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Trying to understand... toys at the playground - Page 4

post #61 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by octobermom
suck it up and wait while the person who took it decides their ready to give back whats rightfull the others anyways???? Thats NOT empowing.
This is what I was referring too as not being the only option. There are many other choices, of which, this is only one.
post #62 of 204
If anyone is missing their family's lawnmower, don't look at me
post #63 of 204
Quote:
All we can do as parents is teach OUR kids how to react. Or we can react for them, if that is what we chose. But, even if we are reacting for them, we are still teaching them. I prefer to teach my children to problem solve.
This I agree with though I will still be the advocate for my child. I will watch her emotions and if I need to I will "step on" and retake her property (ussually by getting the parent to help) its the idea though that I should wait around for even why someone decides the do or dont want to return something or that I should wait around while My own child decides..

Deanna
post #64 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgia
If anyone is missing their family's lawnmower, don't look at me
post #65 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twocoolboys
This is what I was referring too as not being the only option. There are many other choices, of which, this is only one.
Okay : I'm totally lost? WHats another option????

Deanna
post #66 of 204
So if we all met at the park would this scenario be reasonable to everyone? I am very curious now how this would work!

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.

This is roughly what happened at every positive discipline playgroup we attended.
post #67 of 204
I haven't gotten through all the posts, but thought I'd just add what I would do. I would tell my DC that the toy belonged to the other child and ask/encourage them to give it back. If that didn't work, the "trade" option works pretty well for us. DS "trades" the toy back and in turn gets to play with something else. A trade-off of sorts. So far, this has worked very well for us. We use it mainly when DS has accidently gotten ahold of something we don't allow him to have - a pen in the living room for example - we just ask him to trade us the object for the favor of another, more appropriate toy.
post #68 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by octobermom
Its NOT up to YOU (emphaizng not yelling ) to decide how patient MY child needs to be. I teach and will teach my child that people are more important than things. It is NOT okay for her to violently grab back anything or for her to push bite or otherwise be aggressive. But honestly I just don't get this idea that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one" Their is IMHO a big diffrence controlling emotions and being the victum.
Deanna, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I don't think that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one."
I believe that if my child takes something from another child and the other child is upset by it, my child should give it back. I insist that he does. I insist by telling him that he needs to give it back. I don't expect immediate compliance (he is only 2, afterall.) I will also ask if he wants me to give it back for him, and hold out my hand for him to put the toy into. (Often, this is all the encouragement he needs.). I wait maybe 10 seconds. I say again that he needs to give the toy back. I continue to gently insist until he gives it back. The thing I don't do is take it from him.

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better. I will do what I can to get the toy back to the upset child as quickly as possible.

If ds was the one who's toy had been taken and he was upset, I would help him figure out ways to get his toy back.
post #69 of 204
I don't see how not allowing my child to be a victim equates to not teaching him to have control over his emotions. I didn't imply that my child has any right to take a toy back from another child w/o first trying to ask for it back politely. That is always the first option. However, if the other child refuses to give back a toy that is rightfully my childs I don't expect my child to sit around and wait for the other child to decide when he's ready to give it back either. If the parent's aren't going to step in and insist that their child give back the toy, than I will. I will do it as kindly and politely as possible. I will try to spare as many tears as I can, however, I will not allow anyone's child to bully mine. It is not fair to my child to have to sit patiently by while watching another child play with a toy that HE was just playing with and that HE didn't offer up to the other child because that child has made the decision that he's not ready to give it back yet. I would not allow my own children to behave in that manner and I won't allow them to be pushed around by other kids also. I'm not labelling kids as bullies here, either. I don't think that the child taking the toy is necessarilly being a bully, he is being a toddler. However, if you teach that child that he doesn't have to give up what doesn't even belong to him until he's ready while another child is standing by waiting and crying and upset than you are not only teaching your child how to be a bully but you are teaching him that his feelings are more important than the other childs.

All of my older kids do have great coping skills. I think that the reason that they have good coping skills is partially due to the fact that I don't teach them to sit idley by while being picked on by other children. I don't expect exquisite coping skills from a 3yo. I expect responsible parenting.
post #70 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.
Yup. This is what my group of friends generally does too.

My two year old has been on both ends of this issue, and no matter what side she is on, I find myself empathizing with her and wishing the other child would be more flexible. I think it is human nature to empathize more with our own children, and I think this can cause some conflict at playgroups.

My toddler has two toys that she is very attached to right now, and she insists that they come everywhere with her. I don't allow other children to play with them without her consent, but she knows that if we are going to play with other kids, and she doesn't want to share, the toys have to go up high/in the bike trailer/somewhere out of reach.

It is not equivalent to someone taking my knitting/lawnmower, because children do not have the same impulse control that adults do. If I knew that by taking my knitting out, I was risking my friends really really wanting to grab it and being unable to control themselves or sitting in jealousy and grief while I knitted, I would choose to leave my knitting at home.

I also attempt to reason with my child if she is the "snatcher," while the other child waits, but I do not expect them to wait an inordinate amount of time, and am not above prying my child's white knuckled hands away, and returning the toy to the original child, explaining gently all the while about how that is so and so's toy, maybe they will share it in a minute. That is not my first resort, but I've done it, and I think it's okay.
post #71 of 204
Okay, so I just read Pat's post (#16) and read the first link she posted. She managed to say there what I've been trying to say here in so many posts. (And much more eloquently than I could say it.)
post #72 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama2mygirl
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.
I really like this story. Everything is situational. I find that there are times when I might jump to correct my sons behavior a little too soon, more so because I'm afraid of what the other kids mother will think of me. At play-dates we try to let the kids figure it out on their own as much as possible. I feel that is important for them to sort things out, and it's great to witness a two year old handing a toy over and saying "XXXX's turn" At the park with strangers I will encourage my son to ask if I see him eying a toy. 95% of the time it gets shared.
post #73 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess
At play-dates we try to let the kids figure it out on their own as much as possible.
I'm cautious with this, because while it is great when it works, sometimes letting them sort it out means the more assertive child gets their way while a less assertive child gets bullied.
post #74 of 204
Quote:
The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better.
Well, for me it wasn't about making people feel better, I chose to guide him through a demonstration of our responsibility to other people. There were a few times that my son refused to give up an expensive toy in a store, or a breakable object he grabbed that friend asked him to put back. When he refused to let it go I put it back for him. He was temporarily upset, but his lasting impression was the responsibility we have to other's feelings as well as our own.
post #75 of 204
That's not what happened to my daughter. The example you posted lasted, what, two minutes? In my real life example, it took around fifteen minutes.
How on earth did my poor girl get to be the bully in this!?!?!?
Or, what did someone say--she was acting the same way the original child acted?
The first time it took this mother fifteen minutes to take the toy away--because the child never was ready. The second time, her toy was taken, the mother began what even I assumed was going to be a LONG LONG talk, which the first time involved singing two songs to cheer the child up, my daughter saw what was coming and after she ASKED FOR HER TOY BACK and it wasn't returned, she took it back.
How on earth is that wrong?

Of course toddlers all take toys. My daughter has more or less stopped at three but even now she still sometimes takes. I am the mom in the example. I say, "X was playing with that. You can have a turn when X is done. ...X is telling you it was his turn....You need to give it back to X or I can help you."
It doesn't ever take more than a minute. I am not exaggerating my example. It took a really long time while my child was sobbing because her favorite toy was taken away.
So, since she did ASK the child for the toy back and nothing happened what was her next option?(For the people that think this was WRONG.)
post #76 of 204
Quote:
Deanna, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I don't think that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one."
I believe that if my child takes something from another child and the other child is upset by it, my child should give it back. I insist that he does. I insist by telling him that he needs to give it back. I don't expect immediate compliance (he is only 2, afterall.) I will also ask if he wants me to give it back for him, and hold out my hand for him to put the toy into. (Often, this is all the encouragement he needs.). I wait maybe 10 seconds. I say again that he needs to give the toy back. I continue to gently insist until he gives it back. The thing I don't do is take it from him.

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better. I will do what I can to get the toy back to the upset child as quickly as possible.

If ds was the one who's toy had been taken and he was upset, I would help him figure out ways to get his toy back.
Actually I'm like 99% in agreement BUT I do feel its my responsiblity to make sure that my child (assumeing it was ashe who took it) returns to toy quickly yes I will consider the fact shes 3 but I will not wait around more than a minute or so (considering the others reation as my guide). Now honestly I can only think of two situations where simpily saying , "That belongs to X please give it back" hasn't resulted in her complience but it has come up. I'm not questioning those few moments of normal toddlerim but rather when the child decides they wont give it back. Is their EVER a time when you'd "insist"?
post #77 of 204
Quote:
How on earth did my poor girl get to be the bully in this
I don't think anyone has said that. If it took the other family more than a minute to give back her toy, I'd expect her to react this way too.
post #78 of 204
See this link about children identified as "bullies". http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ng#post5762126 Post #6. Seeing the "grabber" as "wrong" doesn't help resolve the conflicting needs.

Judgement doesn't help. Help doesn't judge.

I want to help to identify and facilitate meeting the "grabber's" underlying needs in addition so that *grabbing* isn't meeting an underlying need. He is only *2* (in this hypothetical) btw, not "expected" to have impulse control, or empathy awareness. Or ask his parent to facilitate.

What if a parent is not there to "take back" the toy? I would want our child to ask for help resolving the conflict, not to grab it back. Two "wrongs" don't make a "right" as they say. I would hope that an adult could demonstarate alternative tools of resloving conflicts than taking what you want (regardless of the reason). I believe that there are many alternatives that honor both *children's* needs that make *taking* the toy from the child's hands unnecessary.

This is the link that abac referenced regarding modelling "using our words" instead of grabbing. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=grab Post #8.


Pat
post #79 of 204
Quote:
Is their EVER a time when you'd "insist"?
I do insist. I just don't do it in a physical way. And I would insist in a physical way if my child was in danger of being seriously hurt.
post #80 of 204
But what if, even with the help of an adult, the grabber still refuses to give the toy back??? How long do we sit by and let our own child feel like his or her feelings are less important than the grabbers? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to compromise his or her toys simply because the grabber is unwilling to give the toy back? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to stifle his or her feelings so that another child might not be upset? That IS creating a bully/victim situation in where one child is being forced to set his or her own feelings aside so that the more agressive child gets what he or she wants. It's not fair to do that to children.
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