my ds immediately handed the toy back. Everyone was happy and we didn't have a tug-of-war. The other boy (who is older) didn't at all mind releasing the toy and asking for it back, because he got it back.

This is exactly what my dd is (slowly) learning. Most of the time, ds just wants to play, so he snatches something from dd. If she tries to snatch it back, he either runs for it, cackling, or gets in a tug of war. If she makes eye contact and asks him in a normal voice so he can understand, 9 times out of 10 he returns it.

But I thought this discussion was also about what to do if other children take your child's toy.

[Lucky Charm]

Originally Posted by abac

And this is one of the reasons I don't do it. Not long ago, I went to gently take something from ds and he clutched it against his chest as hard as he could. I immediately took my hand away and asked him if I could please have it, and he handed it to me.

I also watch 2 other children (who's mom is also on MDC) and recently my ds grabbed something from the other boy. The other boy was holding on tight and they were about to get into a tug-of-war. I suggested to the other boy that he let go and ask for the toy back the next time this happened. Sure enough, next time he did exactly that and my ds immediately handed the toy back. Everyone was happy and we didn't have a tug-of-war. The other boy (who is older) didn't at all mind releasing the toy and asking for it back, because he got it back.

May i ask (Gently, I swear!) ask why the child playing with the toy should let the toy go and have to ask for it back? I am not sure what message is being sent to the snatcher. The child is taking something that either isnt his at all (like say at a playground) or something another child is playing with (like say at a playdate at my house, or at pre-school). Isnt that child being coerced? Isnt *he* being forced to do something he doesnt want to, which is give up his toy or one he is playing with?

How should the child ask for said toy? Is it with please and thank you? Can the word "mine" be mentioned? such as: "Thats mine, give it back?" Or should it be more generic: "I was playing with that, please give it back." Is the word "mine" in and of itself bad? Territorial? How do we effectively teach the snatcher that its generally wrong to take things that arent yours? If we arent addressing the issue of taking whats not ours, then how will the snatcher learn that we dont do that? Because in reality, we (general we) dont take what isnt our because its wrong. I do not take Jane's book at the park because its hers, no matter how much I might want it. It is wrong to take things that arent ours. If we arent holding the snatcher accountable for their behavior and it doesnt *seem* to be when the child who had the toy snatched should either let it go to avoid a tug of war and then ask for it back, or wait while the snatcher process giving it back, how will they ever learn that its not OK to grab another childs toy?

[octobermom]

These are children whose parents practice AP and non-coercive discipline?

Umm I seriously doubt it there are no parents period I'm the only one who thinks its necessary to keep my 3 year old in my view. : but I'm no sure what what has to do with it??

My kid knows that I'm on his side and the information I give him is generally for his benefit. So when I say to him, "Listen buddy, we need to give this little guy the toy back, his family is leaving." He's cooperative. He understands the consequences and social norms of these situations now--b/c we have done lots of talking, problem solving, modeling, etc. since he was wee little.

I overall agree but the OP from waht I remember (been so long ) wasn't refering to a parent reacting fast and taking a moment to gently guide a toy from their childs hands its was what is they WONT give it back. and yes I have seen children including my own who are raised very gently an AP that simpily want to keep the toy. and oce again I simpily fail to see how removing said toy gently and giving it back makes mea horrible parent and is detrmental to both my child and the others. :