Trying to understand... toys at the playground - Page 9

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by sweetbaby3

May i ask (Gently, I swear!) ask why the child playing with the toy should let the toy go and have to ask for it back? I am not sure what message is being sent to the snatcher. The child is taking something that either isnt his at all (like say at a playground) or something another child is playing with (like say at a playdate at my house, or at pre-school). Isnt that child being coerced? Isnt *he* being forced to do something he doesnt want to, which is give up his toy or one he is playing with?

How should the child ask for said toy? Is it with please and thank you? Can the word "mine" be mentioned? such as: "Thats mine, give it back?" Or should it be more generic: "I was playing with that, please give it back." Is the word "mine" in and of itself bad? Territorial? How do we effectively teach the snatcher that its generally wrong to take things that arent yours? If we arent addressing the issue of taking whats not ours, then how will the snatcher learn that we dont do that? Because in reality, we (general we) dont take what isnt our because its wrong. I do not take Jane's book at the park because its hers, no matter how much I might want it. It is wrong to take things that arent ours. If we arent holding the snatcher accountable for their behavior and it doesnt *seem* to be when the child who had the toy snatched should either let it go to avoid a tug of war and then ask for it back, or wait while the snatcher process giving it back, how will they ever learn that its not OK to grab another childs toy?

Well, isn't snatching it back just teaching your child that force is okay? I mean, it's kind of like asking why you shouldn't let your child hit a child who hit them.

I don't think my dd learns that it's okay that someone snatched a toy from her. By trying to prevent her from re-snatching, she gets the message quite clearly that it's NOT OKAY to snatch. She feels the wrongness of the other child's action, and then she learns the more appropriate behavior. Maybe the other child will, too.

I think condoning your child snatching her toy back is condoning a message of vengefulness. I want my child to learn to turn the other cheek, so to speak.

[Ceinwen]

I'm feeling confused now - maybe what I'm thinking is completely off base.

Now, while some here may say they have *never* seen this happen, I'd honestly like to know what you would do if another child had a toy that belonged to your child, would not give it back, and the parent refused to intervene? Because, believe it or not, *I* have seen this happen.

Also, I was the one that said I would willingly remove a toy from another child's hand. When thinking about that really - it seems to me that it would be an invasion of that child's right to personal space, ykwim? And I wouldn't want someone doing that to my child either.

Maybe it's a hypothetical situation you'd have to actually be in; that way you could see how the conversation would evolve and how the child & parent would respond.

I'm learning a lot here.

[Magella]

"Grabbing Our Way to Peace: responding to tugs of war and other battles of daily life” by Inbal Kashtan

A small excerpt from the article:
"When a “grabbing incident” takes place, however, we don’t usually stop to think about our values and wishes for our children. While some of us let the children work things out for themselves, most of us intervene — to determine who had the object first and to make sure it is returned to that child; to remind or enforce a general rule about sharing or taking turns; or to administer a consequence such as a “time out.” Yet while these interventions may provide momentary relief, I believe they undermine our ability to meet our own and our children’s deeper needs.

What can we do if we want to use grabbing as an opportunity for all of us to learn to live in peace, to meet all our needs, and to internalize kindness, cooperation, and compassion? Nonviolent communication (NVC) offers a way to do that. (For a brief explanation of NVC, visit our [what is nvc] page.) I’d like to illustrate with an experience I recently had."

[Lucky Charm]

Originally Posted by natensarah

Well, isn't snatching it back just teaching your child that force is okay? I mean, it's kind of like asking why you shouldn't let your child hit a child who hit them.

I don't think my dd learns that it's okay that someone snatched a toy from her. By trying to prevent her from re-snatching, she gets the message quite clearly that it's NOT OKAY to snatch. She feels the wrongness of the other child's action, and then she learns the more appropriate behavior. Maybe the other child will, too.

I think condoning your child snatching her toy back is condoning a message of vengefulness. I want my child to learn to turn the other cheek, so to speak.

I do not condone snatching it back (although my son did this). My question is more about the snacther. How do we teach that child that its not OK to snatch when we are telling the child getting snatched that he should let go and ask for a toy that was his in the first place? I know what the child being snatched from is learning but it doesnt seem to me that the snacther is learning anything if we are allowing a child to be upset while he processes what he's going to do. His action is wrong by taking the toy from another. And again, are words like "mine" and "give it back" wrong? are they assertive or aggressive?

[octobermom]

ell, isn't snatching it back just teaching your child that force is okay? I mean, it's kind of like asking why you shouldn't let your child hit a child who hit them.

I don't think anyone is suggesting snatching it back. : I wont allow my DD to hit a child who hit her I might though come put my arms around her and both comfort and restrain her from lashing out. similiar to if my child took something not theirs. I would go yank if from her hand yelling NO! I would come to her level reflect her wanting the toy explain its not her to play with and that I will help her return the toy. That sometimes means needing to physically remove it thats diffrent from grabbing.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by sweetbaby3

How do we effectively teach the snatcher that its generally wrong to take things that arent yours?

I don't do things because someone deems them right or wrong. Who is the judge of that for another person? I am not the judge of what is right or wrong for our son, either. I choose my actions based upon my own moral compass. Our son does the same. I model that I base my actions on how they affect other people, including and most especially how my actions affect our son is how he learns regard, respect and to honor others. So, by modelling regard, respect and honoring him or another child who grabs, he has a *choice* to see that using words, patience and non-physical means of getting our needs met with requests works. I don't want to model the opposite because I trust that he learns more from my actions than my words.

So, I would focus on my observations of the *impact* on others without attributing responsibility for other's feelings. I choose not to impact others in a manner that is hurtful, to the best of my awareness and ability. Please see the first link in post #16 of this thread for a template conversation. Or read the NVC link that Sledg just posted.





Pat

[Nurturing Mama]

I'm joining this discussion late; it has been interesting to hear both sides. I would also intervene by taking the toy from my child to give it back to the child he took it from, if all else failed.

Originally Posted by scubamama

I would get their name and number and return the toy later. I would give them a replacement toy if the other child wanted to trade. Or I would pay for the toy before leaving the park. I would wait until our child was ready to let go of the toy. Does anyone honestly believe the 2/3/4 year old is going to hold on to the toy indefinitely? It doesn't even seem like a real "what if".

I get that this is a hypothetical, and you've never actually been in this situation, nor do you expect to be, but none of the above solutions would be acceptable to me if a child grabbed my son's toy at the park. Nobody's leaving the park with his toy. I'd step in to get it back if I had to. It just isn't morally right to take something from somebody else without returning it. I love the idea of respecting a child enough to give the toy back when he or she is ready, but in reality, there is another child involved, and their rights should be respected just as much as the first child's.

Also, if your child wouldn't let go of a toy in the store, you would really buy it? That's very respectful of your child, but I can't wrap my head around it. I'd be broke if I bought every toy my kid wouldn't let go of in the store. I try being playing playful, I try being creative, compromising, etc., and sometimes he just won't let go. Buying it because he won't let go seems completely unbalanced to me. He has no way of understanding that buying that toy might mean eating nothing but beans for the rest of the week, and that eating nothing but beans for a week isn't too great for his body, or mine, or my husband's.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by zoesmummy

I'm feeling confused now - maybe what I'm thinking is completely off base.

Now, while some here may say they have *never* seen this happen, I'd honestly like to know what you would do if another child had a toy that belonged to your child, would not give it back, and the parent refused to intervene? Because, believe it or not, *I* have seen this happen.

Also, I was the one that said I would willingly remove a toy from another child's hand. When thinking about that really - it seems to me that it would be an invasion of that child's right to personal space, ykwim? And I wouldn't want someone doing that to my child either.

Maybe it's a hypothetical situation you'd have to actually be in; that way you could see how the conversation would evolve and how the child & parent would respond.

I'm learning a lot here.

I've definitely never had this happen to me. If my child grabbed another child's toy, I am willing to physically remove it from their hands and return it.

If another child, especially a stranger, snatched a toy from my child, I would not physically remove it. I would try to talk to the child, try to talk to the parent, like the pp did at the pool, and do everything I could to negotiate it back. But I wouldn't forcibly take it.

[eggplant]

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better.

Not sure why - but the last sentence in this quote just really upsets me and makes me feel very sad. So your child's need to work through a tantrum/misunderstanding is more important than the heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged?

That's how I read it too, but my response was more of anger/irritation than sadness. I don't think my daughter's feelings are more important than other kids' feelings. If she's in the wrong, having taken another child's toy, then it seems to me that it is simply not our right to take as long as we want to work it out, to help her not be upset about giving it back, etc. The other child wants his/her toy back, and it's not up to us to decide that child should share, or should wait.

If someone takes my child's toy, I expect that child's parent to intervene, immediately. If the parent doesn't, I will. I'll say to the other child something like "that's X's toy, and she was using it" or "and she didn't say you could take it." And then "so you need to give it back to her now." I don't think I need to go find the other child's parent to intervene - I think that parent should be paying attention, and it's not my place to search for other parents in this situation. If that other parent objects to my telling their kid to return my kid's toy, that's too bad. The parent should have intervened first. If the other parent takes too long negotiating with the other kid, I will intervene again, and tell that parent "look, I realize that you're trying to work this out with your kid, but in the meantime, my child wants her toy back. We need it back now. Please either have your child give it back now or give it back to us yourself." And personally, I would have no problem taking it from the other child if that still didn't work (or if there was no parent there to intervene). I don't think that's "snatching" and i don't think it's comparable to hitting a child to teach not to hit. I think telling a child "this is my child's, and she asked for it back, and you need to return it now," while gently taking it back (the other child not having returned it the first time you asked) is a very reasonable response, and if anyone complained to me about my touching their child, I'd simply say that they should have been there themselves to intervene, and that their child took my child's toy and wouldn't return it, and that wasn't acceptable.

So, I think the OP and I had a similar response to that situation, and that the poster who actually encountered it was right to be fine with her daughter's taking her toy back.

OTOH, I was very surprised at another part of one of her posts, and especially so that no one else responded to it:

Sharing when kids are this little, is so hard anyway. There are so many takes on what is fair and what's not fair. I probably drive other moms nuts. Our family rule is that if my daughter has a toy or is using a swing or whatever, it is her turn until she is done. Lots of moms want to time turns--Jimmy's turn for five minutes, dd turn for five minutes--but we just don't do that. If my daughter is in the swing, say, and someone wants to use it, I will ask my daughter if she is done and if she's not, I'll say, "She's using it right now. I'll let you know when she's done." And then I make sure I DO let the child know when she is done.
I know, though, lots of moms don't approve of this.

That would make me so crazy!! If your daughter were on a swing at a playground, and my daughter was standing there waiting to go on it, would you really not at any point intervene? You'd never point out to your daughter that someone else was waiting, and that the swings were for everyone? Wow. Would that still hold true if some other kid let YOUR daughter take over the swing when she had been on it? So, if my child were on a swing, and your child was waiting for it, and I asked mine (or she volunteered) to give yours a turn because she'd been on for awhile, and your child clearly was waiting for the swing....would you let her stay on indefinitely then? Even when my child was waiting for her turn again???

IMO, playground equipment is for everyone, and it's incredibly obnoxious to hog any piece of equipment to the exclusion of other kids' getting to use it. If my daughter and I have only half an hour at a playground, and swings are her very favorite thing to do, is it really okay with you if she never gets to use them because there are kids who will stay on for more than half an hour?

I'm not suggesting that kids need to give something up the instant someone else asks, or someone else wants something. If my child had just started on the swing, I certainly wouldn't think she should get off instantly because someone else comes along. But I think it's very reasonable to say, "she just got on the swing herself, but she'll be off soon so you can have a turn also" and then, yes, in five or ten minutes, remind her that other children are waiting.

It's not quite similar to the toy-snatching situation, in that the toy was clearly the possession of one child, and the other child had no right to it at all. But I do think it's similar in terms of not putting my own child's feelings ahead of other child's feelings as an automatic response, and wanting to teach my child that our actions affect others, etc.

Originally Posted by scubamama
I would get their name and number and return the toy later. I would give them a replacement toy if the other child wanted to trade. Or I would pay for the toy before leaving the park. I would wait until our child was ready to let go of the toy. Does anyone honestly believe the 2/3/4 year old is going to hold on to the toy indefinitely? It doesn't even seem like a real "what if".

I get that this is a hypothetical, and you've never actually been in this situation, nor do you expect to be, but none of the above solutions would be acceptable to me if a child grabbed my son's toy at the park. Nobody's leaving the park with his toy. I'd step in to get it back if I had to. It just isn't morally right to take something from somebody else without returning it. I love the idea of respecting a child enough to give the toy back when he or she is ready, but in reality, there is another child involved, and their rights should be respected just as much as the first child's.

Saw this after I posted, and ITA. There's no way that'd be okay with me! If your child takes my child's toy, it's just not up to you to decide your child is keeping it!! Offering to return it later or pay for it is fine, if I'm okay with that, but if I say no, that's just too bad for you - it doesn't belong to you, and it does belong with us, and you just don't get to make that decision to keep it, regardless of your own plans to reimburse or return later. If my kid wants her toy back, you will arrange to get it back to her right then, or I will arrange for that myself.

[Lucky Charm]

OK. Pat, I understand you not judging.

But according to your own moral compass, and not societies or anyone elses, is taking something thats not yours right or wrong?

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by EviesMom

In a private playdate setting, I think the natural consequence of such repeated snatching would be that I would no longer invite that parent and child over.

That is not a "natural" consequence. It is a "logical" consequence. Its not natural because its a consequence that involves you doing something (i.e. refraining from inviting them). Just fyi -- those 2 get confused a lot.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by sweetbaby3

I do not condone snatching it back (although my son did this). My question is more about the snacther. How do we teach that child that its not OK to snatch when we are telling the child getting snatched that he should let go and ask for a toy that was his in the first place? I know what the child being snatched from is learning but it doesnt seem to me that the snacther is learning anything if we are allowing a child to be upset while he processes what he's going to do. His action is wrong by taking the toy from another. And again, are words like "mine" and "give it back" wrong? are they assertive or aggressive?

Well, I guess I think they would generalize the lesson from what they hear you telling the other child. My children have. I don't think that my ds thinks it's okay that he snatched the toy when I insist that my dd ask for it. I use language that includes a lot of "we"s, so I think he gets it. It's mostly a self-control issue for him.

If this is just some stranger that you've never seen before, you probably aren't really going to have an effect on their behavior, nor do you have that responsibility. You want to help YOUR child learn to behave appropriately.

[octobermom]

Originally Posted by scubamama
I would get their name and number and return the toy later. I would give them a replacement toy if the other child wanted to trade. Or I would pay for the toy before leaving the park. I would wait until our child was ready to let go of the toy. Does anyone honestly believe the 2/3/4 year old is going to hold on to the toy indefinitely? It doesn't even seem like a real "what if".

Never give me a note like that Are you serious?? (I'm being serious) maybe you have an amzing amount of money and can buy your child out of these situations which I feel sends its own bad message but we can't. Toys here are chosen for my DD with care and we don't but them often, while I don't expect you to be responsible for my income its NOT your place to decide that my child can't have back before we leave (and I honestly feel it should be sooner) whats rightfully hers. So I guess you have no resposonbility when it comes to explaining to MY child why she can't have HER toy back?? Why she needs to wait. So I feel that anychild going to hol in indeffiently umm no but nor do I see any reason to have another child leave with your property and I certainly wouldn't allow mine to do so. Offering to trade buy or replace my childs toy is just plain rude IMHO. Well offering isn't but assuming I'll need to make the choice is and IMHO corosion.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Nurturing Mama

Also, if your child wouldn't let go of a toy in the store, you would really buy it? That's very respectful of your child, but I can't wrap my head around it. I'd be broke if I bought every toy my kid wouldn't let go of in the store. I try being playing playful, I try being creative, compromising, etc., and sometimes he just won't let go. Buying it because he won't let go seems completely unbalanced to me. He has no way of understanding that buying that toy might mean eating nothing but beans for the rest of the week, and that eating nothing but beans for a week isn't too great for his body, or mine, or my husband's.

We did have a situation one time when ds wanted something and I didn't have the funds that day. It was something that he had wanted in the past but hadn't been discussed in a while, so I really didn't feel it was a big issue to him. But, he was tired and *really* wanted it. This happened about 3 months ago and was the very first time that he had ever wanted something that we really were not prepared to buy or discuss the pros and cons and come to an agreement. Frankly, I think I made it an issue by deciding that *I* didn't think it was "worth the money". Usually we discuss what he likes about a toy, I connect with him about what he wants to do with the toy and we discuss ways we can meet his desire to have his needs related to the toy met. We rarely buy anything retail. I am a big consignment shopper or discount buyer.

Anyway, I didn't stuggle with him about it. We talked about the best way to get the toy most affordably, when we would do that, we called dh to check e-bay, and we talked about the cost compared to other things that he also has on a running 'Wish List' and my concerns regarding the cheap plastic expensive aspects. We agreeably left the store without the toy. Hundreds of other times, he has picked up toys, we have discussed the pros and cons and he decides that he doesn't want it, or we plan for it or seek it out through discount stores. I believe the key is that he *trusts* that we will find a way to get the things that he wants and needs, if not immediately, when we can.


OT, sorry.



Pat

Pat

[octobermom]

Again it must be nice to be able to buy your child whatever they "want' even cheep stuff. Some of us just can't do that, We can't do Ebay or anything else plus exactly how does that work with say a 10 month old?? : My child knows when we are going inot a store its not to by her things she just doesn't ask anymore. I'm sure its because I've destroyed her spirt though. :

[abac]

I think a big difference between some people's POV and my own is that I don't consider it "wrong" for a 2 or 3 year old child to take a toy from another child.

[abac]

Everyone stop posting so fast.

[eggplant]

Originally Posted by abac

I'm frankly quite surprised at what some people would do to retrieve a snatched toy, (I'd give examples, but then I would be openly disagreeing with someone else's parenting. I've already been asked to edit because of this, so reread the last couple pages if it's not clear what I'm referring to.). While I don't like the expression "pick your battles," it applies here IMO. Some things are just not worth it. We are talking about toddlers, 2 and 3 year olds who are still learning about the world. Sometimes it is better to walk away, even if that means the other person "wins," (for those who see it that way.) It's interesting how differently we all see this, because I think it (never giving in and refusing to back down until a toy is returned,) models materialism, among other things, and that is not what I want to model.

I don't see it as modeling materialism as much as teaching my child that I will support her, and not leave her to fend for herself when others take her things or do other things to her she doesn't like. I don't think wanting your own things is inherently bad, or is necessarily "materialism" the way I usually think of it, which is focusing on stuff to the exclusion of other things.

I wonder if you take the same "pick your battles" approach for people who might want YOUR things? If not, what does it say about your views of your right to your own possessions vs the rights of your child to hers?

I think a big difference between some people's POV and my own is that I don't consider it "wrong" for a 2 or 3 year old child to take a toy from another child.

I don't think it's "wrong" in the sense that the child means something bad by doing it, or should know not to. I do think it's wrong in that it's not the child's to take or to keep, and it's up to us, the adults, to teach the child that. AND, to ensure that the child whose toy was taken doesn't lose her toy because of its being taken.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by TripMom

That is not a "natural" consequence. It is a "logical" consequence. Its not natural because its a consequence that involves you doing something (i.e. refraining from inviting them). Just fyi -- those 2 get confused a lot.

I think an argument can be made either way. if you don't act friendly you don't have friends. sounds natrual to me.

[Ceinwen]

I'm frankly quite surprised at what some people would do to retrieve a snatched toy, (I'd give examples, but then I would be openly disagreeing with someone else's parenting.

Again - I think there is some disparity between just a bucket or sand shovel in the local sandbox at the park, and a child's favorite doll or stuffed animal.

Because (like I mentioned previously) my flexibility (and my child's) over an unimportant toy would be a lot greater than if my daughter was shrieking for her 'teetee baby' - cause you can bet there'd be words over that!

scubamama - I'm sorry. I'm trying really, really, really hard to read what you're writing carefully... but it's still coming off to me as completely unreal. You would honestly try to just return a toy to another child that yours was unwilling to give up? At a later time? Or offer money for it?

I am all for conversation, allowing kids to work on issues, giving toddlers/preschoolers extra room for understanding, etc. - but that just does not make any sense. If another child had my child's toy and I was leaving the park/group/etc. - I would demand it back (from the parent, excluding the child at this point) or I would be calling the police. At that point it would be theft...

But, that's all hypothetical (again) and I can't see that happening! :